The Delphi Murders: First Person: Detective David Vido

[00:00:00] We work pretty hard at the murder sheet, and sometimes when we overdo it, we end up feeling, and frankly looking, totally worn out and depleted. If you've ever run into us eating fish sandwiches and looking distressed at the food court, you've probably seen this first hand. That's why we're thrilled about our brand new sponsor, Prolon. Prolon is a science-backed solution that helps rejuvenate you from the cellular level and out. We're talking better energy, improved skin appearance, and fat loss.

[00:00:27] Prolon's Fasting Mimicking Diet is a plant-based nutrition program backed by leading US medical centers. You kick things off with a five-day program where you enjoy snacks, soups, and beverages designed to make your body's cells believe they're fasting. At the same time, you're giving a serious boost to your metabolic and cardiovascular health. You don't have to think about it or worry. Everything is prepackaged and carefully labeled.

[00:00:54] You just eat the food and enjoy healthier blood sugar levels, fat loss, and having more energy. They've found that three consecutive Prolon cycles can reduce your biological age score by 2.5 years and cut your waist circumference down by 1.5 inches. To help you kickstart a health plan that truly works, Prolon is offering Murder Sheet listeners 15% off site-wide, plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five-day nutrition program.

[00:01:21] Just visit ProlonLife.com slash M-Sheet. That's P-R-O-L-O-N-L-I-F-E dot com slash M-Sheet to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift. ProlonLife.com slash M-Sheet. So I like fancy things, which is kind of a problem because I'm the type of person where I also hate to spend a lot of money on myself. That's why I absolutely love Quince. I think you will too.

[00:01:51] And you should absolutely check out this wonderful sponsor of ours. Quince is a brand that is all about accessible everyday luxury. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to menswear to Italian leather handbags to washable silk shirts and dresses, they've got a whole line of products that make life just a little bit more luxurious. But because they cut out the middleman while maintaining a strong commitment to ethics in manufacturing, Quince is able to give you all of that for less.

[00:02:19] Seriously, all Quince items are 50 to 80% less costly than those of their competitors. They only work with premium fabrics in factories that are committed to safe and responsible manufacturing practices. I really love my Mongolian cashmere sweaters. And they start at just 50 bucks. I got the black v-neck sweater and a dark blue turtleneck sweater. I love the way they look and feel. These are right up my alley. They're high quality, highly functional, and so affordable.

[00:02:48] Give yourself the luxury you deserve with Quince. Go to quince.com slash msheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash msheet. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of children.

[00:03:15] It also contains discussion of the sexual abuse of children. For most of us, crimes against children represent the worst kind of crimes imaginable. There's something about sexually motivated predators preying upon the most innocent and vulnerable amongst us that disturbs and horrifies. Some of us have children of our own, but we've all been kids. We all know how trusting and helpless kids are, and we can imagine how shattering it can be when a child's trust is violated.

[00:03:42] Today we're going to talk with a man who worked for years to protect children from a particularly prolific child predator. Detective David Vito worked the case against Kagan Klein. Klein and his cache of child sexual abuse materials came up in the investigation into the Delphi murders. Detective Vito also worked with Unified Command, the group dedicated to seeking justice for Abigail Williams and Liberty German. Detective Vito is an Indiana State Police detective who works out of the Lafayette Post.

[00:04:11] Now that the gag order is lifted, Detective Vito and others are free to speak about their experiences with the Delphi case. Well, a quick disclaimer here. The state police stopped doing new interviews a few weeks ago. We were fortunate enough to have done our interview with Detective Vito earlier in January, before that cutoff. So we did not do this recently, but the information within is still highly relevant. This episode will feature our conversation with Detective Vito. This episode is part of our first-person interview series.

[00:04:40] We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with first-hand experience in the Delphi case as possible. If you had a direct role in the case and are open to speaking with us, email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. This is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders. For many years, we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case. That all changes now. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:05:08] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is the Delphi murders, first person, Detective David Vito.

[00:06:06] So to start off with, can you tell us a bit about your background, sort of before law enforcement and then going into law enforcement? Sure. I come from a law enforcement family. Both my uncles were in law enforcement. One was a federal agent. And then at first, he was actually a Lake County deputy, then a federal agent. And then my other uncle was a police officer. So I came from a law enforcement family.

[00:06:29] Growing up in Northwest Indiana, I always knew I wanted to be a police officer and went to Ball State University after high school. That's where I obtained my bachelor's degree, major in criminal justice and criminology, and a double minor in Spanish and homeland security and emergency management. And while I was at Ball State, I had an opportunity to do a job shadow program with the Indiana State Police.

[00:06:53] So I did the job shadow, met a couple of the troopers who are still really good friends to this day, and just fell in love with it. I had never thought of the state police as a career option until I did that job shadowing program. And I just knew that's what I wanted to do. What was it about it that made you fall in love with it? It was just a culmination of everything.

[00:07:16] It was the, I mainly just worked with the troopers that worked the road, but it was the area that they covered, seeing just so much in such a short amount of shift that we would do. I just knew that's what I wanted and what I wanted to do. So he encouraged me, said, hey, we have a class coming up. He said, I know you're still in college. I think I still had, I was in my junior year, I believe, so I still had a year to go.

[00:07:44] He said, no one makes it on their first time through. Just apply, get through the process, see how it goes. And I did that and ended up making it through on the first process. Started the academy November of 2013 and graduated May 1st of 2014. Once I was done with that, then I got transferred to the Lafayette State Police Post, where I've been assigned ever since. True Crime podcasts are a bit like investments.

[00:08:09] When it comes to your time, you're taking a few spare minutes here and there, tuning in and building up a knowledge base to set yourself up in the future. That way you can cash in and wow everyone with your insights about motions and lemonade when you watch the next big true crime docuseries. Well, Acorns is built a bit like that. It lets you look to the future by helping you start automatically investing your spare money a little bit here and there. You've heard us speak about our wonderful sponsor, Acorns, before. Today's episode is sponsored by them.

[00:08:37] Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing in your future. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now, even if all you've got is spare change. Get started investing in just five minutes. Financial wellness is possible for all of us, no matter how much money we are starting with.

[00:09:04] As small business owners, we know what it's like to start small and build your way up. We also know how hectic life can get. It's why we automate reminders for ourselves for interviews and just about everything else we can. So give Acorns a try and get started on your financial journey today. Sign up now and join the over 13 million all-time customers who've already saved and invested over $22 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to get started.

[00:09:33] Paid not client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet. In our work on this podcast slash t-shirt business, we want to stay creative. We need to get focused. We have to get good sleep or we end up sounding completely ridiculous. Regardless of whatever mood or feeling you want to achieve, you can rely on Vaya hemp.

[00:10:03] It's a veritable Swiss army knife of wellness. Vaya is a company that crafts premium hemp products. Topicals, drops, gummies, vapes, and more. THC of all levels, along with THC-free CBD options. All tailored to a mood or experience. Vaya is the perfect thing to beat those midwinter blues. We have been absolutely relying on the flow state gummies to survive this winter.

[00:10:29] We've been busy with interviews and book writing, so feeling we're maintaining focus and getting stuff done has been crucial to our mental health. Vaya delivers right to your door in discreet packaging. You don't need a medical card. So if you're 21 and older, treat yourself to 15% off. And if you're new to Vaya, get a free gift of your choice with our exclusive code M-Sheet at VayaHemp.com. That's V-I-I-A-H-E-M-P dot com.

[00:10:56] We are talking about the only lifestyle hemp brand. Try Vaya and experience the full spectrum of benefits. Microdosed and perfectly balanced. If you're 21 and older, head to VayaHemp.com and use the code M-Sheet to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Vaya, get a free gift of your choice. That's V-I-I-A-H-E-M-P dot com and use code M-Sheet at checkout. After you purchase, they ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Enhance your everyday with Vaya.

[00:11:24] I ended up finishing my degree after graduating the academy, so I still was able to do that. So, yeah. Tell us a little bit about your career with the state police and sort of that trajectory. So, since I was assigned in 2014 to Lafayette Post, I work as a trooper working the road at the Lafayette District.

[00:11:46] And I did that from 2014 until 2019 when I was assigned to the Criminal Investigations Division because of the Delphi case. And then can you tell us a bit about how you started on the Delphi case and how you were sort of selected for that? So, in going back a little bit on February 13, 2017, I was working the road as a trooper. And it was the next day.

[00:12:16] I believe I was working a mid-shift. And I came out and just was immediately told to head to Delphi. Didn't know anything that was going on. But I was there to provide scene security for the scene and block off the road. And I very specifically remember sitting there in my car blocking the road and seeing all of the officers that were going towards the scene and all the equipment and everything.

[00:12:41] And I look back at that now and I just would never have thought how heavily involved I would be in this investigation. So, that occurred. And then in March of 2017, they started asking other officers to start coming to the command center and running tips because of just the quantity of tips that were coming in. So, I did that for maybe a couple months. I was just running down leads and tips.

[00:13:08] And then eventually went back and worked the road again. And it wasn't until approximately April of 2019, I received a call from First Sergeant Buckley who told me about a temporary duty assignment or a TDY is what we would call it to the Delphi investigation that was going to be a full-time position. It was directly from Superintendent Carter.

[00:13:35] He wanted to make sure that we had someone permanently there full-time working on the case. The lead detective at the time was nearing retirement. So, he didn't want us to just pull out of the case and have no one in its place. So, I was honored at the opportunity to do that and help out any way that I could. So, I accepted that position. What was the experience like of working at Unified Command on a day-to-day basis?

[00:14:03] So, in 2017, I was not a part of Unified Command. It was a separate area in the command center. And we would just usually go in there to grab the tips, leave, work them, and then come back and drop them off. So, in 2019, when I had the honor of becoming part of Unified Command, it was a lot different. I had access to all the information in the case and all the details about the case.

[00:14:28] And I actually had some decision-making abilities compared to just running tips, and that was it. I got to be a part of all the meetings that occurred. And I created presentations and briefed our executive staff and other people that were involved in the case. I still investigated tips. And like I said, I did this full-time, so I was able to do that as well. But the day-to-day was always different. It was investigating tips.

[00:14:56] It was interviewing witnesses, persons of interest, reviewing evidence, phone downloads, collecting DNA swabs, and watching and listening to jail calls for a long time. So, day-to-day was always different. And there was always something to do. When I came into work, it was a difficult part because what did you want to tackle today? What did you want to try to accomplish today? There was just always something that we could have been doing. I have a question about what the case looked like over the years and how it changed.

[00:15:25] And you were there really in the beginning, and then you came into it in an even bigger way later. What sort of things were you doing kind of in both of those different phases of your work on the case? Yeah, so the first time that I was involved in the case in that March 2017 timeline, I was just one of the many officers that were there helping. You would go to the command center. They would have a stack of tips ready to go.

[00:15:47] You would grab five, six, seven of them at a time and just start working through them the best that you could and closing them out and then returning them in and just grabbing another stack and continue working through them. When I came back in 2019, it was drastically different. All of that help had gone away. And understandably, other agencies can't maintain sending full-time people there for years.

[00:16:15] So when I came back, it was pretty much just the core team that was still there. But they also were working other cases, other responsibilities that they had for their departments. So I was the only one that was full-time, specifically just Delphi, and that's it. Tips were still coming in. They consistently came in for years. It just wasn't as thousands and thousands at one time. But they were still consistently coming in over time.

[00:16:44] Can you tell us about how brutal this crime against these two young girls was? It was the most brutal crime that I have ever worked in my career over 10 years. I think it was how the girls were treated during the crime, how they were killed, and how they were left. The only way I can think of it is just truly barbaric, is how I would describe it.

[00:17:15] I honestly can't imagine what they experienced and what they went through. Such a terrible crime. You mentioned some of the public attention. All the tips are coming in. What are some of the unique challenges of working on a case like this? Like I mentioned before, I think just the sheer volume of tips and information coming in, tens of thousands of tips, and each tip, more information was developed.

[00:17:41] You would take that tip and you would investigate it and look through it and gain more information, and that had to be put into a system and to a report. And it was just so much information that I don't think one person could retain all of it. That's why there always had to be a team of people working this, because not one person could know everything. I think another challenge would be in the beginning, the number of law enforcement officers that were there.

[00:18:11] It was appreciated. The help was appreciated. But when you have so many people working one investigation, it's harder to streamline where all that information goes to that core team, because you have so many people. And then, of course, we did have, unfortunately, law enforcement officers come in with their own plans and egos and theories that they wanted to work, and that was frustrating.

[00:18:37] It was a challenge to rein that in and say, no, this is the investigation that we're working in, and we have to do it this way. So it sounds like people would become emotionally attached to their own theory and be kind of really wanting to center that. Is that right? Absolutely. Another challenge was definitely the leaks that happened in the investigation. I think what people don't realize is that every time that there was a leak, that directed all of our energy and attention away from the actual investigation.

[00:19:06] And into where did the leak come from, what information was put out, and how do we answer questions or how do we fix it? And that was a lot of energy and time that gets taken away from the actual investigation. So I want to talk about the Kagan-Klein lead. Of course, that is linked to the Delphi case. It came about because of the Delphi case, but it became its own case in and of itself.

[00:19:33] Can you tell us about how you began working that, I guess? How did that kind of fall on you? Sure. So that investigation started in 2017. I was not involved in the Kline investigation in 2017. And they were two separate cases stemming from the Delphi investigation. You had your CSAM case and the Delphi case.

[00:19:56] It was in the beginning of the summer of 2020 that I was informed about the Anthony Schatz account and the Kline's. Once I started looking into that, I found that charges were never filed for the CSAM against Kagan. And I basically just picked up the case from where it was left off. I had a tremendous help from Deputy Clinton with the United States Marshal Service and Trooper Harshman.

[00:20:26] And we basically just picked up the case where it was left off and worked the Delphi angle to it and the CSAM at the exact same time. We just ran the cases parallel to each other and worked both of them. And eventually we obtained charges for Kagan and got a conviction, which was great. And through that investigation, with the Delphi investigation, we never were able to find any direct evidence linking them to the crime.

[00:20:57] As you mentioned, you got a conviction in that case. The prosecutor you worked with on that was Courtney Allwine. I'm just curious, what was it like to work with her? I cannot say enough good things about the Miami County Prosecutor's Office. Courtney and Jen, they both did an absolutely amazing job on the case. And it truly was an honor to work with both of them. They really are amazing at what they do and very good people.

[00:21:27] I enjoyed working with them and I would work with them on any case at any time ever in the future. I'm curious, you know, I just want to go back a little bit. This question comes to mind in terms of the delay in charges against Kagan. You obviously weren't working in 2017. So is there anything you can say about that, about what prompted that delay? The only thing I, to be honest, have never found a direct answer.

[00:21:54] I think it does stem from how much information was going on at that time, how many tips were coming in, how many people were working the case. And what I talked about earlier about that challenge of directing that stream of information to the core group of investigators. It was so easy for people to find something out and that not make it to where it needed to go because of the sheer volume of information and the number of investigators.

[00:22:22] We keep coming back to this topic of all these tips that were coming in. Ultimately, how helpful were all those tips from the public? I think that the public was very eager and willing to help us any way that they could. And I can't thank the public enough for what they did help us with.

[00:22:46] I think that the public helped at the best that they could with the limited amount of information that we gave them. And I know this frustrated a lot of people. But at the end of the day, we had to keep and limit that information to protect the integrity of the case. I don't think there was anything else that we would or we could have released that would have helped the public provide more information.

[00:23:12] And I think they did what they could with the information that was provided. Now, there was specifically some tips that weren't helpful. We had ones just generalizing would be they would give a tip just with a name. It would just be a first name sometimes, sometimes just a first and last name with no context to it.

[00:23:35] And then we would have tips that would come in that said, for example, I saw a guy at the gas station and there wasn't what gas station. It wasn't when it wasn't what he looked like. It was just that there was a lot of tips that came in that weren't necessarily tips. They were just theories and interpretations of information that we already provided.

[00:23:56] For instance, of the bridge guy picture or the video that was released, people tipped in that they believed that there was a monkey on his shoulder or a raccoon that was actively biting his face as he was on the on the bridge. There were tips that there was a Sasquatch family that lived underneath the bridge and witnessed the murders. And we needed to find them to to be able to follow up.

[00:24:20] And that shows you that we looked at all of these tips and we did encounter some tips that were like that. Good Lord. I want to ask you, going to the to the Anthony Schatz investigation, the Kagan Klein investigation.

[00:24:36] What was I mean, the way that most of the public first heard about that was watching the video of Sergeant Jeremy Pierce and sort of letting everyone know about this account, which was then quickly followed up by the report from Demi Johnson of Wish TV at the time. And I'm curious, what was the decision to have that video sort of go out there? I guess what was I guess the strategy behind that? Sure. At that point, we were starting to run out of leads on Anthony Schatz.

[00:25:05] We had went through we went through multiple devices, tried to obtain as much information as we could. We interviewed multiple victims, multiple witnesses. But what we were finding is that the Anthony Schatz profile had such a reach and there were so many victims and potential witnesses that when we were looking at this phone data three years later that we obtained in 2017 and now looking at 2020. That information, either contact phone numbers or emails were no longer good.

[00:25:35] We couldn't get in contact with people. People would use usernames so they wouldn't use their actual names. So we wanted to reach out and ask the public for help and to reach out to potential potentially more victims or witnesses. So we decided to put out that information. And when we did, we identified many more people that had good information to give to us because of that.

[00:26:01] And then going back to the links to the Delphi case, my understanding and please correct me if I'm wrong in any way. But, you know, the reason that Kagan Klein came up in Delphi was his contact with Liberty German via social media through his Anthony Schatz account. Can you tell us about what kind of contact Liberty had with that account? That is correct.

[00:26:24] The Anthony Schatz profile did have contact with Liberty and numerous friends of hers as well. That was the, I would say, strategy behind the Anthony Schatz account was to start talking to one and then go to the friend group, infiltrate the friend group, start gaining information that only one person would know and start sharing it with the others to try to benefit himself.

[00:26:50] And there were interactions that happened on social media accounts. They either met through social media or, like I said, through a friend group or a friend recommendation. And unfortunately, a majority of the contact between Libby and the Anthony Schatz profile was on Snapchat.

[00:27:10] And because of that, the content of the messages couldn't be recovered due to the nature of the app and at the time, the settings that were being used and the content of the messages just couldn't be recovered. Is it true that Liberty and this Anthony Schatz account were in contact the night before her murder, even if we don't know what was said? That is correct.

[00:28:03] It would make sense for somebody who was communicating with an underage girl who wound up missing and then killed that that person would have that type of search history. Absolutely, that makes sense. In terms of, I know there was something that we reported that was, I think it was that the marathon, he was looking up the marathon gas station in Delphi. Was that true? I believe so. Specifically about that search.

[00:28:31] We were never able to verify why. And then, you know, going on, can you talk about the red jeep story that Kagan told police? Sure.

[00:28:44] When I interviewed, I'd interviewed Kagan multiple times, but when I interviewed him at Grissom Air Force Base, he told us that their red jeep would be in the area during the time of the murders and which also spurred the Wabash River search. He told us that certain items of interest would be found in the river as well.

[00:29:05] And when I was interviewing him and he was telling me this, I already had doubts about the validity of the information he was giving. Reason being is I knew that his phone was being actively used during the time of the murders at his house in Peru. I also knew that there was no red jeep found on the Hoosier Harvest store video.

[00:29:27] But we wanted to make sure that we did our due diligence and we launched the search of the Wabash River, which took a few weeks. And we also located the red jeep and had our CSIs process it. So we just wanted to make sure that we covered that information. Tell us more about the Wabash River search as you're looking for these items of interest. My understanding from I believe the three-day hearing, it was a phone and a knife that were supposedly in there.

[00:29:55] And then like, I guess, what came about from the river search? We did not find any evidence that Kagan had mentioned that would directly tie them to the crime. We found a lot of other phones and knives and firearms that appeared to have been there for three years. And we found a lot of that, but nothing that directly tied them to the crime. You mentioned talking with Kagan Klein at Grissom.

[00:30:24] What's it like just to sit down across the table or whatever from a man like Kagan Klein? It is or it was extremely difficult. Reason being is he with all the times that I interviewed him, he lied so many times on in every interview at every occasion. And even when you showed him contradictory evidence of his lie, he still wouldn't come off that lie.

[00:30:52] And he would just say a derogatory remark and just brush it off and move on. So it was it was extremely difficult to interview someone like that when you're showing them and they just continue continue lying. And after numerous interviews, he was just deemed to be not credible. I'm also curious.

[00:31:10] A lot of lay people may not understand all of the work and effort involved in putting together a case like that and working with the prosecutors like Courtney Allwein or Jennifer Kiefer. Can you just talk a little bit about what that is like to put a case together against someone like Kagan Klein? Sure. It is. It is countless hours put into just one specific investigation.

[00:31:36] You learn pretty much every angle of the case and try to absorb all the information of it that you can. Just just that case alone, there were thousands of images, thousands of videos, thousands of messages, thousands of web searches, not just on one device, but across multiple devices. And putting all of that together in a report to where it actually makes sense and then taking that and preparing for trial and working with the prosecutor's office.

[00:32:06] It takes a lot of time and energy. But at the end of the day, we get the result that we want. Ultimately, of course, the Klein case did not go to trial. He pled guilty. But Allwein and Kiefer put together like a very impressive, I thought, sentencing hearing, essentially presenting a lot of different evidence in order to kind of have that be considered regarding the sentencing. What was it like testifying at that? Absolutely. We were ready to go if it if it was going to go to trial.

[00:32:35] And I have full faith that they would have done Courtney and Jen would have done an absolute amazing job, just like they did at sentencing. I try to be the best prepared I could. It's a lot of information to try to remember when you're up there. And I just wanted to make sure that the court knew everything that I knew about Kagan Klein. And Courtney definitely made it easy because of how well she did at the sentencing.

[00:33:03] And then I guess just the follow up to that is he received a considerable sentence. What was it like seeing the culmination of all the work you did to put away a child predator sort of come to that outcome? It was the best outcome. It was it was the best feeling. You pour a lot of time and energy and effort into something, especially I think crimes against children are are so important to be investigated.

[00:33:31] And I don't think they get as much attention as as they deserve. The team that we have with Chris Cecil, I think those are some of the most amazing people that we have in our department. And also that they're just amazing people.

[00:33:47] It takes a lot to do what they do every day, going through that material, making sure that they prepare it for trial and to get a conviction and to take someone like that off the street and stop them from reaching out to children or potentially abusing children is is the best feeling. Yeah, I'll be honest, just sitting there in that sentencing hearing and hearing all of the details of what he did and hearing the descriptions of the pictures, it was difficult.

[00:34:17] And that was just me sitting there hearing about it for eight hours. You lived this case for months, if not years. How did it affect you emotionally? Absolutely. I never want to take away from the victims in the case and what I go through or what we go through in law enforcement is nothing compared to what what they go through. So I never want to take away anything from them.

[00:34:39] But it is difficult to sit there and look at these images or watch these videos, hear those sounds and then have to type about it, have to pause the video, write about what you just saw or what you just heard, putting it into a report and then replaying it or watching it again at when you're preparing for trial or meeting with the prosecutors.

[00:35:04] Those are, I think, difficult for normal people to see and deal with daily. And that's why I give our team that does that daily so much credit because it's it's a really tough job. I want to switch over to the Richard Allen case now. Can you tell us about Kathy Shank finding the lead on Allen after it had been sort of buried? I'm curious, where were you when you found out? How did that feel?

[00:35:32] Well, first, I have to say that Kathy is probably the most caring, kind and amazing person I've ever met. She literally dedicated years of her life to this investigation and to helping law enforcement any way that she could. And she did this all free of charge and out of the goodness of her heart. She's she's incredible. And at that time, I had actually taken some time off work.

[00:35:57] I needed to just take a step back, get some get some things done that I had to do and take some time off. And Lieutenant Holman had come over and he had told me about the Richard Allen lead. And to be honest, I was shocked. I didn't expect it. And it really turned my taking a step back to, OK, I'm ready to get back. Let's do whatever we have to do and move forward.

[00:36:23] Our understanding is that you were at least one of the detectives in charge of the search of Allen's home. I guess, first of all, is that right? And second of all, what do you remember about that? Yeah, that is correct. I remember it being a very busy day. It started off at the command center where Richard Allen was brought in for the interview. I was not a part of that interview, but I was observing on the television watching watching them interview him. And the first thing I can remember is when he came in and started speaking.

[00:36:52] That was the first time in the investigation where I said, that's the Bridge Guy audio. It just it just clicked for me. I've listened to that countless amount of times and to hearing someone walk in and then hearing them, that voice come out through the TV speakers. I just I knew that that was the voice.

[00:37:10] He started admitting that he was out there on the trails that day and wearing the same clothing that Bridge Guy was, which then led to us going to his house after he walked out of the interview, getting the search warrant. And that's where at first I interviewed the neighbors that were around the house around their house. And then helped search the house. I searched his master bedroom and various other rooms in the house.

[00:37:38] I was there when we located the firearm that he had in the nightstand next to the bed, which ultimately led to us placing him directly in the crime scene. And I was also there when we found the bullet that was in the keepsake memory box as well. How did that strike you? It was a it was a gut punch. It when I opened the box and started going through all these keepsakes, it was letters from family.

[00:38:08] It was military past military information. It was past employment information, things that people keep to remember something by. And then when you come across around that looked identical to the round that was found at our scene, it was a real eye opening moment.

[00:38:28] I'm curious, you know, our understanding just from what has come out in trial and test and pretrial hearings is that, you know, in the beginning, there was also sort of an effort to, you know, either see if there was a connection with Kagan Klein or, you know, so that there was no evidence of a connection with Kagan Klein. And sort of can you just tell us whatever you can about that process? The connection with the clients and Richard Allen?

[00:38:53] Well, immediately we went back through all of the client devices, all the information that we had. We went back to see if there was any connection to Richard Allen whatsoever. Then once we obtained Richard Allen's phones and that data, we went through to see the opposite side, if there was any connection to the clients on that side. I met with Kagan. I believe that was my final time meeting with him to speak with him about Richard Allen.

[00:39:21] And we interviewed several people that either knew Richard Allen or Tony Klein, both are knew both of them. And after everything, after all the data that we reviewed, after everyone we talked to, we never found a direct connection between the two or anything linking to the crime, linking the clients to the crime like we did Allen. And of course, you, as we mentioned, you actually interviewed Kagan Klein numerous times.

[00:39:49] What kind of interactions did you have with Richard Allen? So I was there at the command center when he was interviewed the first time. And I went, when he walked out of the interview, I tried to get him to come back in and speak with us. I wanted him to speak with me. And he was extremely defensive.

[00:40:12] Numerous comments about how he cared about what people thought of him, which I told him, if you care about what people think of you, you know, come in and talk to me. I've talked to hundreds of people for this case. And a majority of them are willing to do everything that they can to clear their name from this investigation. And he was not cooperative in that. He would. After that, I was with the house search.

[00:40:37] And then the next interaction was the swabbing for DNA when Lieutenant Holman interviewed him. I'd like to talk a little bit about the fact that, you know, defense attorneys are always defense attorneys. And it's not unusual, I suppose, for defense attorneys to be critical of how an investigation is run or managed.

[00:41:03] Do you have any observations or opinions that you'd care to share about the defense attorneys in this case and how they described the investigation? Sure. I believe that it was solely just a strategy on their part. I don't think that they're the first defense team to ever have that strategy, and I don't think that they're going to be the last one.

[00:41:26] I think at the end of the day, the defense had a role to play in all of this, and I don't take any of that personal. I think people outside of law enforcement and outside of our justice system, they have a little bit of a different view on how things work. I mean, for instance, I've been on the stand and aggressively questioned by a defense attorney.

[00:41:54] And then court's over, you leave the courtroom, and the defense attorney walks up to you, shakes your hand, and says, hey, you did a great job, and acts like they're your best friend. And that's something I don't think that people get to see. That's outside of the field. So I don't take it personal, and I think it's just a strategy and a role to play.

[00:42:15] What do you make of the narrative that the theory of this crime being linked to, I guess, what was described as Odinism, was improperly investigated or not investigated enough or suppressed? I would definitely disagree. I know that before I was involved in the investigation full-time that Odinism was looked into before I got there and found to not be a part of it.

[00:42:40] And then after I was assigned full-time to the investigation, I looked into it and went through it with other agencies and found that it just wasn't there. I was wondering, do you remember talking with Todd Click when he came to the Lafayette Post in August 2024, and what was that like? I do. Overall, it was very difficult for me to understand.

[00:43:04] Speaking with him, somebody that was not intimately involved in the case or didn't know all the details of the case was so convinced that his theory was correct. And that all these people, including children, were involved in the murders, and no one said anything over the years that the investigation was going, and we had no evidence against them.

[00:43:33] And I just found it difficult because it didn't make any sense to me, being someone who is intimately involved in the case and having all the details. It just, that did not make sense to me at all. What was this sort of issue around odinism came to a bit of a culmination at the three-day hearing, where the defense was given a chance to present that evidence, and it was ultimately found that there was no nexus with the actual crime. And you testified at that three-day hearing.

[00:44:03] What was testifying at that like for you? I think testifying at the three-day hearing and testifying at trial was an unbelievable moment for me. It was something that we strived for for years, and to be sitting there and it finally happening was an incredible experience. We wanted to be at that point so badly for years. So being able to do that was great.

[00:44:31] It was good to finally have it underway, and unfortunately, I was separated for most of that. And that was a hard part of the trial, being so invested in the case and then having to be separated and not see it all come together at trial. That was tough. I think it was tough waiting there.

[00:44:53] There was countless times where I thought I was going to testify, and I'd be sitting outside the courtroom for a few hours, and then it just didn't happen. I remember constantly seeing you out in the hallway during this whole process on break. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I asked you earlier about the defense attorneys and your views on them. Can you tell us what you made of the prosecution team of Nick McClelland, Stacey Diener, and Jim Latraw? Yeah, I've known Nick for years.

[00:45:22] I met Stacey and Jim when we started trial prepping, and I am truly very proud of them. They did an amazing job. They were very professional, and they were at the top of their game for all these hearings and for the trial itself. Now that it's over, actually, I want to ask you just an additional question about the trial. Well, where were you when you heard there was a verdict, and what was the experience of learning the verdict like?

[00:45:52] I wanted to be there. We just didn't know when it was. So logistically, I was working on other cases and doing other things. When I found out that there was a verdict, and then shortly after finding out that it was a guilty verdict, I think that's the first time I caught my breath through everything. There was no celebration. It wasn't, I don't want to say a joyous moment, but it was just finally a time where you kind of step back and went,

[00:46:21] finally, we're here, and we got what we've wanted to provide the public and the families for a long time. What do you think the biggest mistake in the Delphi case was, if there is one? I think it's very important for law enforcement to always assess themselves and always assess what we're doing, how we're doing it, and to look back at what we did wrong and what we could do better in the future.

[00:46:48] We all definitely make mistakes, myself included. So mistakes obviously were made. But I think since working the Delphi investigation, I found that if we stick to a core team, a small team, and we work a process that we all decide on, I find that that is a way that we can complete an investigation with the fewest mistakes possible. Do you think looking back, given the overwhelming amount of tips,

[00:47:16] do you think that authorities would handle social media and the media, the traditional media, differently if you all could go back in time? Or I guess what are the learnings from that? Specifically for this case, I don't think that there was anything that we could have done different, honestly. I think there was such a limited amount of information that we could provide and release to the media and release to the public that we just had to work with what we had. We tried to be as transparent as possible,

[00:47:44] but at the end of the day, our main goal was to protect the integrity of this investigation and to get the end result that we did at trial. I know you were actually living this, so maybe you didn't have the inclination or the interest to look at any of the media coverage. But if you did, how do you feel the media covered this case? I definitely did. I can say I wish that the media covered this case like the both of you did. I respect all the reporting that you both did on this case.

[00:48:12] And during the entire investigation, I think that you all were fair and honest. And I think that you also held people accountable. It shows that you both did your research on this investigation and asked really great and fair questions. That means a lot. Thank you so much. That really does mean a lot. What do you think remains the biggest misconception that the public may now have on this case?

[00:48:39] I think the biggest misconception is that law enforcement was incompetent or corrupt, or we didn't want this case to be solved. And that's why it took so long to solve it, or we didn't arrest the right person. It's very difficult for people that haven't immersed themselves in this case to understand the sheer magnitude of the investigation. It was massive.

[00:49:04] The information could not be retained and given to just one person. That's why we all worked together. It wasn't humanly possible for me to know every aspect of this case, and I wouldn't expect another investigator to as well. So we all worked together to solve this case. There was no cover-up. There was no corruption involved in that. And we definitely arrested the right person. I'm also curious.

[00:49:33] We may wait a week or two before we release this. I don't know, but on the day we record, it's just been a couple of days since Superintendent Doug Carter stepped down at the end of his term. I know we talked about Nick McCleeland, and we talked about some of the other people you've worked with. What are your thoughts about Doug Carter? He's someone else that I cannot say enough good things about. He is the only superintendent that I knew in my career.

[00:49:58] He came on shortly before I graduated the academy, so I had the honor of working under him and with him since then. And with my interactions with him, I can just say that he is one of the most genuine professional people that I have ever met. And he meant everything. It wasn't just a show for the cameras. He was invested in this just as much as all of us were. And it was truly an honor to work for him.

[00:50:29] And then I do want to ask you about somebody else. And this is obviously sort of the person who is representing state police at the trial, Jerry Holman. What was it like working with him? Absolutely. I've worked for Jerry for a long time since I was assigned CID, and he is a very good guy. And he's very dedicated and dedicated a large part of his life to this investigation.

[00:50:57] And I think he did the best job that he could to manage everything that was going on. That's a lot to fall on one person at the end of the day. I want to ask you, and in a way you kind of, you and some of the other folks who worked on the Kagan Klein case and Delphi kind of occupy a kind of a different space in this because you're emotionally impacted potentially by these two awful cases.

[00:51:23] How would you say this case has emotionally affected you and the other investigators that you worked with? Going back to what I said earlier is I never want to take away from anybody in this case. What I experienced and what other investigators experienced emotionally cannot compare to what the families experienced after this tragic incident. So I don't ever want to seem like I'm taken away from them whatsoever.

[00:51:51] My heart truly has been broken for the families since this all happened. And I think it affected me like it affected all of us. It would be impossible to be a human and have this case not have some sort of negative effect on you. So the, specifically this, the Delphi investigation and Kagan Klein's CSAM investigation is, or I should say they are the most difficult cases I've worked in my career.

[00:52:20] And they are cases that I will never forget as long as I live. What is it like to immerse yourself in these kind of horrifying situations on a daily basis? It is difficult. It is something that you relive and go through every day. I like to describe it as it's like someone gives you a riddle and they don't tell you the answer. They just give you this riddle and you get to sit there and think about this riddle every day for years straight.

[00:52:51] But the answer to the riddle brings justice and gives closure to a grieving family who rightfully so deserves the answer to who hurt their children. So it's a lot to consciously and mentally and emotionally think about on a daily basis. As an investigator, it was difficult to also interview so many people and strike out every time. You would interview somebody hoping that this was it and you would just strike out.

[00:53:20] Nope, wasn't that person. On to the next one. So it was a roller coaster to experience every day. How do you keep going when you keep on running into those roadblocks and dead ends? I think overall it's for the girls. It's for their families. They deserve that. And who else would do it? This is my job and this is what I signed up to do and I love my job.

[00:53:51] And just keep that in mind on those hard days, just why you're doing it. And then, of course, as a team, I think we all really had each other's backs and we knew when one of us was struggling and would take some workload off the other person and just help each other through it. We had a great team that was able to all get through it. What do the members of this team mean to each other now that you've been through this really unique and challenging experience together? Oh, gosh.

[00:54:21] We spent countless hours together. A lot of early mornings, a lot of late nights, a lot of holidays, a lot of birthdays. So we all have gotten very close to each other. And I know that if I ever needed anything, I can call any one of those people on the team and they would be right there just as I would. I would be there for them as well. What do the families of Libby and Abby mean to you?

[00:54:49] Like I said earlier, that my heart has been broken for the families ever since this happened. And I have the utmost respect for the families of Abby and Libby. I admire their strength and their determination and their resilience through everything that they've experienced and everything that they went through. And I truly appreciate their support that they gave us throughout the years and that I would thank them for sticking with us.

[00:55:19] I would thank them for sticking with us through the whole thing. And I wish that this never happened to them or the girls. And then just what do the memories of Abby and Libby themselves mean to you now? Unfortunately, I never had the opportunity to meet Abby or Libby before this incident occurred. But I do feel like I know them very well. They had a lot going for them. And I wish that this never happened.

[00:55:45] And I wish that they were able to experience everything in life that they wanted and achieve all their hopes and dreams. But at the end of the day, even though that they're no longer with us, I still feel that Abby and Libby are changing the world for the better. And I will never forget them. Anything else to add that we didn't ask you about? I just, I appreciate you guys having me here. It means a lot. And thank you for your coverage and your time through all this. And thanks for having me.

[00:56:15] Thank you so much for doing this. And thanks for your excellent work on the investigation. Thanks very much to Detective Vito for taking the time to talk to us. We so appreciate the care he takes in doing this very important work. Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Shade. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:56:38] If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities. If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[00:57:07] We very much appreciate any support. Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com. If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[00:57:34] We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns? Yeah, thanks so much to Acorns.

[00:57:59] Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job, so we really appreciate them. We love our sponsors. Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey. That can seem daunting. It is daunting. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this, where you're like, what am I doing?

[00:58:25] But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started, and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future. You can get set up pretty quickly, and it allows you to start automatically saving and investing. That money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement. And you don't need to be rich. You don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment.

[00:58:55] So it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're interested, head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today.

[00:59:13] Paid non-client endorsement, compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns, tier one compensation provided, investing involved risk, Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor, you important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet. Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about VIA. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest. VIA is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean?

[00:59:40] It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products. Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep. Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them, and they really make this show possible.

[01:00:05] I'm going to say this, like, you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us. And it kind of makes it possible for us to do this show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high quality, high value. Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do? Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to Viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Viah, get a free gift of your choice.

[01:00:35] That's V-I-I-A, hemp.com, and use code MSHEET at checkout. Spell the code. M-S-H-E-E-T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective, and it really helps us out. Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quintz, a great new sponsor for us?

[01:01:00] I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quintz products you wear? Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products but without the crazy costs really well. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets.

[01:01:30] You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool. You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters. I think I have, yeah. And deservedly so. Also, like I'm one of those people, my skin is very like, you know, like I'm kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes something's too scratchy. Like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft.

[01:01:58] And make, wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not, it's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean that's a little bit of a, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you. A bit of a risk. You got something a bit different. I do wash my clothes. I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy. You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes.

[01:02:28] But you don't really, you don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good. Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com. There you go. So you can go to quince.com slash msheet. And right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quince.com slash msheet.

[01:02:53] That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash M-S-H-E-E-T.