The Delphi Murders: First Person: Sheriff Tony Liggett

[00:00:00] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of two children. Carroll County, Indiana Sheriff Tony Liggett has played so many important roles in the Delphi case. As a detective with the Carroll County Sheriff's Office, he started out trying to find Liberty German and Abigail Williams on February 13, 2017. After the case shifted into a double homicide investigation, he ran down tips and became a part of the multi-agency Unified Command investigative team

[00:00:28] responsible for working the case. When volunteer Kathy Shank resurfaced the lead regarding Richard Allen in 2022, Liggett was the first person she told, and he threw himself into that investigation. He gathered evidence against Allen and even interviewed him. As Sheriff of Carroll County, Liggett was instrumental in running the trial in Delphi's historic courthouse, working to ensure that his team protected the defendant, the judge, the attorneys, the jurors, and the general public.

[00:00:57] Sheriff Liggett was largely responsible for ensuring that the trial of Richard Allen proceeded smoothly and safely. On the stand-at trial, Sheriff Liggett performed impressively under aggressive questioning from defense attorney Bradley Rosie. He responded calmly and intelligently, throwing out facts inconvenient to the defense's case. We were pleased when he agreed to talk to us about his extensive experiences on this case. Now that the gag order is lifted, Sheriff Liggett and others are free to speak about their experiences with the Delphi case.

[00:01:26] This episode is part of our first-person interview series. We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with first-hand experience in the Delphi case as possible in the coming weeks and months. If you had a direct role in the case and are open to talking with us, email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. This is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders. For many years, we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case. That all changes now. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:54] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We are The Murder Sheet. And this is the Delphi murders. First person, Sheriff Tony Liggett.

[00:02:53] I guess to start off with, can you just tell us a bit about your background? Where are you from? I'm from Carroll County, Delphi. Graduated from Delphi High School. I guess technically I moved here in the second grade. But yeah, I'm Carroll County through and through. What was it like to grow up here? Amazing. I mean, quiet. It's a small town. One of those, and I guess I grew up in an era where when the streetlights came on,

[00:03:20] your parents may not know where you are, but when the streetlights came home, you should be back home so they know where you're at. What was your pre-law enforcement life like here? Lots of sports. Are you talking? Yeah, everything. Everything. So I just was into sports, Little League, baseball. I was a big baseball person. What position did you play? Pitcher in third base. What kind of drew you to law enforcement? What did your career look like?

[00:03:49] Well, it was the typical stereotype of I just always, when I was growing up, I wanted to be in law enforcement. You know, I think little kids, I think it's changed a little bit today, but you either want to grow up and be a fireman or a police officer. And I always enjoyed the contacts with law enforcement around here. I can remember, you know, being out with friends and stopped at a gas station and the law enforcement would stop and talk to you or super friendly.

[00:04:20] I can remember being out late at night in my teenage years shooting basketball hoops at the park and the cop would come and play basketball with you. So that was just the direction that I wanted to go. However, I did the typical young kid, started having kids very young, kind of lost that path to law enforcement, ended up working with my grandmother owned a glass eyeglasses shop.

[00:04:48] Eventually I took that over from her and the opportunity for Carroll County reserves came open to me again to be a reserve deputy. And I jumped on it and I found that passion again. So I gave that up and became a jail officer in Carroll County, Indiana. And the rest is history. That was really, so that was really your dream law enforcement. And you mentioned like the friendliness of the officers you knew growing up. You know, what did it mean?

[00:05:16] What did it mean for you to kind of pursue that path again and kind of take that up that dream again? What were you, what, I guess, what brought you back to that? I don't want to say that I lost the passion for it, but raising it at that, when I started the reserve thing, I had two kids. It was about taking care of my family. And so I kind of lost that. I don't want to say I lost the direction, but that just took a back burner until the opportunity of being that reserve deputy came up.

[00:05:42] And I just really, truly fell in love with it again and was doing it for free. A reserve deputy, even currently today, our reserve deputies put on the same uniform and go out and perform the same duties, but don't get paid for it. Do you think that experience of like running your own business, does that affect the way you have approached law enforcement and maybe even running this office? I think so. I was always in retail.

[00:06:09] My high school job was at a retail grocery store. So, you know, kind of one of those, the customer's always right attitudes and it's carried over to even now. I want to hear from the public if they feel something was wrong at my office door is open. Let's figure out how to make things better in general. And I actually, during my time in the glasses business that I went and went back to school, got my business degree.

[00:06:39] So I think that's really helped even in, especially my role as sheriff. You mentioned how your business experience kind of affects how you look at things even now as sheriff. What is it like being sheriff? It's a lot. It's a lot. I'm not saying it's not a lot anywhere else because I know it is, but being in a, a small community, a small department, my role is just not sitting in the, in the office and, and pushing paper.

[00:07:05] I work long hours because I still have to push a lot of paper, but I've jailed here as sheriff. I take as many calls as I can with the guys because we're, we have such low numbers of deputies for the road and, and jail staff that I put on many hats as sheriff. So talk about low numbers for like jail staff. How big is the jail here? Our jail technically houses 34 people. Do you often have to have more than 34 people here?

[00:07:35] We do. We have, we've had more than 34 for several years now. We, we actually have a budget line to house people in other counties because to try and keep our overcrowding down. Another thing we, you mentioned it's a relatively small department. And I know like in Indianapolis, for instance, where we're from, if there's a particular type of crime, there's always someone who specializes in it. Maybe there's like somebody who takes the report and they forward it to a detective. Is that how it works here?

[00:08:04] Not exactly. Our road guys are, are, are cross trained. So we have two detectives and they work on investigations and, and drug investigations. If, if we get say a, a, a burglary, our road guys get trained in investigation. So, so they can run with that. If it's, if it's a bigger investigation, the, they'll call the detectives or, or they're

[00:08:29] constantly, even on the ones that they work on, they constantly stay in contact with the detectives if they need guidance or things like that. From your experience as a deputy detective and now a sheriff, what are some of the kind of crimes that typically occur in Carroll County? Like what is the issues affecting the area? It's not a lot. I mean, it's not a lot to be honest with you. Drugs. Most people in Carroll County jail are drug related.

[00:08:56] Any, no matter how you slice it, if it's, if it's for burglary or theft or something like that, that they're actually here for, you can trace that back to drugs, methamphetamine or something like that. Over the course of your career here, are there cases prior to the Richard Allen case to kind of stand out in your mind that you've worked on? Well, as a matter of fact, during the, the Richard Allen stuff in 2017, there was another murder case that I stepped out of the Abbey and Libby and worked the homicide for that

[00:09:24] and got a conviction on James Haas. Can you tell us a little bit about that case? He had killed Mark Houchen in a little town called Deer Creek here in Carroll County. There was a relationship there with the victim. We put a lot of work into it. That took me to Tennessee. Part of the investigation was in Tennessee. Yeah, that was, it was good to get closure on that case. I also want to highlight your, you seem to be a guy who's really involved with the community.

[00:09:51] I think the first time we saw you outside of the courtroom was a bacon fast. You were like, serve an ice cream of the Lions Club. Can you tell us about your community touch? I feel like I'm built to serve. Actually, I feel like being sheriff is kind of taken away from that a little bit, but the Delphi Lions Club, all the Lions Clubs, Flora Lions Clubs, they're all, they're all great community clubs that want to help. And, and that's what I'm geared to do.

[00:10:19] There are other clubs that I'm not involved with that'll have a fish fry, say, and, and they call me and say, hey, do you want to help serve? And I love doing those kinds of things. So being sheriff is, is kind of took some of my time away from being able to do that, but that's the stuff I like to do. A lot of our listeners may not live in Carroll County or, or near it. And I was just wondering just for outsiders, how would you describe this place?

[00:10:47] How would you describe Delphi and then, you know, Carroll County as a whole? Delphi, Carroll County. I, I consider them one in the same. You can throw Flora in there. If you want a small town vibe where you know your neighbors, Carroll County is very historic. When I trained guys, I was a field training officer as well. We would drive around to all the historic sites is learning about Carroll County and learning landmarks and things.

[00:11:13] And I would like out at Carrollton bridge, there were, there was a lock system out there on the Wabash river and I'd make them read, get out of the car and go read the signs and things like that, just to get them familiar with the area. And are you a bit of a history buff? I'm not. I mean, it fascinates me. So I, the Wabash and Erie Canal center down here, you go through the museum and they've done such a fabulous job. And maybe as I get older, I'm, I'm more into history, but I never have been.

[00:11:43] But those things, those things are really neat. And I do like going to places like that. I'm curious as an investigator, as a detective, what, what is your approach when you take on a big case? Well, I search for the truth. We look for facts when things are presented to us or an investigator dug into a part of it. I don't know that, that the investigators like it so much, but I kind of am the devil's

[00:12:09] advocate and start throwing a lot of questions, maybe kind of like a defense attorney. I just want to try and make sure we have everything, everything covered. The details matter. And this case was a great way for the world to see the little details matter. You know, I want to talk about the, the beginnings with the Delphi murders case. I guess, how did you, how did you first hear about two kids going missing in Delphi?

[00:12:37] So I was actually at the jail waiting for someone to turn themselves in on a warrant for an investigation that I'd worked for child molesting. And I was literally in our, our jail and dispatch room again, because we're so small as, is one room. So I was in there when they got the call. So I knew that there was two girls that didn't, didn't show up and they'd been out at the bridge trails shortly after that.

[00:13:05] And they still hadn't found them after the guy turned himself in and I'd booked him in and everything like that. I decided I'd try and help them out. So what kind of things were you doing that first day, February 13th? I found out who the two girls were and I just started doing, got in my computer. I learned that Abby lived not far from the bridge and decided, well, maybe if they were out there, they just walked to her house. So I went there to see if that's where they were. Uh, they weren't.

[00:13:35] And I came back for the most part for the, for most of that evening, I was here just trying to find information. I know I went one time. They thought they might go to a, they may have went to a basketball game. I actually saw Mike Patty at, there's an old middle school gym that they used for basketball games for, for, I think elementary and middle school age kids. I saw Mike there when we were there looking, uh, for the most part, I was here at the jail,

[00:14:04] not out on the trails looking. And then going to February 14th, the next day, I guess, what, what did that morning look like for you in terms of all these different searchers and other departments are coming in to help? And, and you're one of the detectives at that point for Carroll County. So I guess just talk us through that morning. I was at the fire department making sure people got signed in. I mean, there was a lot of people. And at some point we got the call that wasn't the call we were expecting.

[00:14:34] Do you remember how you found out or like who told you? To the best of my recollection, I believe someone called Steve Mullen and Steve Mullen. We were all together and, and I believe he just told us that they'd found the girls and I don't remember his exact words, but it wasn't good. How did you feel when you found out that, I mean, one common theme that came out of trial and from talking to people was that no one expected anything nefarious, you know, an accident

[00:15:02] perhaps, or confusion, miscommunication, but, but an outright double homicide was not what people expected because that just doesn't really happen here. When you found out that that was what would happen, how did you feel? Initially, I would just say the first thing was shock. It would have been less shocking, I suppose, that if it was two adults, but it was two little girls. And, and just that initial reaction was, you know, there's no way that there's no way that

[00:15:31] this happened in Carroll County. How did you come to take a leadership role in the investigation? Well, that's funny. I've heard everybody talk about, I was a, a, a big leader in the beginning. I was just, it was, I guess, kind of funny because I was the new detective for here. I had not been a detective for very long. We had another guy that had been a detective for quite some time. So they, they affectionately called me junior for a junior detective.

[00:15:58] A big part of my role, especially, you know, through the whole thing was, I was the guy reading all the tips. That got very frustrating, but, but yeah, I, I, we set up like a unified command and I was a part of that. And eventually our other detective retired and I was the only one left for Carroll County. So I don't know exactly when I could say I was in a leadership role, but I was part of the unified command.

[00:16:28] And that was a great, a great system. The cooperation between agencies was super great. And was everything perfect? Did we all agree? No, but that's what, again, kind of being the devil's advocate kind of person I am. I think that's what made the case better because we were always, you know, if we disagreed on something, we, we talked through it and it worked out really well. You don't want to be in lockstep on everything and just yesing each other. Correct. Absolutely.

[00:16:58] I wanted to ask you about, you know, February 14th. So it's a detective Kevin Hammond and you for, for Carroll County there. I know, I think this has been alluded to in some of the public statements, but just sort of like initial talks with like people like then Sergeant Jerry Holman, you know, about like who's going to take the case and things like that. Do you remember that conversation? I do. However, I think Jerry might've got it just a little bit wrong because I had left the

[00:17:24] scene and him and Kevin Hammond were still on scene and they were talking and called me on the phone. So we were on speaker phone with them and I wasn't there for standing there for the conversation. I was a part of the conversation, but I wasn't standing there. Presence was felt. Yes. I wanted to, yeah. So, so what was, you know, I guess, had you worked with state police extensively before

[00:17:53] it's in your role as deputy and then detective? Yeah. Yeah. The state police, again, with our small agency, they're, they're a nice presence to have here. They're road guys. They have guys that are assigned to Carroll County. They're not always here. Don't get me wrong. There were times several years ago when Carroll County had to lay off deputies. They just said, oh, state police will, they'll cover us. And again, state police are great. I'm not, but they're not always here.

[00:18:20] They have other responsibilities and they're in other counties and, and they, they helped us greatly. Even during the trial, we, they were a big part of helping us. And then I just, you know, I guess, like, did you, can you underscore how brutal you this crime was against these two girls? It's, it's hard to put in words. Anything that anybody does to children is, is horrifying.

[00:18:51] But I remember getting to the scene and, and just wondering how a person could do what they had done to those two little girls. I, I, I don't even know that I have the proper words. It, it, it was, it was horrifying, but you quickly, as law enforcement, I've seen some, some pretty ugly things.

[00:19:15] I've been in horrible autopsies with, with infants and then you're in work mode and, and that's what you do. You know, you mentioned your own changing role in the investigation. And one thing we've heard from a lot of people is just how many tips flooded in. And you mentioned that can be frustrating to be the one kind of assigned to going through that. Can you tell us more about some of those frustrations and sort of the nature of this sort of, I don't know, like waterfall of tips just coming in, in the early days?

[00:19:44] I truly think number one, we, we asked for the public's help. So I'm not, I'm not complaining. I truly think most people thought they were helping, but it was a daily thing to just multiple tip after tip after tip of people going on about any male's Facebook page and sending screenshots of that person. And we'll use Kevin for an example.

[00:20:13] Hey, I was on Facebook and, and Kevin Greenlee looks just like the bridge guy picture. And, and there were a lot of those things. And then because it was high profile case, I guess you would say, anytime we talked to somebody, if people found out we were talking to somebody, everybody and their brother would send in tips about that person. They would not know that person. They would not have any information necessarily to help us about them.

[00:20:41] I don't know if they were just trying to get the reward or I don't understand. I didn't know the motivation as to why they would do it, but you know, we would just get all kinds of tips. Hey, yeah, I do think Kevin Greenlee does look like, or, or things like that. So it was frustrating. Another thing we've heard about is a sort of like really outlandish things like Sasquatches under the bridge and things like that. Sasquatches under the bridge. Bridge guy has a monkey on his back.

[00:21:08] He has a puppy in his tucked inside his jacket. You can see its face. Lots and lots of tarot card readers. And yeah, those could get frustrating because we read them all. Every single one. We read all of them. Yeah, it's a waste of time and resources when it's something that ridiculous.

[00:21:36] I'm curious, you know, so going back to what we talked about before, your role in the case changed kind of more a leadership role later on. And there was that initial sort of outpouring of tips. I'm wondering, can you tell us about beyond that? Like, how did the case change over time as far as how it was investigated and the number of people involved? It seems like it kind of was a consolidation at some point. Yeah, as time went on, I don't even know how many agencies came to help just for the trial.

[00:22:06] We had 36 agencies help us with the security during the trial. And I feel like I could almost guarantee you there was more agencies there in the beginning of this wanting to help. Eventually, weeks into it, you know, those agencies needed their resources back. So those agencies left. Eventually, one of the FBI guys that was here from day one, he retired.

[00:22:34] Someone replaced him, but they really didn't jump into the case with us. But yeah, it pretty much just got down to Unified Command state police detectives, which was definitely more manageable. Can you tell us more about Unified Command? Like, what was would you guys like meet regularly or was it something like you're kind of more in touch on by phone? Like, how did the how did working together look like over time?

[00:23:00] In the beginning, we had a unified command room and we met there daily, sometimes multiple times a day. And we essentially would talk about, you know, let's say if an officer thought there was something more to a person they were investigating, we would decide, you know, next steps or things like that. Our command center moved three, four times.

[00:23:25] We started at the Delphi City building and upstairs level, went to an old REMC building on the courthouse square, then back to the city of Delphi before we ended up at another place where we the building is still there. Can you talk about how important it was for investigators to identify bridge guy, the guy who appears in the video that Libby took before the abduction?

[00:23:53] How important it was to identify the bridge guy? Yeah. Very important. At the time, we thought that person hadn't come forward. I mean, for me personally, that was kind of my focus. We feel like we've talked to every single person that was out there that day, except the guy we had the video of. And did you have any guesses or things like that about, you know, who the killer was?

[00:24:19] I know it's been talked about, like, you know, at the New Direction press conference, Doug Carter noted that the guy was local. Things like that where you maybe had like some feeling about that. For me personally, so again, as I said, I grew up here. I knew of high bridge. I had never been to high bridge myself. I really feel like it was in my gut. I thought it was somebody from here. They had to know those trails were there. That was just my gut.

[00:24:48] Again, this goes back maybe a little bit to your business background, but can you talk about some of the management challenges that this case posed? In the beginning, it was super tough. I mean, there was just so many people here. So if there was if there's one thing that I'll I'll not let happen again is let that many people come and help. There's no fault. There's no there's no it was great, but there was just too many people.

[00:25:17] It's a good way of putting it. The information, especially about Richard Allen, didn't necessarily make it to the right person to to have it click with them at that time. And that's another example. I've heard people are, you know, bashing Lieutenant Dan Doolin. Dan Doolin did exactly what he was asked to do to a T. Go out, talk to this person and report back in. The information was there. The information was in the system.

[00:25:46] Dan Doolin did nothing wrong. Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned that because not just Doolin, but pretty much the entire community of Delphi, it feels was unfairly maligned at one time or another. And the city was really subjected to a lot of scrutiny. That seems absurd. As someone who's lived here all your life, what was it like to like see on the Internet or what have you?

[00:26:13] People just saying outrageous and blatantly untrue things about the place you call home. I quit looking at the Internet, period. I'm not a social media guy anymore. I feel like 95% of social media and YouTube is out for clicks and likes. And people that are from Carroll County, we love Carroll. It is a great place to raise your kids.

[00:26:42] It is full of history and wonderful people. So I think it was really unfair for those people who are not even from here to make attempts to cast any judgment on Carroll County or Delphi. It's a terrific place. I choose to be here. I could go when I'm in law enforcement, I could go make a lot more money somewhere.

[00:27:08] All of my deputies could go make more money being a police officer somewhere else. And we choose to be here. We choose to raise our families. We choose to protect Carroll County, Delphi, Flora because it's a great place. So it was very unfair. The stuff that I saw or heard was completely wrong.

[00:27:28] I don't know how much you want to talk about this, but it seems like that kind of reached a crescendo with the sheriff's election with a lot of ridiculous allegations, frankly, and frivolous lawsuits. Is there anything you want to say about that? I learned a lot about myself that I didn't know. They literally kind of tore me apart with just lies and made up things.

[00:27:53] And so I'll just tell you from my perspective, if I would have heard that the same thing happened to one of the other people that I was running against, I would have corrected that. I ran for sheriff because people wanted me to. I kind of view my life as there's workhorses and show ponies. And I'm a workhorse. I'm not a show pony. I don't want to be, I don't want all the spotlight from this case.

[00:28:23] I'd rather go crawl under a rock, to be honest with you. But that's who I am. I just, I let my work talk for me. So to hear the things that happened in an election, I don't even know if I need, I don't even know if I want to repeat them, but they were just so ridiculous. The county got sued by, I think, two ladies from, one was from North Carolina and one was from Michigan or something like that.

[00:28:52] I don't remember the exact outcome as far as it got kicked out. And I believe they had to pay some money back for attorney's fees for the county. Wow. That's all I've got for you. There was, there was, I'll, I'll take a lot of heat for whatever things I've done. But as a matter of fact, we talked about, I had an eyeglasses shop that my grandmother gave me. And I eventually brought on a partner.

[00:29:20] That partner opened another business, eyeglass business in Lafayette. And we closed mine down and went, I worked for him before becoming a jailer. But I learned I have a massage parlor in Lafayette. I had a dog fighting ring. News to me, it's just, I've lived, and I didn't know it. But I can laugh about it now.

[00:29:49] But at the time, that was really, I didn't run for sheriff to be lied about. You know, this isn't, it wasn't national politics. This wasn't Trump versus Biden. This was, it was the sheriff of Carroll County. And it should have been about who's going to be the best sheriff, protect the county, the citizens of Carroll County, hold his law enforcement officers accountable, make sure that the inmates are well cared for. That's what people should be picking.

[00:30:18] And for some reason, and it had to have been about this case. But people that are not from here decided to just put me on blast for things that I didn't even know about. I will say this, like, in our experience and also covering that lawsuit, which I just want to underscore for our listeners, was about a law that did not apply to the county.

[00:30:47] Like, you can't sue over a law that doesn't apply to a situation. Right, Kevin? There's like a long list of reasons why that lawsuit was, to be honest, dumb. It was just a dumb lawsuit. And it was justly thrown out and they justly had to pay costs. And it was about the case because I think what we've observed is that some case obsessives, a certain brand of case obsessives, seems uncomfortable with the idea that bad things can happen to good people.

[00:31:16] And so they need to sort of cast Carroll County as a whole and authorities in Carroll County and citizens in Carroll County as evil. And that's why this happened. And it says more about them and how they perceive the world and maybe have a lack of compassion, I think, than anything about Carroll County, frankly, which is a place with problems like any other place, but is a place with very nice people in our experience. They were very wrong. They're very wrong about Carroll County. They were wrong about me.

[00:31:46] And hopefully I'm doing the job that the citizens of Carroll County want me to do. And that's who I answer to. And you mentioned people wanted you to run for sheriff. You know, can I ask who in particular? Well, it started the first people. And I don't I don't want to misconstrue. I had aspirations of one day being sheriff. I one day would have ran. I didn't know it was going to be now.

[00:32:14] There was at that time, even including the sheriff, there was 13 people that worked at the sheriff's office, deputies, including the sheriff. And that toe blesden be didn't come to me and say, hey, you should run for sheriff. Mike Thomas, who is the chief deputy at the time, was going to run for sheriff. And he didn't come to me and say, hey, Tony, you should run for sheriff.

[00:32:40] But I believe every single deputy came to me and said. We would like you to be our leader. You you have all the qualities that this county wants or needs, and we would like you to do that. And then it just kind of spread like wildfire from that point, because I said, hey, I don't know. I'll think about it. And then citizens started getting in touch with me and saying, we would really like for you to do this.

[00:33:09] So that's where it happened. We talked about this ridiculous lawsuit. The the people who filed it suggested that there was something nefarious about the timing of the arrest of Richard Allen, that it was about time to happen with the election. Did anything about the election or the campaign affect any of the investigative decisions about Richard Allen? Absolutely not.

[00:33:36] And the one thing that I go back to when I hear that from that, people are saying that because, again, I really just avoid it. It's just noise. I don't I all I can think of is what did you want us to do? We believe this guy killed two little girls, brutally killed two little girls. And let's just stop where let's just let's just leave this on the back burner until after the election. I can't help the timing of it all.

[00:34:05] It was just ridiculous to think that it was anything to do with with any election or anything like that. Everybody that knows me and I'm not saying everybody in Carroll County knows me because, again, I'm not a show pony kind of guy. But. Nobody here was saying that to me. I didn't hear that from people here. It's it's the outside Carroll County noise that that blows that up. Yeah.

[00:34:29] And I mean, the scandal that would ensue if it came out that for optical reasons, law enforcement was not arresting someone who could pose a danger to the community just because that would look. I mean, yeah, that that would be a huge scandal. I wanted to ask you just going back a little bit, you know, in terms of prior to Richard Allen coming up on the radar.

[00:34:51] Were there any standout moments or memories from this investigation that kind of come to your mind or that you think about when it comes to that pre Richard Allen phase? Just a big roller coaster. There were times where we felt like we had momentum in the case and. You would you would hit that peak and the bottom would fall out and it wasn't the person that.

[00:35:18] Yeah, just that's the biggest thing that I take from it was it was a roller coaster ride. So this was an investigation where people would come up as possible suspects and you would run that down. And just every time you're not getting that probable cause, it's it's hitting a dead end, basically. Is that right? Correct. Yes. I guess. Can you tell us about. I don't know where you were when when Kathy Shank let you know that she what she had found.

[00:35:47] Kathy's wonderful. I wish everybody had a Kathy in their lives. We were at the investigation center and. But I kind of want to go back. Kathy missed the first month when this happened. She she wasn't here. She wasn't volunteering. I think she was in Florida or something and came back and. And just wanted to help.

[00:36:14] And Kathy for a long time just worked at the front desk when people would come in to give tips in person or or an investigation. And the investigator had called somebody to come in and talk to them. She she just worked at the front desk and that gradually increased. And she was filing stuff and organizing everything. But then Kathy started getting a little more. In the know of things. And. But that first month. Was still kind of not there for her.

[00:36:43] And she would. She was all the time. I mean, Kathy all the time would would go to me a lot or other investigators and say and and bring us a tip and say, hey, did you know this? And yes, Kathy. We knew that. And and that that just happened and happened. Well, that day. Kathy had brought me another tip. Did you know this? Yes, Kathy. We we know that.

[00:37:08] And I don't remember the exact time, but five minutes later she came back and and. Kathy's she's so little. And I think she thought. She was just annoying us all the time. And don't get me wrong. There may have been times. I love you, Kathy, but. Kathy's the hero. Abby and Libby are heroes. Kathy's the hero. But five minutes later, she brought me another tip.

[00:37:36] And I probably took it and probably had the words on the tip of my mouth that. Yes, Kathy, we knew this. And and I literally froze. Holy crap. This is the guy we've been wanting to talk to for five and a half years or however long it was. So you knew that quickly. Yeah, I knew there was going to be some work to it, but I knew I knew that quickly that that timeline, the the four girls.

[00:38:05] And there's big talk about three. There was a fourth girl with in that group that was just extremely young. So we didn't talk to her. But yeah, that was part of the change of direction for me was we went back and started at the beginning. We started looking through everything. Look, just really digging through the timeline. And as soon as I saw it, I was 98 percent. This was the guy on the bridge. This is the only guy I didn't know that we had talked to.

[00:38:35] Yes, some of the people we talked to found it especially meaningful that you would call them and say this is bridge guide because you're the devil's advocate person. And if the person who's good at finding the problems is saying this is it, that really meant something to them. Yeah, well, and and they enjoyed playing devil's advocate with me.

[00:38:56] I remember when we all when we all got together, believe it was the the next day and I wasn't in their minds per se, but they they they got to play devil's advocate with me. And I had to essentially stand up and and explain why I believed this was bridge guy. I don't think anybody at that point in the investigation, I don't think anybody was that excited to get that call.

[00:39:24] I feel like everybody was probably OK. Here we go. Another roller coaster. Yeah, I don't know. Again, I wasn't in their minds. Nobody told me that. But if I wouldn't have been in that room and been as as mostly sure as I was about what I was looking at, if someone called me and said, hey, we think we have bridge guy at a minute. OK, yeah, well, we'll talk about it tomorrow.

[00:39:48] OK, you know, something like that, because there were just so many peaks and valleys throughout the whole time. What steps did you all take after you learned of this lead that needed to be looked at? I mean, I know one thing that came up in trial was you personally went to CVS to sort of look at and document pictures of Alan's car. Just tell us a little bit about some of those experiences. Well, we just started our dive into Richard Allen. We looked up what vehicles they had owned.

[00:40:17] We knew that he had we found out that he worked at CVS. So I went down there and found the car that he was driving, took pictures of it, drove by his house trying to see any other vehicles, things like that. It was just a deep dive into who Richard Allen was. And then, of course, you had that interview with him, you and Steve Bullen. Can you discuss that experience? I would I would just say that that was an information gathering interview.

[00:40:47] We wanted to learn more from him in his own words. It seemed like Richard Allen, you know, hindsight looking back, a lot of his own words got him here. Yeah, I don't know how much detail the end of the interview turned sour. I wasn't in the room. And when I came back, I was like, what just happened? I was told he called Steve Mullin an asshole or something and walked out. And for those of us that know Steve Mullin, Steve's a wonderful interviewer, always has been.

[00:41:17] So it was just kind of shocking that someone would think that of Steve Mullin. And yeah, he walked out. Were you were you strapped by anything about Allen during that interview that you did with him? Just that he changed one thing that I guess wasn't shocking, but that he changed his time frame. Even at that point, if he didn't, he didn't kill the girls, my memory of 2017 would be a thousand million times better than my memory.

[00:41:45] Five and a half years later, but he had changed. He had changed his time. And at that point, too, we'd already found I believe we'd already found his car on the harvest store video that coincided with what he had said to Lieutenant Doolin. Same clothing. Was out on the bridge. I mean, everything he said kind of fell right into the timeline. You know, there was a lot of I don't know how much you worked on this angle because I know, again, it's a sprawling investigation.

[00:42:16] What did you make of the defense's contention that Odinism was, you know, not investigated thoroughly or not looked at enough and improperly dismissed? To say it wasn't investigated was absolutely false. It was thoroughly investigated. I think I think for me, I didn't get to sit through the trial as I was called as a witness for the defense and the prosecution.

[00:42:41] So with separation of witnesses, I missed all of the trial except for when I testified in closing arguments. But I think during the three day hearing I was in watching most of that, there's just no nexus. There's there's no no ties to it. There was there was no evidence that led us to believe anything about except for Richard Allen. Well, defense attorneys always attack law enforcement in trial. That's kind of normal.

[00:43:11] But at least to me, it seemed like this took on a new level. There was even this Frank's memorandum, which in large part just seemed to be a lengthy attack on you. I'm curious. Do they feel different to you from what other times defense attorneys have maybe been critical? Yeah, we deal we deal with this all the time and in just my experience and and I could be wrong. But, you know, when you don't have anything else to use to defend.

[00:43:41] You go after the law enforcement and we're not perfect. Mistakes can be made. It's how it's how you correct those mistakes and move forward. But a little over the top. I mean, this was more than than for me personally, I've ever went out. But if I was Richard Allen or if I was a defendant, I would want my defense attorneys to do everything in their power to to try and exonerate me.

[00:44:08] And if that's all they had was coming after us. Again, it's kind of like the social media thing. I didn't pay too much attention to the negativity that was portrayed or put out about me. So one thing that came up a lot was just like the safekeeping order around Allen. He can't be in Carroll County jail. I guess. Can we just talk more about that and just tell us about the realities of the Carroll County jail and.

[00:44:37] You know why Allen being here would have been problematic. It would have been extremely problematic. Well, first off, the safekeeping order was done by then sheriff Toe Blesenby. I don't even think I knew that was coming until after it after it had happened or as far as I think it was filed. I don't remember specifically, but it wasn't like he he felt like he needed to have include me in that decision, which I support the decision. A hundred percent.

[00:45:06] Our facility is 42 years old this year, I believe. And it's it shows its age. And this isn't like your house. That's that's 42 years old. This is a facility that that is operated every second of every day for 42 years. So it's run down. There are doors that that don't work. Those doors cost a hundred thousand dollars to fix those. Just one door.

[00:45:33] We have a bed space of 34 beds. We don't have any kind of segregation. We don't have medical segregation. We we we have one hallway that that you walk down that there's doors for all of the cells. In Carroll County, we have a budget line for housing out of county. It's we have people out of county right now. That's we have to do that to keep our numbers down here.

[00:46:02] Thank goodness we have a new jail. We're hoping in a month maybe we can we can start moving that alleviate all that. A lot of those things will be fixed. But it's not just the jail. It's not just the fact that we didn't have somewhere to keep someone safe. It's the fact that our staffing is so low. So basically at that time, there was, I believe, one jailer on duty for however many inmates that we have.

[00:46:33] And the attention, especially now in hindsight, the attention that Richard Allen evidently needed while he was at other places, including Cass County and DOC things, was just not something that we in Carroll County could have handled. So you're going into this trial and it's like you're kind of in dual roles in a way, because on the one hand, you're a witness and you were an investigator on the case.

[00:46:58] On the other hand, there's a whole managerial situation with the sheriff and it going through, you know, Carroll County courthouse. What was it like balancing that? Difficult. Thank goodness. I have great people that work for me that that really, really stepped up and and took some bulls by the horns and and we got it done.

[00:47:22] I thought it was not only my people, but all the other agencies that came here did an outstanding job. Those those people that came from other agencies represented their agencies in Carroll County and Carroll County.

[00:47:37] Thoroughly well, so to all their sheriffs and chiefs, you know, I can't say thank you enough to them, but without my guys stepping up and taking a role in this, that courthouse security was not a thing until. Essentially, I mean, that's that's the role of the sheriff, but it wasn't even until I got here that that I had convinced our county council. We now have two part time courthouse security guys.

[00:48:08] And so this was all even this was new territory for us and how to handle it. And I thought it went super great. We would have to concur. We were there every day and I just want to say we were incredibly impressed with the professionalism of the deputies, many of whom were Carroll County deputies, but some who were also outside. And it felt like they were all very much professional and working to keep people safe during a trial where, you know, a big crowd and could get contentious.

[00:48:37] Can you tell us about your team and what you felt went into that? Specifically, I guess I'll call out Mitch Catron. Again, none of them really had any kind of courthouse security training or anything like that. So Mitch, myself, Toe Blasenby kind of sat down and decided this is what we're going to do. We're going to need people to help us. And it's not just courthouse.

[00:49:05] So there were people in Lafayette at the juror, the hotels, the judge's hotel. There were it wasn't just a lot of people just saw the courthouse stuff. But there were there were people doing transporting escorting would be the word for the jury and the judge and and bringing them here and back to their hotels. And and what what initially sounded like a logistical nightmare went off super smooth.

[00:49:34] As Anya said, you not only have all of that on your plate, but you're also a witness who was testifying in this trial. What was the experience like of testifying? Interesting. It's nerve wracking. I'm the kind of guy. So even you guys come in to talk to me. I'm nervous. I was nervous about it. But I think that's I need to be nervous to I don't want to say do a good job, but but it keeps me on my toes.

[00:50:00] So if I told you that I wasn't nervous about testifying and in a worldwide case with all eyes on Carroll County, I'd be lying to you to say I wasn't nervous. But again, it's kind of like you get up there, you get sworn in, you sat down and this is what we do. And and so I thought it went fine. You went back and forth with Rosie and you gave as good as you got. I guess that wasn't my intent. Yeah.

[00:50:30] I if you say we went back and forth, I'll take your word for it because I just was in my zone in my world and and answer questions that are asked to the best of my ability. I mean, I got the sense that maybe I'm wrong, that maybe he underestimated you. He was like asking you questions like, oh, all the evidence is just the bullet, isn't it? And then you just were very calmly and meticulously listing all the other evidence against Richard Allen. I thought it was a very dramatic moment.

[00:50:57] Yeah, I really feel like was the was the bullet important? Absolutely. But I really felt like the timeline was was so good and squared away that and at any point in that timeline, you could take something away and it still it still worked. I mean, and we did that. The devil's advocate in me, you know, we took things out of the timeline when we were looking into Richard Allen.

[00:51:21] OK, well, the the three girls, if they weren't if they didn't see him, well, he puts himself there. We got him on. You know, you can just take things out of that and it still is what it is. What was it like to prepare with Prosecutor McClelland, you know, as a witness? I mean, you're in law enforcement, so it's not totally out of the realm that you're, you know, you testified before. But I'm you know, what was it like preparing for this one in particular with with McClelland? Nick, especially this one.

[00:51:49] And and I don't want to make it sound like he's not this anyway, but seemed like laser focused. This was in a courtroom that I've testified before. I've testified with Prosecutor McClelland before this one. He just really seemed to be on his game for a lack of better words. I thought, again, I missed the trial. I don't other than closing arguments and my testifying.

[00:52:14] But the three day hearing, the parts of that that I got to watch, I just thought Nick was fabulous. That closing argument in particular is really impressive. One question for about that, you know, so they they start deliberating. The jury starts deliberating. What's it like to wait for the verdict? It's always nerve wracking and the amount of days they took, it seems long.

[00:52:37] When you look at it in maybe terms of hours, and I don't know that I remember exactly how many hours they deliberated for, you know, as a day would click by or thing. And man, this this was brutally not brutally, but it was blatantly obvious to me that we had the right guy. Again, I missed the trial. Also, I don't know how well the the cases went for either side. So the devil's advocate in me. I knew there was no way in my head there was no it was not going to be not guilty.

[00:53:07] It was it was a tough few days waiting. But it was also in hindsight. I think it was good. I think they really I think they really looked into things. I don't I would have I wouldn't have felt as good, I think, if they would have just popped back in a couple hours with with any kind of verdict. So in my mind, I justified it as as they're they're wanting to get things right. Where were you when you heard there was a verdict?

[00:53:36] And were you in the courtroom for the verdict? I was in the courtroom for the verdict and I believe I was in the courthouse because we still had the security measures there, even though the trial wasn't necessarily happening. What was your feeling when you heard there was a verdict? Were you like, it's guilty or was part of you like, oh, man, I might be surprised. Well, to be honest with you, I really didn't. Kind of like I just said, I didn't think there was any way they would do a not guilty.

[00:54:05] So in my head. I felt like they were going to come back and say guilty. And then what was the reaction? What like what did you do immediately after hearing guilty on all four counts? I don't I don't want to speak for everybody else, but my reactions were never what I ever anticipated them being. You know, when when Richard Allen was arrested, for lack of better words, I thought I would do backflips, but I didn't.

[00:54:32] When we arrested him, we knew there was just still more work to do when the verdict came down and it was guilty. I'm glad I sat in the back of the room so that all I saw was the back of everybody's heads. I'm sure a tear. You know, you just spent a long time working on this and. And the result, the goal just happened. So it was.

[00:55:00] I don't know, stoically emotional because I just wanted to keep my composure. Looking back, what are the biggest misconceptions out there about this case that you've heard? Oh, my. I was going to say, I don't I don't pay a lot of attention to social media. And even when people. Hey, did you hear somebody saying this? I really don't give. Any credence, I don't I don't pay attention. Twelve people.

[00:55:29] Gave up their lives for essentially a month and lived in a hotel, couldn't call and order their own pizza. Even, you know, it's not like you or me being able to go to a hotel and, you know. What those twelve people did besides the the the verdict is just unbelievable. I don't know that I could have done what they did. And.

[00:55:56] So, again, those people that are naysayers or all these conspiracy theories and people saying that I'm a liar. Jerry Holman's a liar that we're all corrupt. It's just noise. The jury, Richard Allen's peers, twelve people that sat in that courtroom every second of testimony gave a guilty verdict. So I don't pay attention to the noise.

[00:56:25] They're not getting a rise out of me so they can say what they want. I know, as you've explained, you weren't able to actually attend most of the trial. But either behind the scenes or through your observations of them at other hearings, what were your impressions of the job that Nick McClellan, Stacey Diener and James Luttrell did? I didn't know James at all. And actually, I mean, I know who I knew who Stacey Diener was because she'd been up in White County, I believe.

[00:56:53] What a great team. I mean, they it seemed like. I don't know how they divided up what they were going to do and who was going to do what, but it just seems like. It was a puzzle, a three piece puzzle that they put together really well. And I thought Nick was laser focused. I got other than the hearings, I didn't get to see much of Stacey and James work.

[00:57:21] But after the fact, after everything was over and just hearing what other people said about how they were in the in the trial itself was they were great. They were helpful. Fabulous job. One name that's come up a few times in this conversation is Jerry Holman. Can you tell us what your impressions are of him? I think we're similar. We weren't going to quit. We're not we're not quitters. Just Jerry's an all around good guy. He's absolutely not a liar.

[00:57:51] And one of the things that, again, just really stands out, because I think somebody told me Jerry said he didn't know who in that conversation when we're deciding who was going to take the case. He couldn't remember who said, yeah, I don't know. This is a little bit over our heads. Yeah, that was me. But when they said they weren't going anywhere, that was never a thought that they were going to leave Carroll County out hanging to dry. It never was. But they followed through.

[00:58:18] They did everything and more that they said they would do. And they did fabulous, too. And then Steve Mullen, he's the other investigator who I feel like I associate him from the prosecutor's office, you from Carroll County and Homeland from state police. What was it like working along? Steve Mullen is quite possibly the greatest human being I've ever met in my entire life.

[00:58:40] For anyone to remotely say that things were intentionally lost or doesn't know Steve Mullen. He's a Christian. If you need somebody to talk to, you can talk to Steve Mullen. Steve Mullen is the guy. And I'm a Christian. I go to church. But, you know, we cuss. But you watch what you say around Steve Mullen. You try not to cuss. And when you cuss around Steve, you feel bad.

[00:59:10] And you feel like you just, you know, like when you were cussing around your parents when you're a little kid or something. Steve is a wonderful human being. Would give you the shirt off his back and his pants or whatever it took to make sure that any other person in this world is doing okay. Okay. So all of the stuff that was said about Steve Mullen couldn't be farther from the truth.

[00:59:36] What did the investigators and prosecutors who worked on this case mean to you now that you've all been through this unique and often disturbing situation together? For me, I don't know that it's any different than what it was prior to. I think we know a little bit more about each other in general. Well, again, our drive to see this come to an end wouldn't have stopped if Kathy Shanks hadn't found that tip.

[01:00:05] We would still be working right now as we speak. It could have been pretty easy at any point in time to just say we've done all we can do and let the case go cold. Because, again, I keep hearing people talk about it was a cold case. It was never, in my eyes, a cold case. There was always, we were always working on something. So I never viewed it as a cold case personally.

[01:00:29] And I don't know that a different group of people, because you talk about, you say things, you say Jerry Holman, you say Steve Mullen. We talk about prosecutors. My name gets brought up. The other people that worked on this case are incredible as well. You're just not hearing their names. People like Dave Vito, outstanding investigator. And just others. I could go through a list, but I won't.

[01:00:59] But it wasn't just me, Jerry, and Steve Mullen. There were more people involved with this. And they forever hold a special place in my heart. But they had that to start with. So I don't think, in my head personally, I'm really any different than where I was before. This case involves just the brutal death of children. It's an awful case for anyone to immerse themselves in, for this jury of everyday people to kind of be thrown into.

[01:01:27] How do you feel this case has emotionally affected you? There were days I cried. We're supposed to be big, tough police guys. And I guess I'm not just that. There were times it affected my, a lot of times it affected my home life.

[01:01:54] We put in a lot of hours working on this case. And again, hours that people have no clue about, will probably never know about. I think Jerry said something like, you know, 10-hour days. There was a lot more of 12-plus hour days. I feel like in the beginning of this, I don't know that we were really even sleeping, thinking we were going to bring this to a close that quick. But I learned a lot about myself.

[01:02:24] I, even growing up here, I learned a lot about this community and what great people they are. I think half of my weight gain came in the first year of 2017 because people wouldn't stop feeding us. Even clear through the trial, there were people feeding us at the trial. I mean, I knew this was a great place to live and work. I choose to be here. I want to be their sheriff.

[01:02:54] But they never ceased to amaze me. And that has an emotional toll on it that people don't get to see. You mentioned people feeding you guys. I know people who come to mind with that were actually Libby's family were feeding people a lot at trial. Even people who, frankly, have been horrible to them online. And just absolutely horrible people, you know, for you as an investigator and as someone, you know, sort of in some ways like representing Carroll County in this case to a certain extent.

[01:03:24] What can you tell us about your relationship with the families, the two families in this case and what they mean to you? And for starters, so I lost my son, was 18 years old, my youngest son, and he died in a car crash. So I thought, you know, you go to all these trainings and they tell you during these trainings, you know, don't ever think that you can put yourself in those shoes. And I kind of thought I could because I lost my son.

[01:03:54] And then I had to really rethink that because he died in a crash. I mean, he wasn't out on a trail minding their own business. He wasn't 13, 14 years old.

[01:04:14] And so even I can't stand in these families' shoes and remotely think that I understand what they're going through. I might just a tad little bit. I understand the loss part of it, but these families are the strongest people I know. And for your example of them, I think where they passed out cookies or bread or something. Yeah, banana bread. Wow.

[01:04:45] Just again, that's what you get when you come to Carroll County. I mean, that is, I'm not going to lie. It's not every single person. But in general, we're just a welcoming, happy you're here kind of place. And yet the families are the strongest people I think I've ever met in my life.

[01:05:11] And they supported us, surely, behind the scenes more than I know. They were frustrated. Kudos to the Germans, the Patties, and the Williams. I don't know that I could have done, been as strong as what they were. And done. I'm so sorry for the loss of your son. Thank you. For you as an investigator and worked so hard on this for so long, what do the memories of Abby and Libby themselves mean to you?

[01:05:39] We probably wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Libby taking out her phone, capturing two-ish seconds of some stranger that for whatever reason, they were nervous, they were fearful. And she took that video.

[01:06:07] And again, we don't know how it necessarily got underneath Abby, but Abby hiding that phone, we wouldn't be here, I don't think. We had that from the beginning, so I didn't have to think about whether or not we needed to.

[01:06:24] But how for teenage girls to do that and endure whatever they went through, they're just, they're special. It's great to see that Abby and Libby, the softball park, no one will ever forget those two girls here.

[01:06:50] We would like to again thank Sheriff Tony Luggett for taking the time to speak with us today. We so appreciate it. Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:07:17] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[01:07:41] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com. If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

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[01:11:24] And if you're new to Viah, get a free gift of your choice. That's V-I-I-A, hemp.com, and use code MSHEET at checkout. Spell the code. M-S-H-E-E-T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out. Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[01:11:54] Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us. And our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them. We love our sponsors. Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey. That can seem daunting. It is daunting. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like, what am I doing?

[01:12:22] But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future. You can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start automatically saving and investing. That money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement. And you don't need to be rich. You don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment.

[01:12:52] So it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're interested, head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involved risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor.

[01:13:20] You important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor.