The Delphi Murders: First Person: A Juror: Part Two

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[00:01:45] Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of children.

[00:01:50] We recently got to interview someone who served on the jury in the Delphi murders case.

[00:01:55] We asked her all about the experience, her impressions of the attorneys and the witnesses and the evidence,

[00:02:00] and her views on how the jury came to convict Richard Allen of murdering 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams.

[00:02:07] The Murder Sheet is the first outlet to do an interview with a juror in this case.

[00:02:11] You may notice that this episode is a bit more edited than our previous first-person interview series episodes.

[00:02:17] The reason for that is we wanted to take care not to include any identifying information about this juror.

[00:02:23] This will be the second of two episodes featuring our interview with this juror.

[00:02:28] So go back and listen to part one first if you've not done so already.

[00:02:32] These episodes will both be released on the same day, so check out the second part as well.

[00:02:38] These episodes are part of our first-person interview series.

[00:02:41] We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with first-hand experience in the Delphi case as possible in the coming weeks and months.

[00:02:49] If you had a direct role in this case and are open to talking to us, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:02:56] This is part of our ongoing effort to report on the Delphi murders.

[00:03:00] For many years, we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in this case.

[00:03:06] That all changes now.

[00:03:08] My name is Anya Kane.

[00:03:10] I'm a journalist.

[00:03:11] And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:03:12] I'm an attorney.

[00:03:13] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:15] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:03:21] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:23] And this is The Delphi Murders.

[00:03:25] First Person.

[00:03:27] A Juror.

[00:03:28] Part 2.

[00:04:11] Now we will get back to our talk with the juror.

[00:04:14] One witness that stood out to her in particular was Master Trooper Brian Harshman.

[00:04:20] I really like Harshman.

[00:04:22] And I think professionalism goes a long way for me.

[00:04:25] And all these guys were, not all, a lot of these people with, you know, ISP and the CSI, things like that.

[00:04:34] They all were very professional.

[00:04:36] So there wasn't anyone that I saw that I, like, discounted other than Sarah Cartball.

[00:04:42] So I think kind of as a whole, we decided to just throw that one out.

[00:04:48] Not that she's an, like, she's a hard-to-believe person.

[00:04:52] But I think the defense did a good job trying to discount her.

[00:04:58] And I'm not saying that that's anything bad for her.

[00:05:02] Because I, who knows what anyone would do on that situation.

[00:05:05] Like, I'm not a bad person or anything like that.

[00:05:09] But as far as when we were evaluating evidence, how can we use that word?

[00:05:17] We really wanted to make sure we just believed it without any shadow of a doubt.

[00:05:23] So anything that anyone was really doubting, we would say, okay, well, what if we didn't believe that?

[00:05:28] Like, would that change the outcome, you know?

[00:05:31] So kind of let's talk a little bit about Oberg.

[00:05:35] Oberg, I think for me, again, Dead Will's Advocate, I, and this is kind of a deliberations thing, I guess, also Test 20.

[00:05:46] I kind of threw out the, I guess it's the whole science of the bullet.

[00:05:51] It wasn't Oberg as a person at all.

[00:05:54] I think she was so professional and did an amazing job.

[00:05:57] She had so much information.

[00:05:59] She's so smart.

[00:06:00] And she believes in her science.

[00:06:03] And that's what I try to explain to everyone at deliberations is like, I don't think she's intentionally lying to anyone.

[00:06:09] I just can't say that I believe for sure that the evidence is exact.

[00:06:20] I don't know.

[00:06:21] So when they brought in, oh, heck, I forget his name, Warren, Dr. Warren, I know that, you know, he evaluated it with just using photos and definitely not supposed to do that.

[00:06:35] And I don't know if it was the defensive cross on Oberg or Warren's testimony, but one of those or maybe both just really had me skeptical on the bullet.

[00:06:48] But so in making my decision, I didn't consider it at all.

[00:06:52] Yeah.

[00:06:52] Can you tell us a little bit about what the deliberation process was like and what sort of issues people were considering and weighing?

[00:06:59] Yeah.

[00:07:00] Okay.

[00:07:01] So something really cool, which I'm sure you guys may even know this already.

[00:07:06] So what Judge Gold tells us, you know, the instructions for the jury, that's really all we get.

[00:07:14] So no one tells you how to do anything else.

[00:07:18] And they brought us in there to bailiff and they said, figure out who's your foreman.

[00:07:25] And then that's the only person that can communicate like what we need through the bailiff, essentially.

[00:07:34] So the foreman can only talk to the bailiff and they don't tell you how to come up with a foreman.

[00:07:39] They're just like, figure it out.

[00:07:40] We can't tell you.

[00:07:41] Do it.

[00:07:43] So you're like, wait.

[00:07:45] So it is really interesting.

[00:07:47] We have to just kind of figure out a way to do it.

[00:07:50] I just figured there was like just a specific way you're supposed to come up with a verdict and come up with a foreman and all that good stuff.

[00:07:57] But I guess it's however you guys decide to do it.

[00:08:01] So what we did for our foreman was like a vote, essentially.

[00:08:08] People nominated who they sought and then we just voted for who we wanted.

[00:08:14] The foreman we had, he was the absolute best choice.

[00:08:20] And I didn't personally vote for him.

[00:08:22] So he did a really, really good job.

[00:08:24] And he had been on juries in the past.

[00:08:26] So it felt like a good decision.

[00:08:29] It was.

[00:08:30] That juror himself is just a very professional, well-soaken person.

[00:08:35] So he did a really good job.

[00:08:37] What we did very first, which I think was so necessary and I think got us to our decision and answered any questions we had throughout deliberations, was we made a timeline of everything that we heard.

[00:08:52] And during this time, we kind of, we put everything on it at first.

[00:08:58] And then if we kind of questioned that evidence, we would kind of remove it.

[00:09:04] So like Sarah Carbo, for example.

[00:09:07] But we did it on the map, like the big map that they, oh, and I don't know.

[00:09:12] I think in the podcast you said the evidence was all like in the courtroom.

[00:09:18] And we had all of the physical evidence in our jury room with us.

[00:09:22] It was in like big containers.

[00:09:26] So anything of like the maps or anything that wasn't like video evidence, we had in there with us.

[00:09:31] We could go through and do whatever we wanted.

[00:09:33] Yeah.

[00:09:33] So we had the big picture and then the frame.

[00:09:35] So we found it there and we put little sticky notes on what times and what happened.

[00:09:39] So we could see on a map like when they were passing and what time and when the phone quit moving and things like that.

[00:09:45] To kind of just put it all in order, essentially.

[00:09:50] And then we did it again just on paper.

[00:09:53] So not like as much of a visual timeline, but more.

[00:09:56] I guess it's still a visual timeline, but just not on a map.

[00:09:59] That pretty much took a long time.

[00:10:01] It took the rest of that first day and then a little bit of that next, that Friday, the following day.

[00:10:08] We finished it up in the morning.

[00:10:10] Every day we would do like a vote.

[00:10:12] The alternates had to be in the room, but they weren't allowed to say anything at all.

[00:10:17] And their notes were not allowed to be used.

[00:10:20] I thought the whole time, like I commend the alternates.

[00:10:22] That would have been the total worst situation to have to do all of that and then not even be a part of the end.

[00:10:28] Like the grand finale, which it was really hard mentally to even be a part of.

[00:10:34] So maybe it's not that bad, but to have to sit there and not even be able to voice an opinion.

[00:10:39] I don't know if I could have done it.

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[00:14:25] You said you took several votes.

[00:14:27] We did not vote that first day at all.

[00:14:30] Okay.

[00:14:31] We voted the next day, and that's when it was 9 to 3 and decided 9 guilty.

[00:14:36] And that first full day of deliberation, we again finished up the timeline.

[00:14:42] And then it was our foreman's idea to split into groups.

[00:14:46] It was groups of three, so we had four groups.

[00:14:49] And each group had, you know, something they were working on.

[00:14:52] Group went through the confessions on the sheets made by the suicide companions.

[00:14:56] So that wasn't my group.

[00:14:57] One group did all of the phone calls.

[00:15:00] And then another group, which was mine, did the confessions to Dr. Walla and Dr. Martin,

[00:15:05] along with noting all of the meds that he was on, like when they started and then when they're administered,

[00:15:12] things like that, and how they correspond with all of the different confessions that he had.

[00:15:16] And I'm sure a lot of people can kind of argue, too, that, like, that doesn't matter.

[00:15:20] But a lot of us were truly considering, you know, maybe, you know, it was an act of psychosis that caused these confessions.

[00:15:29] We were just at least allowing that to be a possibility.

[00:15:33] Right. And as you know, because you've been through this, but when you're dealing with, you know,

[00:15:39] if there's two explanations and you feel both are plausible and one is favorable to the defendant, you have to go with that one.

[00:15:45] Absolutely. Yep.

[00:15:47] So this took a few hours and then we took a break for a break.

[00:15:52] Oh, yeah, this is another cool thing.

[00:15:53] So we could take breaks kind of whenever we wanted.

[00:15:56] They said, like, also if we wanted, like we were just at a stalemate, wanted to leave early.

[00:16:02] It was very relaxed and made to make us comfortable.

[00:16:07] So whenever we wanted to take a break, our foreman would just notify the bailiffs.

[00:16:12] And then we were allowed to walk around the rotunda.

[00:16:16] We could go in the courtroom and do whatever.

[00:16:20] We could just walk around, which was so cool for me because I got to sit in like the prosecution chair and kind of see like what their view was of everything.

[00:16:29] And yeah, so that was pretty cool.

[00:16:32] Just something silly.

[00:16:33] What did you think of the courthouse itself?

[00:16:35] I'm just curious.

[00:16:36] Like, I always found it kind of beautiful, but I'm just I mean, you guys are in Fort Wayne.

[00:16:39] Oh, my God.

[00:16:40] Your courthouse kicks butt.

[00:16:41] So I'm just curious what what you guys thought.

[00:16:44] I thought it was beautiful.

[00:16:45] I actually after this whole experience.

[00:16:49] And I decided I'm going to go to law school because I I have a passion for law.

[00:16:55] And it was a lot of it was just the courthouse, the way it would make me feel being there.

[00:17:00] I know I said a lot about the fashion.

[00:17:02] Like I thought that was really cool.

[00:17:03] And just being there every day and seeing everyone.

[00:17:06] It was just really cool.

[00:17:08] And part of it was the courthouse.

[00:17:10] I thought it was beautiful.

[00:17:11] Same with Fort Wayne, too.

[00:17:12] I think all the courthouses with the marble and everything is gorgeous.

[00:17:16] I know one of the jurors, she loved the lights in the courtroom so much.

[00:17:20] She had Jason take a picture of them so that she could show her family.

[00:17:25] That's so cute.

[00:17:27] It's amazing that you don't go to law school now.

[00:17:29] That's that's very exciting.

[00:17:30] Yeah, I'm really excited.

[00:17:33] Yeah, good for you, honestly.

[00:17:34] So the deliberations actually took several days.

[00:17:36] Was that a frustrating process?

[00:17:39] I thought it was necessary.

[00:17:41] I feel like, you know, we we were there for listening to everyone for like three weeks.

[00:17:46] So I felt, you know, a few days to consider everything that we've heard is 20 like or is required almost.

[00:17:58] I know, towards the end, like, there wasn't at any point like a time where like, okay, like we're soon all gonna vote the same, you know.

[00:18:09] There wasn't a point where it felt like that.

[00:18:11] So like we went through all the confessions, things like that.

[00:18:16] This is that Friday, sorry.

[00:18:18] We took the break.

[00:18:20] The rest of the day we spent discussing things and our opinions.

[00:18:24] And that was the hard part, difficult part sometimes.

[00:18:28] Some people just aren't the best at working with groups.

[00:18:31] So people talking over others, things like that.

[00:18:34] We went through that a little bit.

[00:18:36] A lot of Tuesday would just seem to be like just a lot of talking and consideration.

[00:18:44] That was, again, that was the day we took a vote at the end and it was three undecided, nine guilty.

[00:18:51] So that day we decided on Friday, we're like, we're going to need to see.

[00:18:56] They wanted us to let them know if we're going to need to see video evidence like ahead of time because they had to get both counsels in there, the judge, all of that.

[00:19:04] And then however long it would take them to get it up on the screen.

[00:19:08] So about all things considered, they wanted us to like give a day in advance.

[00:19:12] So we then just said, well, let's figure out, you know, what we're wanting to see video wise and can I go from there?

[00:19:19] So we decided we wanted to watch both of the interviews again.

[00:19:24] Mainly Holman, I think.

[00:19:26] Or no, I think they mainly wanted to see more.

[00:19:29] I wish I could remember why.

[00:19:31] There was like something specific in the interview they wanted to see again.

[00:19:33] And then we also watched the video, the Bridge Guy video that was edited or remastered or whatever they did to where, you know, so it stays upright and whatnot.

[00:19:47] And then there was one that it was just the audio of the Bridge Guy video.

[00:19:52] You mentioned that you had some issues with that interrogation or interview video with Holman and Alan that played out during the deliberation process.

[00:20:04] Can you walk us through some of that?

[00:20:06] So, again, having like no experience on like seeing really interrogations or any experience with that kind of thing.

[00:20:15] I felt the, especially Holman, he just kept going on and going on and going at it.

[00:20:23] And even though he said, I'm done, I'm done, which granted, like, why don't you just get out and walk out?

[00:20:28] But I was just putting myself in that position.

[00:20:31] I was like, if I was being asked those questions and I didn't know how that got there, how am I going to explain, you know, how it did if I don't know?

[00:20:41] So I just felt like it was like overdone in a sense.

[00:20:45] But I mean, that's just coming from me, you know.

[00:20:48] What did you make of the confessions?

[00:20:51] You said that was one of the areas where that you kind of took a lead on.

[00:20:55] Yeah.

[00:20:56] The, of course, what stands out to everyone is the van.

[00:21:00] And that's part of the deliberations that, let me see.

[00:21:08] So, so Saturday, we pretty much like watched all of the video evidence and that's all we had time for.

[00:21:16] We even stayed late because the videos were pretty long.

[00:21:19] It being a half day.

[00:21:20] So we didn't really have much of a discussion that day.

[00:21:25] But we did take a vote after we watched all the videos.

[00:21:28] And there was that day eight guilty and four undecided.

[00:21:34] So you went from nine to three to that eight to four.

[00:21:38] Yes.

[00:21:39] So clearly, you know, someone else felt that way about the videos, the interviews, interviews.

[00:21:48] The benefit of that being Saturday, we had like a whole weekend to really think about it, like on our own.

[00:21:57] Just really.

[00:21:58] And that's what I did.

[00:21:59] I went straight home.

[00:22:00] I wrote pages upon pages in my journal.

[00:22:02] I narrowed it down to like, what do I know for a fact?

[00:22:06] And what do I believe?

[00:22:07] And then, well, are those things enough to warrant unreasonable doubt?

[00:22:14] And that's kind of what I pondered that whole weekend.

[00:22:16] So I think that really benefited us, having that and then going back Monday.

[00:22:21] Okay.

[00:22:21] So to go back to the confession, one of my things that I had that stood out to me in a sense of thinking that he could be guilty is the mention of the van.

[00:22:34] Outside of that, I didn't put really any weight to anything else, although it is very eerie.

[00:22:41] And looking back, I think like who would confess that many times that doesn't actually do that?

[00:22:50] Like I can't think of how that would ever happen.

[00:22:55] But again, it's really hard when you're asked to, like, it's not just something that's no big deal if you get it wrong.

[00:23:04] You know, there's a lot of weight to it.

[00:23:08] Yeah.

[00:23:08] I'm really struck with the thoughtfulness that you put into this.

[00:23:11] And what you're saying makes so much sense.

[00:23:13] Like, yes, we can all sit here now and say that's an awful lot of times to confess.

[00:23:18] But you don't, even if there's a slight issue with that, you need to set it aside and focus on the things that, you know, matter more, I guess.

[00:23:29] Something I have written in here, there was at least one person.

[00:23:33] I don't know if there were more, but posing the question of, well, if it wasn't Richard Allen, then who could it have possibly been?

[00:23:40] There wasn't anyone else wearing those clothes?

[00:23:43] There wasn't anyone else that, you know, seemed suspicious.

[00:23:47] And where I was at, it just seemed like a wrong question to ask because that's not what this is about.

[00:23:51] We're not seeing as it could be anyone else.

[00:23:54] Is there enough evidence showing that it's him specifically?

[00:23:58] Not, is there other evidence showing that it could have been someone else?

[00:24:03] So I really tried to just focus on the mission.

[00:24:07] At some point, someone alluded to, we don't need to make a decision out of sympathy, portraying that people that are undecided to feel bad.

[00:24:15] And that really got me that day.

[00:24:17] There were some other things that this juror kept coming back to.

[00:24:20] So I know one of them was Rayleigh Voorhees, Paul Richard Allen.

[00:24:25] Richard Allen, Paul Rayleigh Voorhees.

[00:24:27] Richard Allen said he was there at bedtime window.

[00:24:31] So he said what he was wearing, and it was this one that calls his bridge guy.

[00:24:38] So once you get to that, there's really no disputing that Richard Allen is bridge guy.

[00:24:46] That's what I think we got to first.

[00:24:48] Like, does anyone disagree that Richard Allen is bridge guy?

[00:24:52] You really, no one did.

[00:24:54] You really can't.

[00:24:55] So if he's bridge guy, how do we know if he was the kidnapper and murderer?

[00:25:05] Which, after realizing he's bridge guy, was pretty easy to add all of those things together.

[00:25:11] But really, just things that he reported himself is really what got me closer to guilty.

[00:25:20] It sounded like the timeline was perhaps more important than any of the sort of flashier confessions, maybe with the exception of the van.

[00:25:29] Absolutely.

[00:25:30] And you said you didn't even take the bullet into consideration because of your doubts about the science.

[00:25:35] Yes.

[00:25:37] I'm curious.

[00:25:38] You mentioned kind of people kind of getting a little bit on each other's nerves.

[00:25:43] Did it get heated?

[00:25:44] How did people come back from that?

[00:25:46] It was a lot more relaxed than I thought it would be.

[00:25:49] I thought there would be a lot more turmoil than there was.

[00:25:52] There's really this one time where not everyone was getting a chance to talk.

[00:25:56] You know, like when you have a big group of people, there's certain people that talk most of the time.

[00:26:02] And we're running into that.

[00:26:04] And it's like, we need everyone to have discussion, you know.

[00:26:08] So after that, that was pretty much it.

[00:26:11] And there wasn't really any hard feelings.

[00:26:13] I mean, we all realized that we're totally random people.

[00:26:18] You know, we're not friends.

[00:26:20] And we're stuck in this hotel together, like for so long.

[00:26:24] And we're around each other all the time.

[00:26:26] The only people we see, like, of course, there's going to be a little bit of something, you know, feelings.

[00:26:31] But outside of that, it's a total different relationship.

[00:26:35] Because it would be hard to be on top of someone that you don't really know and constantly be around them and have discussions with them in general.

[00:26:46] So, you know, even if it was, you know, your spouse.

[00:26:49] So we realized, you know, we're around each other a lot.

[00:26:52] We're probably going to have feelings.

[00:26:54] But now that we're not in that situation, our feelings for each other are a lot different.

[00:26:59] That makes so much sense.

[00:27:01] You're able to, like, separate that.

[00:27:03] Yeah.

[00:27:03] It's like the heat of the moment.

[00:27:05] Exactly.

[00:27:06] We're pretty cordial, like, really, most of the time.

[00:27:11] What was the feeling like in the room when you realized, wait, we're anonymous now?

[00:27:17] Oh, my God.

[00:27:17] Yeah.

[00:27:18] So I have a lot to say about that.

[00:27:20] That Monday was the best deliberation discussion day we had had.

[00:27:25] We, again, like I said, we had the weekend.

[00:27:28] So I know at least for me, I had the points that, like I said, that I know for a fact that I believe evidence-wise.

[00:27:38] And essentially the people that were undecided, our foreman wanted us to make a list of what we do know and what we do believe.

[00:27:48] So we did that.

[00:27:49] We wrote down those different points.

[00:27:52] And then we had a discussion.

[00:27:56] And we did the opposite, too, of, like, what don't we believe?

[00:27:59] And like I said before, like, does that affect what, that there's still a possibility that written down is guilty?

[00:28:07] Or, you know, do we need to have a discussion about it to see, you know, where it really stands?

[00:28:12] So, you know, the bullet and those kind of things.

[00:28:16] But, yeah, we had just, like, an open discussion.

[00:28:19] The people that thought he was guilty had discussion with people that thought undecided.

[00:28:25] And then we decided to take a vote.

[00:28:28] After I heard the first few guiltees, I just knew.

[00:28:33] Once the last one was read, our foreman, like, couldn't believe it.

[00:28:36] He was like, are you serious?

[00:28:38] Humanimous?

[00:28:39] And I'm, like, crying at this point because I already knew, like, that it was going to be done.

[00:28:43] And just, it was such an overwhelming feeling.

[00:28:46] Just, like, one, that it's over.

[00:28:50] Two, it's deciding is pretty sad.

[00:28:52] But the outcome, like, sucks either way.

[00:28:55] Like, it just was really, really hard for me.

[00:28:58] But even after the jury did its job and came to a decision, there was still a bit of a delay before the verdict was actually delivered.

[00:29:04] They said Kathy Allen was out of town, I guess, and, like, wasn't supposed to be.

[00:29:09] So it took a while for everyone to get there.

[00:29:12] We waited in that jury room for so long.

[00:29:15] And the anticipation of reading the verdict was just so, so crazy.

[00:29:21] They made it to where, like, it was a really big deal of us, like, getting out of the courthouse and into the vans.

[00:29:27] Just because they figured the media would be crazy.

[00:29:30] They literally had us, like, after we read the verdict, like, get up really fast and run.

[00:29:35] Like, seriously run out of the courthouse, like, down the stairs, out.

[00:29:40] And then we get stopped by a train, like, right there.

[00:29:47] That was hilarious.

[00:29:48] Can't escape Delphi.

[00:29:50] Yeah.

[00:29:53] That happened to us the day we were trying to get out to record really quickly so we could do something else.

[00:29:58] So, yeah, we can relate.

[00:29:59] Wow, that's incredible.

[00:30:01] And, you know, you mentioned the overwhelming emotion of it.

[00:30:05] Can you talk us through a little bit more about that?

[00:30:07] Like, was anyone scared to almost hand down a punishment because they, like, you know, it would mean sending him to prison potentially for a life?

[00:30:15] Were people considering that?

[00:30:16] Or were people, like, what was the feeling?

[00:30:19] Yeah, I think I consider that a lot to the point where it was really hard for me to, I felt like it was maybe, like, almost an ounce of, like, denial or just not wanting it to be the outcome that it is and has to be.

[00:30:36] Like, because I just kept telling myself, like, he's not going to laugh.

[00:30:41] Like, he's going to be really bad.

[00:30:49] Like, he's going to be like, you know, I don't know.

[00:30:54] Like, he's going to be like, you know, I don't know.

[00:31:04] Like, he's going to be like, you know, I don't know.

[00:31:24] For what it's worth, and this is just kind of me talking, I think you guys made the right choice, but it makes me feel so good that you made a choice that was so informed and so based on the facts and not just, like, gut, you know, oh, this guy seems weird.

[00:31:38] You know what I mean?

[00:31:38] Like, that's the fear whenever you're dealing with a case like this.

[00:31:43] You want someone to be convicted for the right reasons, not for nonsense like that.

[00:31:49] Right.

[00:31:49] And they, and we, you're right.

[00:31:54] I mean, we definitely, like, are glad we did that.

[00:32:00] And just, we were scared too.

[00:32:03] Like, we knew we weren't hearing everything.

[00:32:05] Like, because it was pretty obvious in court that there were things that weren't being told to us for whatever reason.

[00:32:12] So, we're like, you know, are we going to, like, find all this stuff out that was hidden from us and then change our minds or, you know, just the what if.

[00:32:21] So, a lot of people are like, I'm not even going to look at the news and the media.

[00:32:25] I'm not going to torture myself.

[00:32:27] But I personally can't help myself.

[00:32:29] So, I've been doing a little too much Reddit.

[00:32:34] Oh, no, no, no.

[00:32:37] Probably unhealthily, yeah.

[00:32:38] But I still do.

[00:32:40] I think we made the right decision.

[00:32:43] I really do.

[00:32:43] What do you think about some of those things not being included in the trial?

[00:32:48] Do you think it would have been helpful to have some of that information?

[00:32:51] Or do you think the judge made the right decision?

[00:32:52] To answer that question fully, I would like to know, like, I know there were other suspects, I guess.

[00:32:59] But my thought is that they know more than we do of, like, things that are possible and could be, you know, a potential suspect and not.

[00:33:10] And if it was found to not have a nexus or whatever it is, then I trust their judgment, honestly.

[00:33:18] Right.

[00:33:20] We were just in the gallery, but we didn't have the added pressure of having to make a decision here.

[00:33:25] And on top of that, though, like, we saw what you saw in terms of a lot of the really horrible images that were presented in this trial.

[00:33:32] And we just wanted to ask, like, how did that affect you?

[00:33:35] How did that affect your fellow jurors?

[00:33:36] Are you guys doing okay now?

[00:33:39] Yeah, good question.

[00:33:43] I, surprisingly, and I'm, like, a really emotional person, so I was honestly concerned going into it about myself.

[00:33:52] But I've been okay.

[00:33:53] I don't think I'll ever forget, like, what I saw.

[00:33:57] I guess there's some kind of feeling of at least we did what was supposed to happen.

[00:34:02] I truly think we were all put there for a reason.

[00:34:06] Like, all the people that were there, like, I've said that from the beginning.

[00:34:09] Um, and I don't know how it's affecting me.

[00:34:15] I haven't really talked to really anyone else.

[00:34:17] I kind of got home and hermited myself for a while, um, just to kind of, I don't know, like, it was too late.

[00:34:25] It was the holidays and things like that, but just to kind of figure out how I feel.

[00:34:31] I did make a really good friend, and we spent a lot of the time throughout the process together.

[00:34:37] And we haven't even had that conversation of, you know, I text her, you know, on sentencing, like, hope you're doing well.

[00:34:45] But it's not really talking about, you know, how we're doing.

[00:34:49] Um, they offered us anyone that wants, um, counseling or anything, they're offering it.

[00:34:56] Judge Goll gave us her information, and we're just supposed to call her if we ever need anything.

[00:35:00] You're kind of emerging back into society after this, and you're seeing all this media coverage.

[00:35:05] And you mentioned kind of going on some of the social media sites to see, you know, what are your thoughts on how it's been covered?

[00:35:11] Do you feel it's been accurate, inaccurate?

[00:35:13] Are there kind of misconceptions?

[00:35:15] A lot of inaccuracies.

[00:35:18] And you guys have even talked about some of them.

[00:35:21] The juror sampled some of the YouTube trial coverage and found it to have been quite inaccurate.

[00:35:26] She was too classy to call out individual creators.

[00:35:31] I, people saying, like, you know, like, Judge Goll telling people things that, like, didn't actually happen.

[00:35:38] Or, um, I saw things of, like, the jurors, like, there were jurors come doing this and that, which was so inaccurate.

[00:35:49] I don't know.

[00:35:50] It's, the general, I haven't, like, I listened to your guys' podcasts, like, from start to finish.

[00:35:57] And that's about all the, like, I've read some articles, which they're more, the stuff I see, like, article-wise and, like, on social media, like, outside of, like, videos and podcasts and things, they're more just, like, attention-grabbing.

[00:36:13] So, they, they're more dramatized, I guess.

[00:36:16] Like, not necessarily incorrect, but they just make it sound way more, like, intense than it really was.

[00:36:22] Things like that.

[00:36:25] Well, thank you for listening to all of our episodes.

[00:36:28] Yeah.

[00:36:28] That was a lot of hours.

[00:36:30] A lot of rambling.

[00:36:31] Oh, yeah.

[00:36:31] Yeah, no, it took me a while.

[00:36:33] And I think you guys did a really, really good job of making sure it was accurate.

[00:36:37] And I think that's important because, you know, you know, you ask, you know, what have I seen that's inaccurate?

[00:36:45] A lot of it is really, like, the comments that people are saying on things.

[00:36:50] Like, that, it's really hard not to, like, comment back.

[00:36:54] Like, you weren't even there.

[00:36:56] You know, like, how could you have, like, this much of an opinion?

[00:36:59] Like, you've only heard what other people said happened.

[00:37:02] So, it's really just the people in society that just think they know everything that happened without even being there for them.

[00:37:12] Absolutely.

[00:37:13] And, yeah, thank you.

[00:37:15] That means a lot that you, what you said about our coverage because, you know, we're not perfect, but we really tried to get it right.

[00:37:22] Because it's important, you know, and it's important that people, this really happened and it's a sad situation.

[00:37:28] It deserves accuracy and respect.

[00:37:32] Was there anything we didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention or you think it's important for people to know?

[00:37:38] I feel like, honestly, I've covered, like, a lot of my experience.

[00:37:42] And it's been nice to talk about it because, you know, I haven't talked about it.

[00:37:47] And I think that starts the healing process.

[00:37:50] And, you know, it didn't, we didn't go through it as, like, humans and all of that.

[00:37:56] Like, our family members didn't die and aren't going to prison.

[00:37:59] But it was still a lot.

[00:38:02] Like, I think we'll forever be poached for it.

[00:38:04] And, like I said, the group we had was amazing.

[00:38:06] Everyone was amazing.

[00:38:09] Our bailiffs were more than amazing.

[00:38:13] Seriously.

[00:38:13] Like, did anything we ever needed.

[00:38:15] And it was really built around making sure we were comfortable.

[00:38:19] I think everyone realized, you know, we were going through a difficult situation.

[00:38:24] And the bailiffs have to leave their families, too, and don't go home and that.

[00:38:29] So, yeah, I think everyone did it right.

[00:38:33] And I'm glad that we can go home and go back to life and feel like we did the right thing.

[00:38:41] Well, I just want to commend you for the thoughtfulness that you and your fellow jurors put into this process.

[00:38:47] And it's just obvious from talking with you how much care you took with the decision.

[00:38:52] So we just want to commend you and thank you for your service in this.

[00:38:55] I know it was really rough for all of you, but I think, you know, we really tip our hats to you for what you guys gave up.

[00:39:04] And, you know, coming together and trying to make an intelligent and informed decision was I just thank you.

[00:39:10] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:39:12] And something funny, too.

[00:39:15] We all believe that we should be off the jury call list forever indefinitely, but only for two years.

[00:39:23] So you might see us again.

[00:39:25] No, that's not fair.

[00:39:29] Yeah, we said Judge Goldis is crazy.

[00:39:31] And he said, well, like she gave us her card and stuff.

[00:39:34] So he said, well, if you do get picked, just call me and I'll get it taken care of.

[00:39:39] Good.

[00:39:40] I'm glad.

[00:39:40] Because I believe you guys didn't ever have to do it again either.

[00:39:43] You really should not.

[00:39:45] Thanks very much to this juror for taking the time to talk to us.

[00:39:48] We so appreciate the care she and her fellow jurors took with their deliberation and commend them for their service.

[00:39:57] Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet.

[00:39:59] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

[00:40:07] If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:40:15] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[00:40:26] If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[00:40:37] We very much appreciate any support.

[00:40:41] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:40:50] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

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[00:41:04] We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:41:11] Thanks again for listening.

[00:41:14] Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about Vaya.

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[00:42:42] Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[00:42:49] Yeah, thanks so much to Acorns.

[00:42:51] Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job, so we really appreciate them.

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[00:44:19] Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quintz, a great new sponsor for us?

[00:44:25] I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket.

[00:44:32] I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quintz products you wear?

[00:44:37] Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters.

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[00:45:03] You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[00:45:06] I think I have, yeah.

[00:45:07] And deservedly so.

[00:45:08] Also, I'm one of those people, my skin is very sensitive.

[00:45:13] So when it comes to wearing sweaters, sometimes something's too scratchy.

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[00:45:27] It's not one of those things where you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great.

[00:45:31] They look great.

[00:45:32] They feel great.

[00:45:33] But yeah, I really love them.

[00:45:34] And you've got your cool jacket.

[00:45:36] I mean, that's a little bit of a – you're the guy who wears the same thing all the time.

[00:45:40] So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk.

[00:45:43] You got something a bit different.

[00:45:44] I do wash my clothes.

[00:45:45] I know you wash your clothes, but I mean – you're filthy.

[00:45:49] You just made me sound awful.

[00:45:51] So no, I wash my clothes.

[00:45:53] But you don't really –

[00:45:54] I launder them.

[00:45:54] You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying.

[00:45:57] So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[00:46:01] Thank you.

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