The Delphi Murders: First Person: James Luttrull: Part One

[00:00:00] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of two children. James Luttrull is the kind of prosecutor who knows how to step back and let his witnesses deliver powerful testimony. We saw him do that again and again in the Delphi Murders trial. Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McClellan successfully tried and convicted Richard Allen of the murders of Liberty German and Anne McGill Williams.

[00:00:26] But as he will be the first to say, he did not do it alone. He worked with a terrific team of two other attorneys, each of whom once served as an elected prosecutor in another Indiana County. We will be speaking with all of them this week. James Luttrull worked in the Grant County Indiana Prosecutor's Office for decades. In the first few months of his first term as elected prosecutor there, five people were murdered.

[00:00:52] As his final term was ending, Luttrull successfully wrapped up the last of those cases. After leaving the prosecutor's office, Mr. Luttrull served as Deputy General Counsel of the Indiana Department of Child Services. He also worked with GRACE, an organization which works to prevent abuse of children in religious environments. And then he retired.

[00:01:16] Six months later, he got a call from Nicholas McClellan asking if Mr. Luttrull would be interested in working on the Richard Allen case. Mr. Luttrull was kind enough to speak with us. We talked at a library on the beautiful campus of Indiana Wesleyan University in Marion, Indiana. In the first part of our conversation, we talk about Mr. Luttrull's background and why exactly he stepped out of retirement to work on such a mammoth case.

[00:01:44] Now that the gag order is lifted, Mr. Luttrull and others are free to speak about their experiences with the Delphi case. This will be the first of two episodes featuring our interview with him. They will be released on the same day, so check out the second part as well. These episodes are part of our first-person interview series. We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with first-hand experience in the Delphi case as possible in the coming weeks and months.

[00:02:08] If you had a direct role in the case and are open to talking to us, email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. This is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders. For many years, we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case. That all changes now. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:39] We're The Murder Sheet. And this is The Delphi Murders. First Person. James Luttrull, Part 1.

[00:03:31] If you listened to our trial coverage, you may remember that for some reason I struggled with pronouncing Mr. Luttrull's name. In fairness, so did I. Anya began our discussion by asking Mr. Luttrull about how to pronounce his last name. And again, I apologize to him and his family. Well, the name is pronounced Luttrull on my side of the family, my grandfather or great-grandfather's side.

[00:03:56] But there's another side that say Luttrell and they spell it E-L-L at the end instead of U-L-L, which is the way we converted it. So the judge would always say Mr. Luttrull, which I was not going to correct her. And I actually secretly wish it was Luttrull because it's a lot easier to say and it was the original spelling. But Luttrull is the short answer to your question. I don't know. And I really, it doesn't, I don't like Luttrull.

[00:04:27] I've heard that, you know, but not very often. Well, I do apologize. I had a lot of trouble with the name. I don't know why. Oh, it didn't bother me at all. Well, that's very kind of you. Very forgiving. I want to, can you tell us about your background? You know, where are you from? What made you decide to go into the law? Well, I was born in Northern Indiana, but as a young man, young boy, we moved here to Marion. My father took a job at what was then Marion College, later became Indiana Wesleyan University.

[00:04:57] And so I was raised here, Marion Public Schools, Marion High School grad, went to Marion College. There I got a degree in English and in political science. So of course I applied to law school. I also met the love of my life and the best person I've ever known, Debbie. There we got married while still in school and school was over.

[00:05:22] Ended up going to California to law school at Pepperdine School of Law in Malibu, California. So spent a wonderful year there. And then decided to transfer, primarily just for family and financial reasons, transferred at Indiana University at Indianapolis. So I went to law school at what now is called the McKinney School of Law.

[00:05:51] The biggest thing that happened to me there was getting accepted into the internship program at the Marion County Prosecutor's Office. I had never thought about being a prosecutor. But the idea of law school, I don't know if that was... The saying was around with you, Kevin, but the first year they scare you to death, they work you to death the second year, and the third year they bore you to death.

[00:06:15] So I was looking for something to do and took up a job there as an intern at the prosecutor's office. And getting certified as an intern allowed you to actually try cases in court, supervised by a lawyer. And that was just an amazing experience. Well, was it about that work that really appealed to you? I tell you, I remember it was many, many years ago. So it's Memorial Day weekend, right?

[00:06:45] The Friday before Memorial Day, I think. We're getting a tour of the courthouse in Marion County. Starting the program in June. And the person giving the tour said, Oh, and there's a trial going on here in Superior Court. I think it may have been, or criminal court. It may have been one or four. I can't remember. We've got about an hour before we meet the next phase of our agenda. So I went in and just sat down. I'd never watched a trial before.

[00:07:15] And I was immediately just blown away by the drama and by the reality of what was going on. Ann Delaney was the deputy prosecutor at the time. He was prosecuting a man for murdering his child and was a really fine defense attorney on the other side. And it just, I just still remember how I felt watching it. This is not television. This is not fiction. This is real.

[00:07:44] But it's amazing drama at the same time. So I didn't even, I wasn't aware at the time that the bug was, I was getting bit by the bug at that time. I still thought I would go, you know, into some kind of private practice after I graduated. But it was a great experience. Got to see some amazing trial lawyers, both on the defense and the prosecution in Marion County. Steve Goldsmith was the prosecutor.

[00:08:13] John Tender was chief deputy. Dave Cook was chief deputy for a period of time while I was there. Greg Garrison. I watched Greg and Dave Cook try a death penalty case. And it was just really a great experience for someone who just wanted to soak up and observe good lawyers try cases. Bob Hammerly, Jim Boyle's other defense attorneys were trying cases at the time.

[00:08:40] So it was a great incubator for someone who didn't even think he wanted to be a trial lawyer at the time or a prosecutor, but was fascinated with it. Came back to my hometown to be a deputy prosecutor after a year and a half as a deputy prosecutor in Indianapolis. Worked in the Grant County Prosecutor's Office as a deputy for eight years and then 12 years, I think, as a chief deputy. And then 16 years. They all add up 16 years as prosecutor.

[00:09:08] So a 38 year career as prosecutor and then was elected four times, then unelected and look for something to do. I went to work as deputy general counsel at DCS. So at the downtown government center there in Indianapolis and did that for just under three years. For people who might not know what is the DCS. Yeah, Department of Child Services.

[00:09:38] So I was deputy general counsel supervising all the lawyers in the state who go to court on termination of criminal rights and child in need of services cases. So they work closely with the social workers, the case workers in the DCS system. And I really enjoyed as a local prosecutor.

[00:10:01] I didn't have the greatest opinion of DCS all the time, but I really appreciated the local people that I got to know. And they were heroes of mine while I was a prosecutor. I focused a lot on child abuse cases in the latter 20 years of my career. I might want to get into a little bit into some of the training that I went to be a part of that really enhanced my understanding and broadened my vision of what it meant both to be a good trial lawyer,

[00:10:29] but to be very effective on behalf of children who were abused. I went into DCS because I'd had a really positive experience with DCS locally and it was a great experience to work with them. After that, I did finished 18 months at a not-for-profit group called Grace, which is called Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment,

[00:10:53] started by a lawyer in Florida named Baz Chavijan, who happens to be grandson of Billy Graham. And his focus was on that the Catholic Church is not the only part of Christianity that has a problem with child abuse. This was back in the early 2000s. And so we started Grace. I served on their board for a number of years and then went to work for them,

[00:11:18] supervising investigations of churches, mission organizations, and schools where abuse has occurred. Hardest job I've ever had in many ways. Just it was very, very demanding. But as a person of faith that really had looked to church for a source of renewal and help then to be involved in investigating churches, I wasn't prepared for how difficult that was.

[00:11:47] So I love the organization. They're doing great work. I was ready to retire. So 2023 in April, I retired. And I just had a brief conversation right shortly before that with an attorney, Bob Guy, who was a former White County prosecutor, who said, I've mentioned your name to Nick McClellan. He's doing the Richard Allen case in Carroll County.

[00:12:17] Eventually, Nick and I got together and started working on this case. So I had six months of wonderful retirement, which was the most stress-free time of my life since I was in my mid-20s. I really enjoyed it. It's nice to know because not everybody does enjoy that. And I was glad to know that I enjoyed it. I can get into a little bit more about getting involved in the case. Yeah, we'd certainly be interested in that.

[00:12:46] But I'm also interested in some of the earlier things you mentioned. You said you wanted to talk about some of the training you had that made you a better lawyer and a better advocate for some of those children. Yeah, I'd been a prosecutor for a number of years and saw an ad.

[00:13:00] This must be right around 1999 for a course called Child Proof, which was advertised as an intensive trial advocacy class for experienced prosecutors on child abuse cases. So I signed up for it, got accepted, and went to the program. I was the oldest person there. A lot of young, really sharp prosecutors from around the country were part of the course, an amazing faculty.

[00:13:30] That course was in Washington, D.C., and I went from a Sunday morning to a Friday night trying a case and going through various stages of the case and being critiqued the whole time. It was a very humbling and invigorating experience all at the same time and really kind of transformed my career.

[00:13:52] If the internship in Marion County sort of kicked it off, the child proof course sponsored by the National District Attorneys Association really was a shot in the arm. And I felt what I would call the A-team of prosecutors around the country, and it was very inspirational. And then within a year, they had asked me to come and help teach the course.

[00:14:20] So from around 2000 to 2013, I was on the faculty for that course, and we taught courses around the country and got to know some amazing prosecutors. And that was really something that, I guess, lifting my game, giving me some colleagues that I would not have otherwise met, that was really important, important factor. I met a pretty influential former prosecutor named Victor Veith.

[00:14:47] I would recommend you reach out to him sometime for your podcast. But Victor was on staff of NDAA when they were putting on this course. He later started a program called Finding Words where he trained child social welfare investigators, police, and prosecutors how to properly conduct a child interview, working in tandem with a child advocacy center.

[00:15:12] And Victor is just really an amazing, creative, innovative person. He now works for Zero Abuse Project in Minnesota and still works with working with child abuse, training child abuse personnel. So that was a very influential part of my career, being a part of the Finding Words program in Indiana. It later became known as Child First.

[00:15:41] Working, getting that course set up in Indiana, being on the ground floor of that was really a big part of my career. And helping get a child advocacy center started in Grant County was something that we took a lot of pride in, and I was glad to be a part of that. Why do you think that that was such a big facet of your career? Like what about those kinds of cases, these abuse cases against children and protecting children has like resonated with you so much?

[00:16:08] Well, I knew it was, in my view, the hardest work to do as a prosecutor, both mentally and emotionally. And I just felt that we, it demanded our best. I remember as an intern at Marion County prosecutor's office meeting a prosecutor, two prosecutors who had been there about 10 years. And I noticed one person seemed to have 10 years experience.

[00:16:36] The other person had one year of experience that he had repeated 10 times. In other words, it really challenged me then, more than I realized, to want to try to continue to grow and learn and kind of put yourself out there to push yourself to become as good as you can. Plus, I was inspired by the workers, the police and the investigators from DCS that worked on child abuse cases.

[00:17:05] And I thought they needed my best from me. And these kids deserve my best. And so that was really the motivation to do that. And then just the follow up is, you know, we, we know that many prosecutors go on to do criminal defense eventually. Why do you think you really suck on the prosecution side your whole career? Oh, that's a good question. I respect and admire those who did.

[00:17:34] And in the Marion County experience helped me to have a fuller understanding because there would be lawyers, you may know some who went back and forth. They were a prosecutor for a few years, then they went into defense practice and went back to prosecution. And you're doing your job and you're doing your job as ethically and as well as you can. And I respect those who have done that.

[00:17:58] I know some really, some of the finest judges I know have been very dedicated public defenders and they had a different track in their career than I did. But so it wasn't out of, I could never do that or out of any lack of respect for the job that defense attorneys do. It's just, I don't know that my skills and my, the way I've done my work would fit well as a defense attorney. I think I could do it if I had to.

[00:18:27] I'd prefer not to. But I say that having a lot of respect for public defenders and the defense bar in general. In reading about you, it seems you have a reputation for like working really hard. And I remember seeing in an article, maybe it was a letter to the editor at one point where a crime scene investigator says often by the time even I would get to the crime scene, you know, you would already be there and taking charge. What is it that drives you?

[00:18:54] I, I, I think there's a curiosity and just wanting to know as much as you can about something for good number of those 38 years. I was prosecutor. We, the phone would ring in the middle of night and I would just get up and go to a crime scene or to a death scene.

[00:19:13] And so part of it was just wanting to be as aware as, as I could, again, wanting to be as supportive of the officers who had a much harder job and, um, right in the line of fire and wanting to be as supportive of them as I could be.

[00:19:32] And just recognizing that I couldn't do my job, uh, without, without that type of, um, involvement and being both work from, from the crime scene side of things, but also just, um, the legal research and the, the putting together from a set of facts, putting together a compelling true story of what happened was something that I found inspiring and exciting.

[00:20:02] And, and I know you couldn't, you couldn't get the final product unless you put in the work ahead of time. And I had some great mentors to, that taught me that. I was wondering, um, in terms of your career as prosecutor, are there any cases that stand out in your mind as being particularly memorable or something that comes to mind for you a lot? Yeah, there were, there were a number of, of compelling cases.

[00:20:26] Um, well, I know when I was a deputy prosecutor, I had a case where a elderly woman had been, a home had been, uh, invaded. She'd been attacked and robbed. Her home was burglarized. She lost many things, including the wedding ring that had been on her finger for, uh, I think over 50 years.

[00:20:49] When we got to court, she had somewhat deteriorated mentally, uh, due to the emotional trauma, I think, and some of the physical trauma. And I remember walking up to her in court and knowing that she wasn't as sharp as what she was when I'd met her in some pretrial meetings.

[00:21:08] Um, but when I handed her States Exhibit 1, uh, the wedding ring that had been found at a pawn shop, um, shortly after the crime, uh, her eyes just lit up. She immediately recognized it. She took it with the States Exhibit still on it and slipped it onto her finger and folded her hands and, um, answered a few more questions.

[00:21:34] And that was basically it, um, when the defense attorney who, um, with a lot of insight said no questions, judge excused her. She walked out of the courtroom with that States Exhibit still hanging on there. Nobody had the nerve to ask for it back, even though it was in evidence. I'll never forget that moment. And I never, I think that was that particular case, uh, as a young prosecutor, maybe four years of experience was the one where I think it

[00:22:04] lit a fire to want to make this a career or maybe more accurately that I felt like it was a vocation now for me. It was a calling that I was a part of rather than just a career choice. Um, so that case had a big impact on me when I was elected prosecutor. I took office in 2003 and five days later, we had a gruesome murder that occurred in the city of Marion.

[00:22:32] And then we had four more by mother's day. The mother's day murder was the fifth that had occurred. And we had maybe a murder every other year, occasionally one, one a year. Uh, but we might go two years or three without a murder. Having five in my first four months was, um, a real, a real significant challenge.

[00:22:57] That fifth murder was a woman in her eighties who was, um, attacked, sexually abused and murdered in her home. And it became a really, um, difficult and challenging case to investigate. We later got a DNA hit to two and then three and then four unsolved crimes in, um, Ohio and Florida.

[00:23:23] And eventually were able to triangulate and figure out who was the commonality between all of those unsolved crimes. And we ended up in 2016 charging a man with the murder of, uh, of Betty Payne. It's horrible, horrible crime that she, she suffered. And Roman Urisda is the defendant's name. And he was convicted in March of, uh, 2018.

[00:23:52] So that's a case that I, that really tracked my whole career as the elected prosecutor from just a few months after I got elected until a few months before I left office. So those were a couple of, uh, cases that come to mind. And you, you mentioned for the better part of 30 years, you're in a situation that you can get like a phone call in the middle of the night to go out and see something terrible, some awful crime scene. How do you deal with that? How does something like that affect you?

[00:24:21] You know, I, I used to think that it just doesn't affect me. There's, there's an, there's kind of a, an interest and an excitement about being needed in such a difficult, challenging situation. And, and there's so much to focus on mentally that you really don't have time for emotional impact years and years after doing this.

[00:24:42] My wife, Debbie, um, had an opportunity to go to Scotland for six weeks, do work in her, her profession, which is stained glass fabrication making. And, uh, she was working there and the tension began to rise in me. And I realized how much I had offloaded things from work without realizing it, uh, onto those people who care about me and who I trusted.

[00:25:11] And I wasn't even aware of it until then. So, uh, I'm not as, I'm not as, um, glib about the fact that, uh, it doesn't bother me. I think I really had an impact.

[00:25:23] I think my Christian faith and our church community, our children and the support of my wife and good friends really was what helps, helps me keep, stay anchored and positive and avoid some of the things that some in law enforcement and prosecution do to cope. So that's, that's helped me. You know, our three sons went into, uh, none of them gave any attention, uh, thought about going into law.

[00:25:52] Um, they're all in the arts. One's a, uh, an artist, uh, one's a poet and writer and professor of English. And the other is a, um, musician, uh, and in music education. So it's interesting to me that they've all done that, but I think pulling in music and other, uh, of the arts helped keep me grounded as well.

[00:26:16] And inspired and focusing on gratitude that this is a really a great opportunity. It's a great job in many ways. And having gratitude and having teammates that you, uh, you work with helps you go through a lot of really difficult things. I'm curious, do you have any sort of advice for, um, young people who might be, you know, getting out of law school or in law school who are interested in going into prosecution?

[00:26:43] Well, I, I, you know, I tell, um, pre-law students and those who, who are thinking about being prosecutors to, uh, make sure you get a life, uh, have healthy relationships, know people and spend time with people who aren't doing what you're doing. That'll help you. I think wanting to be excellent, wanting to dig deep and learn as much as you can also is an antidote to burnout.

[00:27:09] I, I got the opportunity to teach criminal justice at nights, uh, here at Indiana Wesleyan. And I ended up doing that for almost 30 years. And that was an antidote to burnout for me because just to deal with young people and to, and to learn from them, teach them was really a kept it fresh for me and something that I appreciate. So having those opportunities, being grateful for the opportunities you have, even though you'll, you'll see some horrible things.

[00:27:38] Those are important. As I was leaving the prosecutor's office, I had an opportunity to, to give a small talk at IPAC, um, conference. It's kind of at the end of my prosecuting career. And I told two stories that I think I'll try to be really brief here, but I think that they, they kind of tell a little bit about what this work is like.

[00:27:59] One was our, our son, uh, one of our sons had a, uh, uh, uh, was accepted into Baylor for grad school. And so I went to Waco, Texas to help him find an apartment. We have a mutual friend who was a resident of Waco or a mutual friend who knew a, a, um, a resident of Waco. And they said, uh, she'd be happy to go give you some kind of a tour of the city and help you find a place.

[00:28:28] And so we got connected. She's actually a prosecutor, uh, at the time in Waco. And we went around the community and it was a little awkward cause we're strangers. And she was taking time out of, at the end of her long week of being a prosecutor, helping someone she didn't know, look around the city. But soon she started talking about crime scenes. She's like, we had a rape case over here one time and went to trial. And then over here we had a double murder case.

[00:28:57] And I found myself relaxing and enjoying the visit with her as she was talking about crime scenes in this community. And I thought later I realized that is really weird that, that, that, you know, it's not normal. I should have been, you know, a normal person would have felt uncomfortable or at ease or like, this is gross. But to me, it was the most natural thing to do.

[00:29:26] The second story was in getting ready for that murder trial I spoke about, uh, the, uh, URISA case where there was a horrible murder of an elderly woman. We had all this photography on regular film and we needed to get it transferred over to digital to be able to use the screen and courtroom and so forth.

[00:29:50] And so I found a person, young man, uh, actually at Indiana Wesleyan in the art department who had the, the equipment to take, take our film and put it into digital format. Um, I warned him that these photographs are quite graphic and difficult to look at. He seemed to understand. He took them from us, but within 10 minutes called and said, can you come get your photographs back? I cannot work with these.

[00:30:22] Um, and that also was like a wake up call that in this work, um, it will have an impact on you. Um, sorry, Kevin, to have such a rambling answer to your good question, but, uh, you're the kind of person eventually who finds it normal to give a crime scene tour when you're looking at a new community. And you're the kind of person who can study horrible photographs that normal people are repelled by. And that's just a given.

[00:30:49] So you need to have infused into your life as well, uh, beauty and friendships and, uh, colleagues that you trust. That wasn't rambling at all. Those were great stories. Thank you so much. Uh, you mentioned you're retired, you're enjoying your retirement. You got this, this call, but before that, I'm curious. Is it, had you heard about this case? Were you familiar with it? Um, yeah, I, I was prosecuted through 2018.

[00:31:17] So, um, I knew that the crime had, uh, you know, had happened. Uh, we'd had some local officers. You've already heard that there were officers from all over the state ended up, um, coming in and helping from time to time. I knew that there were some Indiana state police officers, um, working on the case that I'd worked with.

[00:31:41] I'd worked with Jason Page on a number of, uh, at least a few homicides in Grant County, um, and police action shootings. So, um, I, I knew of Jason and his work and knew that he was involved in it, although I didn't know any details. So, I was just aware of it. Um, Robert Ives, the, the original prosecutor at the time was someone I knew through Indiana Prosecutor and Attorneys Council, uh, and conferences. Uh, so I knew about that.

[00:32:10] And I knew that there was a new prosecutor on the case, um, um, Nick McClellan, but I did not know Nick at all and we'd never met. So, I was only vaguely aware of the case and starting to become aware that many people was, it was attracting a lot of attention. But I was, I had no idea of the national and international following that the case had. But you're enjoying your retirement.

[00:32:36] You, you get this call, you know, it's not going to be an easy case or a fun time. What made you decide to go ahead and work this case? Another great question. The downsides were I was enjoying my retirement and that I knew I was going to be a little rusty. I had six years of not, although I'd been busy doing other jobs, I had six years of not being a litigator, not doing any courtroom work.

[00:33:07] And knew that there'd be a, uh, it would be a huge burden on me and us, uh, our family. But I think meeting Nick and discussing just his philosophy and his work on the case, um, and then being around some of the staff getting to meet the, some of the key investigators, Steve Mullen, Jerry Holman, others from the FBI and from, um, U.S. Marshal's office.

[00:33:36] Tony Liggett from Carroll County, Kathy Shank. And, uh, just being impressed by everybody. And then knowing number one, I feel like I had a vocation to be a prosecutor. I had a calling, wasn't sure that that was over with. I had just this desire. If I could do anything to help these families and these girls get justice, what an opportunity.

[00:34:02] And then I think the people that I was starting to mention, I think those, those were the three things. The sense that I, I probably wasn't finished with my work as, as a prosecutor. The fact that this particular case, uh, was so compelling factually, um, even though we knew it was going to be difficult. And then to get to, to, to, to, to meet some of the people involved.

[00:34:27] I hadn't yet met the family before I made the commitment, but meeting them was just inspirational. And, um, and then getting to know, uh, some of the, some of the forensic people. I mentioned Jason Page. I knew Jason. I didn't know Dwayne Gatzman or Brian Olahai. I did not know them, but learning about them and seeing their dedication. I had worked with Stacy Bosonofsky, who was the DNA analyst in the case.

[00:34:56] Um, and then new colleagues of Melissa Oberg's firearm and tool mark examiners, but did not, had not worked with her, but I knew of her dedication. And just that sense of all in using every skill I have to do as much as I can to help present the truth. Seeing people do that. And, and, and after long and successful careers, it's like how, how I could not add, if there's anything I can add to this, I want to be part of that team.

[00:35:26] I don't know if you're either of you are familiar with, um, movie Magnificent Seven, but there's, it's a great story. And, um, uh, for this comment to make sense, I'll have to give the, briefly, I'll give the background that you have these Mexican peasants who are being raided periodically by these evil bandits and having their, their little that they have stolen from them. And so they go north of the border to get some gunslingers to help them. Men are cheaper than guns.

[00:35:55] They said, we don't have enough money for guns, but we can maybe buy some men. And, uh, Yul Brynner and Steve McQueen are the, some of the two of the main, of the Magnificent Seven. But, uh, Yul Brynner plays a character named Chris Adams. And, and at some point when they're told this story, these peasants are bringing everything they have to hire these guys. And it's still a pittance.

[00:36:21] Yul Brynner and the character Chris Adams remarks, you know, I've been offered a lot to do my work, but I've never been offered everything. And I was around people. It really makes me emotional. I was around people who had given everything to this case. And, uh, excuse me, I didn't, don't want to, um, get too emotional about it, but they had just given everything. And if I could give something to it, uh, I wanted to do that.

[00:36:51] And I'm just grateful that Nick gave me the opportunity. Absolutely. And, and great film reference. Um, I want to ask you, how do you get started in a case as huge and sort of insurmountable from the outside as Delphi? Like, I mean, just in talking workflow, how do you kind of catch up and start running with it? That, that was probably the biggest challenge of this case.

[00:37:16] Um, in some ways, I mean, despite the, the human and very personal tragedy and horrible nature of the crime, it's a case. And, and you've got certain facts, but this case had attracted so much attention and there'd been so many leads, so many things gathered by the investigators that it was, it was a huge challenge to kind of understand it all.

[00:37:44] As a team, we divided certain things up and I relied a lot on Steve Mullen and Jerry Holman and many of the other detectives. I hesitate to start naming people because there were so many that were just excellent in this case. I began, I relied on them. Nick had an amazing grasp of really the, the vast, uh, both the particulars that were relevant and why certain other particulars were really irrelevant.

[00:38:13] He had a, he had an incredible grasp of it, but we divided things up. Um, Stacy Diener ended up taking a large part of reviewing a lot of information and reports that I didn't have time to do. She did a vast amount of work on that and we were able to just, um, who is this person again? And where were they and were they on the bridge or where, what's their connection to this case?

[00:38:40] So as a team, I felt like we did a great job. Um, but it was individually, it was a huge challenge. What was it like working with a prosecutor McClelland and, uh, Ms. Diener? I got, I got to say that I've given a lot of thought. I was a prosecutor for 38 years and I taught criminal justice for nearly 30 years. I got to train around the country with some incredible prosecutors.

[00:39:07] So I feel like I've given a lot of thought, um, to this topic of what, what it takes to be a good prosecutor. I, I, uh, our family, when the kids were, were younger, uh, you know, we went to London for vacation. And, uh, while they're going to a market, I'm going to the old Bailey to watch a trial. That's kind of, you know, some basketball players that were called gym rats. I was kind of a, I was kind of the courtroom version of that.

[00:39:37] So I've given a lot of thought to this and, and I ran for office four times. So, um, what I would say is a prosecutor, especially a small town prosecutor, but really any prosecutor needs to be three things. A servant of the law, a shepherd of justice, and a teller of true stories. As a servant of law, you don't serve politics. You don't serve media.

[00:40:06] You don't serve influential people in the community. You serve the law. And I was convinced that Nick McClellan is, is just that. He's not, has no other agenda but to serve the law. But you have to be a leader. If justice is going to happen, you have to be a shepherd of justice. You have to get people on the same page without having any authority over them. You can tell people what to do, but you have no power to compel them.

[00:40:36] You can only try to be winsome and persuasive in how you go about your work and develop trust. And so say, trust me in this. And that's what a shepherd of justice is, is bringing together so many people. On individual cases and in general, like as a prosecutor, I needed to know the school counselors at the schools. I needed to know the ER staff at the hospital.

[00:41:05] I needed to know and be able to talk to mental health professionals and much less the law enforcement that I need. And I need their cooperation, but I have no authority over them. And so Nick did an amazing job of shepherding justice in the most difficult, in my career, one of the most difficult settings he could ever have,

[00:41:28] which is a small town with a double murder, gruesome double murder of these two children, with the world literally watching you, all the disinformation and misinformation that was being spread. And finally, to be a compelling storyteller. And I feel like he does that really well.

[00:41:51] That's part of the job that I most enjoyed is taking that opening statement and that final argument and telling the story with the admissible evidence that you have and to craft that. And I had a different role in this case. My role was to support, to do the things I was assigned to do, which was primarily the forensics, to do that work.

[00:42:20] And then as a team, we helped work and put together the rest of the case, each of us having our own individual responsibilities. But that's something I just wanted to say about Nick. It was just his, he has the head, the heart, and the backbone to do the job. And they're all required. You can have two of the three and you won't be successful. But I was very impressed and appreciative.

[00:42:47] There were times I would, either on my case or my staff's case when I was in Grant County Prosecutor, we would come down from court, maybe it was a pretrial hearing, and I would just get frustrated and a little animated at sometimes when the defense seemed to be maybe putting a defense forward that I found to be not based on the facts.

[00:43:12] And I would stomp on the floor and say a little loudly, this case and this crime happened and this trial will take place on terra firma. And people would look at me like, you're crazy. I don't know what you're talking about. But my point was, in the real world, on solid ground, that's how this case needs to be tried.

[00:43:33] And we were committed, as Nick, Stacey, and I, to focus on the evidence and the facts and keep that in mind. I was once at a, I used to train with a wonderful, sharp prosecutor from San Diego, Kathy Stevenson.

[00:43:57] And she had this lecture where she would tell prosecutors, there are no good facts and bad facts. There are facts. And you need to understand that. You don't, you don't cherry pick these facts and this facts. You take them as a whole. Our intent was not to come with work and create a timeline. Our job was to find the timeline. Does that make sense?

[00:44:25] And that was our focus on the case, to try the case on terra firma and to deal with the facts as they are, kind of a it is what it is type of way, and find the timeline, not try to create a timeline. And we were committed to that. And I feel like with the help of the investigators and the forensics, we were able to do that. And it just begs one, one thing I just got to say, a thing that made this case just so remarkable.

[00:44:53] I don't think we could ever overestimate it. Its impact is Libby German taking that video, that video from her iPhone. If you take that out of this case, I don't know what you have. It provided so much information that was really rock solid and I think was really became a big focus of our case.

[00:45:21] But, you know, our focus was on three things. Richard Allen is bridge guy. The bullet was cycled in Richard Allen's pistol. And the confessions were reliable. That was, I think you heard that in the opening statement. You heard it in the final argument. And hopefully we got it across throughout the trial. But we as a team kind of said that's our three-legged stool that this case is based on.

[00:45:47] And everything we do needs to be aimed at dealing with that. Again, bit of a rambling answer to your question. No, it's not. Thanks very much to Mr. Luttrell for taking the time to talk with us. We so appreciate it. Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:46:15] If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities. If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[00:46:44] We very much appreciate any support. Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com. If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[00:47:11] We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns? Yeah, thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job, so we really appreciate them. We love our sponsors. Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app.

[00:47:40] It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey. They can seem daunting. It is daunting. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this, where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started, and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future.

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[00:48:26] So it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're interested, head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors, LLC, and SEC registered investment advisor.

[00:48:54] You important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet. Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quince, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quince products you wear? Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters.

[00:49:19] They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products but without the crazy costs really well. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool. You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters. I think I have, yeah. And deservedly so.

[00:49:47] Also, like I'm one of those people, my skin is very like, you know, like I'm kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy. Like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make it. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah, I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket.

[00:50:15] I mean, that's a little bit of a you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this is a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different. I do wash my clothes. I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy. You just made me sound awful. So, no, I wash my clothes. But you don't really. I longer them. You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good. Thank you. Great products. Incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com.

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[00:51:10] Vaya is pretty much, I guess you'd say the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products. Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep. Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them.

[00:51:39] And they really make this show possible. I'm going to say this, like you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us. And it kind of makes it possible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high quality, high value. Anya, if I wanted to give this discount you speak of, what do I do? Okay. If you're 21 and older, head to Viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off.

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