The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen Goes to the Indiana Supreme Court: The Record of In Camera Proceedings

[00:00:00] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls as well as suicide.

[00:00:08] So we all remember that back on October 19th there was a hearing in the Richard Allen case.

[00:00:16] Actually I guess perhaps it'd be more accurate to say there was not a hearing in the case

[00:00:20] because Judge Gull came out and she spoke to those assembled in the courtroom

[00:00:26] into the cameras in the court and indicated that Brad Rosie and Andrew Baldwin had chosen to withdraw from the case.

[00:00:34] Subsequently, of course those two attorneys indicated that that wasn't the complete story.

[00:00:42] They indicated that in a secret closed door meeting, prior to this public hearing,

[00:00:49] they'd essentially been forced off the case.

[00:00:52] The judge Gull had indicated they needed to resign from the case

[00:00:57] or they would be publicly shamed in front of the cameras, which they maintain violates

[00:01:03] the due process rights of their client.

[00:01:06] Now until today we had no way of evaluating any of this really,

[00:01:13] but today that has changed because there has been a release of the transcript of this secret closed door meeting.

[00:01:21] Today we're going to be reading from a few select sections of this transcript

[00:01:27] and discussing what we're seeing in these excerpts and what they may mean for what's to come ahead in this case.

[00:01:35] My name is Ania Kane, I'm a journalist.

[00:01:38] And I'm Kevin Greenlee, I'm an attorney.

[00:01:40] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:42] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:01:49] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:51] And this is The Delphi Murders.

[00:01:54] Richard Allen goes to the Indiana Supreme Court.

[00:01:58] The record of in-camera proceedings.

[00:02:01] I think these transcripts are interesting for a number of reasons.

[00:02:52] First of all, it's just plain interesting to be able to see what goes on behind closed doors.

[00:02:58] Absolutely.

[00:02:59] And secondly, because it gives us a chance to really evaluate what has been said about this meeting over the last few weeks.

[00:03:07] Now Judge Gull has not made any public statements about this meeting nor has Nick McClialen,

[00:03:12] but the other two people in the room, defense attorneys Brad Rosie and Andrew Baldwin have talked about it.

[00:03:21] And they've indicated that they felt ambushed when they showed up at this meeting and learned about what Judge Gull had in mind to happen that day.

[00:03:34] Now before we start reading some of these transcripts, I wanted to note just for clarity, you're going to hear the word disqualification.

[00:03:45] And disqualification is basically another way of saying that an attorney would be fired.

[00:03:52] Booted off the case.

[00:03:53] Yes.

[00:03:54] If I asked for an attorney to be disqualified, that means I'm asking for that attorney to leave the case.

[00:04:01] And as we all know now, about a week or so prior to this October 19th meeting, prosecutor Nick McClialen had asked the judge to disqualify Rosie and Baldwin from the case.

[00:04:17] So he was essentially saying they've messed up so badly over this leak situation that trust is gone and they should be removed from the entire process?

[00:04:28] Yes.

[00:04:29] So when you hear in these transcripts words like disqualification, that's what we're talking about.

[00:04:35] One technical note normally when we read quotes from official documents, we denote them with a little sound effect.

[00:04:41] But today we're pretty strapped for time and we want to make sure we get this out to you as quickly as possible.

[00:04:46] So we're just going to be noting whose quotes were reading beforehand.

[00:04:50] So just keep that in mind.

[00:04:51] Normally we put a little more into that.

[00:04:53] But at this point, speed is at the essence.

[00:04:56] Anya, why don't you read the first speech from Brad Rosie that we went to highlight?

[00:05:00] Yeah, this is a quote from Brad Rosie who of the two defense attorneys did most of the talking, although Baldwin certainly spoke up.

[00:05:09] So this is from Brad Rosie.

[00:05:10] It's pretty obvious that the tension from our side is coming, you know, from the words disqualification that were murmured in the phone conference that we had a couple of weeks ago.

[00:05:19] I'm assuming you understand how that kind of raises the intensity level of the circumstances.

[00:05:24] And I guess my if I have a concern today, it's that, you know, we're going to go out on the kind of in the public, so to speak, in the courtroom on the record and have a discussion about an ongoing investigation.

[00:05:37] And I that's what I kind of gathered from the email.

[00:05:40] You know, I think you invited Nick to talk about that if you wanted to.

[00:05:43] So let's talk about that.

[00:05:46] One thing that really jumps out at me from that is in these remarks, Rosie is saying when we came here, we already knew that disqualification was something that was on the table.

[00:06:02] He's acknowledging that he's further indicating that because it's on the table that's raised our tension level.

[00:06:10] I think the fact that disqualification was on the table doesn't eliminate due process issues.

[00:06:18] Due process refers to let's have a system by which to address this and make sure that people are heard out and the process is followed if there needs to be sanctions or even removal of attorneys in the case.

[00:06:31] So them knowing, hey, we're going in, we might get disqualified.

[00:06:35] That's a separate issue that's not that doesn't make it so that due process is being followed.

[00:06:41] But it does kind of temper some of the claims about ambushes that have been bandied about in the public sphere as of late.

[00:06:50] So trying to add a little nuance there, hopefully that makes sense.

[00:06:55] What do you think, Kevin?

[00:06:57] Yeah, that's my concern because there seems to be an acknowledgement here that we know disqualification is going to be discussed today.

[00:07:04] That's kind of raising our tension levels a bit.

[00:07:07] And Rosie is making it clear to me, at least in this and other statements in this that he seems exceptionally concerned about the media hearing something negative about the defense side in all of this.

[00:07:23] His argument, as it turns out, is that he feels that that would hurt Richard Allen, but it certainly would also hurt other people in this namely Rosie and Baldwin.

[00:07:35] You could look at that if you were being critical, you might say that's a bit self serving.

[00:07:40] Yeah, if you wanted to be cynical, you could also point out that Judge Gold herself in the hearing for the motion to transport pointed out that a lot of the arguments that Brad Rosie was making that day in court which purported to be about the best interest of Richard Allen seemed really to focus on the convenience of Brad Rosie.

[00:08:04] In other words, if Richard Allen is kept here that's inconvenient for me.

[00:08:08] If he's kept here that is convenient for me.

[00:08:10] Right.

[00:08:11] And so it's just it's worth noting that because I think you could look at it sympathetically and say, OK, I could see that being in the best interest of Allen.

[00:08:19] If his attorneys are basically called out for being grossly negligent, maybe that makes people believe less in his cause.

[00:08:27] But if if you're also I mean, it's a professional humiliation.

[00:08:32] This is the biggest case of either of their careers and that's not exactly good advertising isn't.

[00:08:38] No.

[00:08:40] I went through another remark from Brad Rosie that I thought was worth highlighting.

[00:08:47] He's talking here about does it make sense for us just to talk about it here in chambers?

[00:08:54] Does it make sense for us to go and talk about it in open court?

[00:08:59] And what Rosie says, I'm not sure that we're going to benefit or that this will be productive to just open floor this.

[00:09:07] And that's my biggest concern today.

[00:09:09] And it sounds there that he did though in the past he's talked about transparency.

[00:09:16] It sounds like he's not really interested in having this out publicly.

[00:09:21] No, there's the willingness to have transparency seems to be very much subjective on what the defense feels it can control about the narrative of this case.

[00:09:29] By the defense.

[00:09:31] I mean the old former defense, you know, maybe they'll come back, maybe they won't.

[00:09:34] But I think that there is an element here of picking and choosing.

[00:09:40] You know, I think a commitment to transparency means at all times.

[00:09:44] And it's surprising to me because presently we're in an Indiana Supreme Court battle for the fate of the case and they're trying to force Judge Goh off.

[00:09:55] And there's all this back and forth and like, you know, how could they have done this?

[00:10:00] How could they have thrown us off?

[00:10:01] But it seems like here they very much do not want to go out and publicly own anything that's happened with this leak.

[00:10:10] So it's kind of a weird discrepancy because here it's like, you know, they will deal with that if they feel comfortable because they feel like they're in control.

[00:10:19] But like in this situation, it's out of their control and they really do not want the press hearing about it in this setting.

[00:10:25] And also it's doubly interesting to me because one of the complaints we've heard a lot since October 19th is that this session was held privately in Judge Goh's chamber.

[00:10:42] It wasn't a public hearing and he seems in comments like this to be suggesting, well maybe it's appropriate to handle it privately.

[00:10:51] I don't want to open for this.

[00:10:53] There's no point in that from my point of view.

[00:10:55] Court TV cameras are rolling, you know, which we note this is the first hearing where that was the case.

[00:11:02] It was going to be televised so that compounds any issue for the defense because it's not just going to be the same little group of Indianapolis media people or Fort Wayne media people or local YouTubers or podcasters.

[00:11:17] It is going to be court TV.

[00:11:20] It's going to be national and global.

[00:11:22] So there is a kind of a discrepancy there because I think the defense is often touted as the side that's calling for transparency.

[00:11:32] And that's true, but we should not necessarily see that as universally true in every situation with this case because obviously this was something they did not want to happen in the public sphere.

[00:11:45] Now I want to read a remark that Nick McLean made during this hearing and actually I should note that he doesn't really talk a lot during this hearing.

[00:11:54] No, he talks very little.

[00:11:58] He made a point here that I think is worth highlighting.

[00:12:01] McLean, I'm concerned the leak is not just a one time leak.

[00:12:06] The evidence that we have shows it is an ongoing leak.

[00:12:10] What's next?

[00:12:14] What's next?

[00:12:15] Yeah.

[00:12:17] So this is something that I think is very interesting.

[00:12:21] So I want to kind of break down the leak once more because it's confusing and I think it bears repeating.

[00:12:28] The leak involved original leaker Mitch Westerman, a friend and former employee of Andrew Baldwin's going into his office in Franklin, going into a conference room and photographing discovery materials that were on a table in there and leaking them to a man we designate as are.

[00:12:52] Then sent them to at least two people and things got out there further.

[00:12:59] So that's what everyone's talking about when they're talking about a leak, but there's another element to this.

[00:13:06] What is that?

[00:13:07] It's not been discussed as much as much.

[00:13:10] So the other element to this, we were we were sent screenshots of conversations between are and a man called Mark. Mark is the man who sent us the photos. He's not the original leaker, but he's the one who sent them to us.

[00:13:26] He also cooperated fully with the police investigation on this.

[00:13:30] And in fact instructed us to share everything we knew and share these screenshots with law enforcement.

[00:13:35] These screenshots again, the conversation on Facebook between Mark and are and in them are is spilling secrets.

[00:13:45] He's sharing who the defense is going to smear next potentially as an odinist.

[00:13:50] He's sharing Baldwin's travel schedule where he's going when he is he is sharing strategy.

[00:13:58] He's sharing what discovery the defense just opened up and is digging into.

[00:14:01] He's sharing all of these strategic insights from the defense with Mark.

[00:14:09] And I think looking about where this are got this information from, he's getting it from Western men.

[00:14:17] Now let's add to that in a letter to the court.

[00:14:23] Rosie and this is the only time the defense has acknowledged this element of it every other time they're only talking about the leak of images.

[00:14:31] But in this letter to the court, Rosie acknowledges that Baldwin and Westerman talked about strategy.

[00:14:38] The indication here is that they talked about Delphi strategy.

[00:14:42] So when we talk about an instance where Westerman does something horrible to a friend, sneaks in, takes photos, sends them to a guy.

[00:14:53] The guy sends them to others and it spreads.

[00:14:56] That's one thing, but that's not all that happened.

[00:14:58] In addition, Westerman was not just sneaking around.

[00:15:02] He was openly speaking with Baldwin seemingly and getting all kinds of defense strategy that frankly, I don't know.

[00:15:09] I think if you look at it a certain way undermines Richard Allen's rights that some of this is being spread around.

[00:15:15] It's undermining his strength at trial.

[00:15:18] If they're getting out to the internet, then maybe there's less of an element of surprise.

[00:15:23] Maybe there's some damage to Allen in that capacity.

[00:15:28] And so when McLeeland is talking about an ongoing leak, I believe that he's alluding to, based on the investigation that was done,

[00:15:40] a feeling that perhaps this leak went beyond Westerman's actions and in fact affected Baldwin as well.

[00:15:49] And we can't know at this point what exactly was found.

[00:15:53] What was any more information found to make them think maybe it's even bigger than this?

[00:15:57] It's not clear from this and I just don't know, but it is fair to say that there was at the very least questionable disclosure to Westerman

[00:16:07] because it was getting out through R that there was.

[00:16:10] And that's a concern for McLeeland?

[00:16:14] Yes.

[00:16:15] And yeah, and that also puts more culpability on the defense team rather than we were just the victim of this Westerman character.

[00:16:23] And of course, this all leads to an insurmountable tragedy because then R, the man we are calling R out of respect for his family,

[00:16:32] died by suicide at the heart of all of this, a man lost his life, a man who had a family.

[00:16:38] And I think we can all agree that being involved in the leak of crime scene photos of children to the internet is a horrible thing,

[00:16:48] but you're more than your worst mistake.

[00:16:50] And in this case, another family has lost somebody and it's horrible.

[00:16:56] It's unfathomable.

[00:16:58] I just, I don't know.

[00:17:00] Anyway, I wanted to explain the leak thing because I think some of it gets lost,

[00:17:02] but I think that I think we can at least understand what McLean is alluding to there.

[00:17:09] Yes.

[00:17:11] Another comment from Rosie that I wanted to highlight, you know,

[00:17:16] Ania was just talking about people like Mitch Westerman.

[00:17:19] Mitch Westerman of course was a close friend of Andy Baldwin's.

[00:17:23] And Rosie at one point says, I'm not distancing myself from Mr. Baldwin.

[00:17:28] I'm just saying I have no connection with any of these people.

[00:17:30] Okay.

[00:17:32] So basically he's saying I'm not distancing myself from Andy Baldwin and now I'm going to distance myself from Andy Baldwin saying it's not my fault.

[00:17:39] It's Andy's fault.

[00:17:41] I don't know these people.

[00:17:43] Yeah, I've noticed a couple of instances in some of the documentation.

[00:17:47] I don't think that these men are enemies or that they're like broken apart on this,

[00:17:52] but in his letter, Rosie mentioned that Westerman was out seeing a girlfriend in Franklin, Indiana.

[00:17:58] Westerman, of course, is a married man.

[00:18:01] It's possible that there's some sort of open relationship understanding here,

[00:18:04] but it also seems possible that Rosie sort of vindictively mentioned that detail to embarrass Westerman because he was annoyed.

[00:18:11] And maybe even more than maybe annoyed is a mild word to put how he was feeling here.

[00:18:15] There's more there's more a spiciness to some of Rosie's filings.

[00:18:19] He's like getting his digs in and there's a couple of points.

[00:18:22] This is one of them where you kind of do sense a distancing from Baldwin.

[00:18:26] That being said, they're not extreme.

[00:18:30] I don't feel like there's been a huge falling out here and we certainly couldn't surmise that from a few legal documents.

[00:18:35] Right.

[00:18:37] And then there's lots of long speeches by Rosie from Rosie in one for instance.

[00:18:44] He complains a lot about Barbara McDonald going on court TV and showing information that Rosie believes shows there's a leak.

[00:18:52] And then he goes on to say.

[00:18:55] And Barbara McDonald, of course, is a reporter.

[00:18:58] She started out as at HLN and now is at court TV.

[00:19:02] She's covered the Delphi case.

[00:19:04] This is his attempt to minimize the leak that came out of Andy Baldwin's office.

[00:19:09] He says the court needs to have some contacts that this is nothing new.

[00:19:13] He then says I've lost sleep over the fact there's a man who's dead that I don't even know.

[00:19:19] And frankly, Andy doesn't know.

[00:19:22] So it feels like he's also trying to minimize their connection to our.

[00:19:26] There's a lot of minimization going on here.

[00:19:28] But I will say with Barbara McDonald, you know, he's saying she's citing investigative sources.

[00:19:34] And the thing about McDonald in particular that I think is worth noting is that as a reporter, if you follow her reporting on Delphi,

[00:19:42] she has not always reported everything immediately after getting it.

[00:19:45] That's just and that's not a criticism.

[00:19:47] It's just an observation.

[00:19:49] There were that's the way reporters were.

[00:19:51] That's the way most reported, especially for a big network like HLN, which of course is connected to CNN and court TV.

[00:19:58] You can't necessarily there might be further vetting or maybe there's an agreement with a source that changes later.

[00:20:04] And so I don't think it's fair to necessarily assume that Barbara McDonald got what she reported like the day before.

[00:20:14] And that's proof of a leak.

[00:20:16] She may have been sitting on it for a while and then it became relevant.

[00:20:20] So she decided to report it now.

[00:20:22] We just don't know.

[00:20:24] I'm not saying that she didn't benefit for a leak as possible.

[00:20:27] She did, but I also don't think we can assume that because that's not always the nature, especially of TV reporting for these big networks.

[00:20:34] These big networks tend to be very cautious and conservative about what they do and when they do it.

[00:20:39] So I his his logic and reasoning here is is fine to a layperson, but to somebody who understands how media works.

[00:20:51] Not so much in my opinion.

[00:20:53] Now we've also heard an awful lot about Judge Goal telling the attorneys, Here's what I intend to say in open court.

[00:21:02] And it was during these remarks that Judge Goal for lack of a better word is said to have laid out her indictment against Baldwin and Rosie to explain exactly.

[00:21:15] And in some detail what she feels they did wrong in the case.

[00:21:21] And now that we have this transcripts that were released basically at the request of Baldwin and Rosie.

[00:21:28] I like to read the remarks she had intended to say in court that day.

[00:21:33] Judge Goal.

[00:21:35] I have concerns regarding the defense team and the totality of the circumstances surrounding representation of Mr. Allen.

[00:21:42] Candidly, my concerns began at our hearing on November 22nd of last year.

[00:21:47] Mr. McLean filed a motion for a gag order and we were in chambers and you assured me gentlemen.

[00:21:53] We don't want the media in our lives.

[00:21:55] We will not try this case in the media.

[00:21:58] And less than two weeks later you issued an undated press release that contained an awful lot of information that would not normally be revealed.

[00:22:06] I don't know.

[00:22:08] I think you knew or should have known those are potentially violative of rule 3.6 of the rules of professional responsibility.

[00:22:15] But it is that press release that prompted me to issue the order December 2nd, granting the gag order until further hearing.

[00:22:21] April 18th of this year, you filed a notice of tort claim against the Department of Correction.

[00:22:27] You stated in that notice that it was your intent to pursue quote our client's claims against you.

[00:22:32] The full amount of damages sought on behalf of my client is unknown.

[00:22:36] I don't know how you could do that in representing Mr. Allen in a criminal matter and then launch off into a civil matter.

[00:22:43] I think that's inappropriate.

[00:22:45] What do you make of this concern about the tort?

[00:22:47] Why is that such a big deal that they filed a civil claim while they're dealing with this criminal thing?

[00:22:53] I think that raises all sorts of interesting potential issues, potentially even around conflict.

[00:22:59] If I'm a criminal attorney and I have a potential financial interest in a civil claim that my client might have later,

[00:23:09] that raises interest in my making decisions for my client in the criminal matter based on what's best for him or what's best for my own potential interests.

[00:23:18] That's a central thread in all of this.

[00:23:20] What is in the interest of Brad Rosie and Andy Baldwin and what is in the interest of Richard Allen?

[00:23:25] And can we peel, can we separate those?

[00:23:28] And if so, did Brad Rosie intend to be the civil attorney in such a case?

[00:23:33] And if so, did he intend to get a percentage of any settlement in that case?

[00:23:41] Jeez, Louise. This case. That does seem messy. I didn't even really think about that.

[00:23:47] Well, okay. I want to get into... There's been a lot of talk over this about Aleek from Brandon Woodhouse.

[00:23:57] He's a inmate, kind of a person who's been in trouble with the law.

[00:24:03] Short version is Brandon Woodhouse. First three letters of his name are B-R-A.

[00:24:09] First three letters of Brad Rosie's names are B-R-A.

[00:24:13] Andy Baldwin at some point sends some confidential materials to Brandon Woodhouse.

[00:24:20] He says it's because he meant to send them to Brad Rosie and it was an email autofill issue.

[00:24:24] He had seemingly been courting Woodhouse because Woodhouse told a story about how he was abused within Carroll County jail.

[00:24:33] And that's kind of a theme with Beth Stone and Woodhouse and people who the defense basically, you know, regardless of your own credibility come and say bad things about the people, you know, were going after.

[00:24:46] So I thought that was interesting. But yeah, Woodhouse is coming into this now.

[00:24:52] So why don't you take up Judge Gohle's remarks just as she begins to talk about Brandon Woodhouse?

[00:24:59] In May of this year, we were notified by the state of the Brandon Woodhouse arrest and the subsequent discovery of your work product.

[00:25:06] And I think it was an outline that you created for yourselves with the discovery. It was pretty detailed. I don't know if that's the right word.

[00:25:14] That apparently happened in December of last year and that was not revealed to anybody not shared with the court. It wasn't shared with you, although apparently you guys knew about what was going on.

[00:25:25] Baldwin, he didn't know.

[00:25:28] You knew Baldwin. I did know.

[00:25:32] So here's Judge Gulligan.

[00:25:34] So then Mr. Woodhouse gets arrested and here we are grossly negligent to email that to the wrong Brad.

[00:25:40] So that's quite an indictment.

[00:25:43] Yeah, that is on a number of levels.

[00:25:46] First what she's saying Baldwin's original mistake and sending that to the wrong person was negligent but not telling anybody.

[00:25:52] Not telling anyone.

[00:25:54] He didn't tell his co-counsel about this.

[00:25:57] That's insane to me.

[00:25:59] I don't know why you wouldn't tell everybody, but certainly your co-counsel if that's true.

[00:26:05] And I have to imagine it's true because Baldwin's the one saying that.

[00:26:09] He's not being acute. You didn't tell anyone. Hey, I did.

[00:26:12] He's admitting that.

[00:26:14] Why?

[00:26:16] To me, that is very, very troubling.

[00:26:20] Why didn't he tell Rosie about this leak for lack of a better word to Brandon Woodhouse as soon as it happened?

[00:26:28] I'm sympathetic to emailing snafus.

[00:26:31] I think we've all been there.

[00:26:32] Hopefully we've not been there in something as important as letting somebody have, you know, discovery product.

[00:26:39] But we've all been there.

[00:26:42] But when an honest mistake happens, I would expect it to be disclosed promptly.

[00:26:50] And the admission that not even Rosie knew about it.

[00:26:54] I don't know. That's just, I was not expecting that.

[00:26:58] I just figured that was something that everybody was made aware of quickly and it was kind of like, that's a huge mistake.

[00:27:02] But we understand it. So we're not going to make a big deal about it.

[00:27:07] Why don't you get back to Judge Goal's remarks?

[00:27:10] Sure. So here's Judge Goal.

[00:27:14] Your pleadings on the safekeeping order contain inaccuracies and falsehoods.

[00:27:19] That was proven in the hearing we conducted in June.

[00:27:22] The evidence presented by the state clearly demonstrated the falsity of your claims.

[00:27:27] And that was very troubling to me.

[00:27:28] So Judge Goal is basically saying you lied in your motion for safe transport, which is speaking as someone who sat through the entire hearing on that motion for transport and heard all of the testimony.

[00:27:48] I can't say that her analysis of that is untrue.

[00:27:52] It's not. I mean, I think there are ways of looking at it differently in fairness.

[00:27:57] I think you could, if you were being very sympathetic, very generous to the defense, you could say, well, maybe they got some facts wrong.

[00:28:07] Maybe they misinterpreted some things.

[00:28:09] Maybe they exaggerated or were misinformed and then just ran with it.

[00:28:17] Or you could look at it like outright exaggeration to the point where they're not true anymore.

[00:28:25] I guess is how I would put it.

[00:28:27] Also known as lies.

[00:28:29] I kind of, we've talked about that hearing a lot behind the scenes.

[00:28:35] Kevin, it was sort of a high watermark or at least the filing that preceded it, the transport motion, the order, the transport order.

[00:28:43] Yeah.

[00:28:45] Because we both read that and we were like, wow, at this point there's absolutely no reason for them to exaggerate.

[00:28:53] You exaggerate, you lie, you lose credibility.

[00:28:55] I think you and I immediately like this, this must be true.

[00:29:00] And that's crazy.

[00:29:02] And here we go.

[00:29:04] And that hearing sort of outlined that there was going to be a try this in the press, put attention grabbing photos in your filing so that the press runs with them, put attention grabbing claims that then turn out to be either exaggerated or you know,

[00:29:26] and it's been like that ever since.

[00:29:28] I think at first we were maybe inclined to be like, well, maybe they're trying something and it didn't quite work out and they were reaching a little bit but there's something fundamentally there and then we got the Franks memorandum.

[00:29:44] So I don't know.

[00:29:48] I guess that's just interesting.

[00:29:50] I mean, it's interesting that that ended up being kind of almost a prophecy or foreshadowing for how everything else was going to go down in this case.

[00:30:00] And then Judge Gull had a few remarks about what was then happening in the case.

[00:30:04] Yes.

[00:30:06] Judge Gull says, and then the last couple of weeks that we have been dealing with say provided you discovery.

[00:30:11] That has been severely compromised.

[00:30:14] We have an ongoing investigation.

[00:30:16] I'm not going to call it a criminal investigation.

[00:30:19] Don't know what it is, but it's clearly being investigated by the state of Indiana.

[00:30:23] Everyone involved has sought counsel, including you, Mr Baldwin.

[00:30:27] You've had an attorney enter written appearance this morning.

[00:30:30] I want to signify this.

[00:30:33] The fact that Baldwin brought in David Hennessey to be his defense attorney and all this was one of the weirdest things I've ever heard about or seen.

[00:30:44] In a criminal case like this, it just seems like it's out of like a like a comedy sketch or something.

[00:30:51] They're all going to start lawyering up and like just going to be like 30 lawyers in the in the court all of a sudden.

[00:30:57] I mean, that was bizarre, but she's basically, I mean, I'd be curious though, is this alluding to other people lawyering up?

[00:31:04] I'm not going to go there.

[00:31:07] I don't know.

[00:31:08] I don't.

[00:31:10] In this in this back and forth, Rosie and Baldwin characterize themselves as having cooperated with the investigation into the leak and even reference they went to their respective state police posts, I guess, mean, meaning the post most local to them.

[00:31:24] But I would I would be really curious if their characterization is shared by the judge and the prosecution that they cooperated with this investigation.

[00:31:35] I would be very, very curious.

[00:31:38] I'm not I'm not I don't know.

[00:31:41] I have no idea.

[00:31:44] But the fact that this references to everyone lawyering up just kind of hits different.

[00:31:51] Judge Gull is indicated mentioned that Baldwin had an attorney, David Hennessey, and she mentioned some of the stuff that Hennessey included in his filing that morning.

[00:32:07] He included the fact that you left materials all over a conference room table accessible to anyone.

[00:32:13] And this is a friend of yours who apparently you have consulted with on this case.

[00:32:17] So again, it's up to you if you wish to pursue that.

[00:32:20] I'm looking at the totality of the circumstances.

[00:32:23] You know, when I look at suppression, the case law requires me to look at the totality of the circumstances.

[00:32:27] And that's what I'm doing.

[00:32:29] And it pains me to say this, but the totality of these circumstances demonstrate gross negligence and incompetence on the part of the defense team.

[00:32:38] I am unsatisfied with your representation of Mr. Allen.

[00:32:41] I am gravely concerned about his rights to have competent, non negligent representation.

[00:32:46] He currently doesn't have that right now because what you have demonstrated is negligence and incompetence.

[00:32:53] Now I'm sharing my thoughts with you privately.

[00:32:55] I don't want to say this in open court.

[00:32:58] I would encourage you to talk privately about what you wish to do.

[00:33:01] I don't want this coming out.

[00:33:03] It is not where we need to be with this case, but I will.

[00:33:06] But you don't know that.

[00:33:08] You have just now been made aware of my concerns and where I'm landing.

[00:33:12] So if you wish to have a private conversation, I would encourage you to do that.

[00:33:15] I don't believe your client is here yet.

[00:33:17] Okay, so there we get to...

[00:33:24] Can you read us a little bit further?

[00:33:26] There's a fun exchange with Baldwin.

[00:33:27] Oh, sure.

[00:33:29] This was 41-37.

[00:33:32] No, he's not.

[00:33:35] Clearly you'll need to speak with him as well.

[00:33:37] Baldwin interjects.

[00:33:39] I'm not good at reading between the lines.

[00:33:41] You're a lawyer.

[00:33:43] That's what you do for a living.

[00:33:45] Okay, let's talk about all this.

[00:33:47] Jeez, okay.

[00:33:49] So yeah.

[00:33:51] I'm getting tense just reading some of this stuff.

[00:33:55] But that's where she's...

[00:33:56] She's laying out a pretty strong case against them.

[00:34:01] And...

[00:34:04] I think an obvious question is,

[00:34:06] if you were Baldwin and Rosie, would you have wanted this transcript released?

[00:34:10] I wouldn't have, but if I felt no, that's actually...

[00:34:13] No, the transcript...

[00:34:15] I'm shocked that they were pushing for this, to be totally honest.

[00:34:20] I think a lot of this stuff from them,

[00:34:22] people want to read a grand strategy into it, and it's improvisational.

[00:34:28] This is being made up as it's going along.

[00:34:31] I do not know why they wanted this out there.

[00:34:36] First of all,

[00:34:38] there's a...

[00:34:40] Gull did not say as much as they did.

[00:34:44] I think the transcript doesn't really hurt her, doesn't help her.

[00:34:54] If she improperly acted when she removed them, that's going to be the finding,

[00:35:00] no matter what.

[00:35:02] This transcript doesn't really push it over the edge either way.

[00:35:04] But it makes them...

[00:35:07] First of all, they obviously knew they were getting disqualified,

[00:35:10] but they come into this seemingly totally unprepared.

[00:35:12] Rosie is just ranting.

[00:35:15] And Baldwin's interjecting with these weird things about a guy from Florida

[00:35:20] and occasionally not being able to read in between the lines.

[00:35:23] They just seem very unprepared.

[00:35:25] I'm shocked that they wanted this out there.

[00:35:27] If I were them, I would not want this out there.

[00:35:29] Because again, it doesn't hurt Gull in the way that I think...

[00:35:35] The way they carried on about some of this stuff,

[00:35:38] you would think that she was threatening them actively in this thing.

[00:35:41] And I'm not really reading that.

[00:35:43] I just think that...

[00:35:46] I'm glad it's out there.

[00:35:48] I love the transparency.

[00:35:49] So I'm a fan of it being out there.

[00:35:52] I'm just... Why did they want it out there?

[00:35:54] I don't understand that. Do you have an insight into that?

[00:35:56] I don't.

[00:35:58] Because again, if you can think that they were incompetent and negligent

[00:36:02] and also think that they shouldn't have been removed from the case,

[00:36:05] I think that's a perfectly principled stance.

[00:36:08] And I think you can also kind of say,

[00:36:12] well, this wasn't handled properly, so she should be kicked off.

[00:36:15] I think all of that is fine.

[00:36:16] But that's going to be informed by whether or not she acted properly within the law.

[00:36:22] And I don't think that this adds anything to our understanding of that.

[00:36:26] But yeah, they wanted it out there.

[00:36:30] Let's get back to it.

[00:36:32] I'm going to read some remarks Rosie makes at this point.

[00:36:36] And then Anya will read Judge Gull's response.

[00:36:40] Rosie.

[00:36:42] I mean, obviously reading the tea leaves here,

[00:36:43] what you're giving us a chance to do is bow out gracefully, if you will.

[00:36:48] If that's the right term.

[00:36:50] Is there a scenario where the court would accept if I stayed in the case?

[00:36:53] I mean, I'm not... I'm a team player.

[00:36:55] And I'm not the kind of guy that would just bail out on someone just for the sake of doing it.

[00:36:59] But I think it's obvious that, you know, he can speak differently,

[00:37:02] but I'm not as connected to some of, you know, this most recent circumstances as he is.

[00:37:08] Mr. Allen is in a situation where he's going to have counsel that's...

[00:37:11] If he has new counsel, it's going to take them a year to get up to speed with the depth of information that continues to come in.

[00:37:17] And so I think that his Sixth Amendment rights matter.

[00:37:21] You know, I'm probably the one that can at least move this thing forward with some sense of judicial economy.

[00:37:26] I don't like it and that's not what I intended to do when I came in here today.

[00:37:31] But that would be kind of a worst case scenario on our side.

[00:37:34] You know, I guess.

[00:37:36] And so is that an option the court would entertain?

[00:37:38] No.

[00:37:39] So that's interesting.

[00:37:41] Rosie is saying, can I stay on without Baldwin?

[00:37:43] I would never throw Baldwin over, but can I just throw him over quickly?

[00:37:46] Yeah.

[00:37:48] Which, I mean, honestly makes sense from his perspective.

[00:37:50] I don't not knock in that.

[00:37:53] This was not his office that did this.

[00:37:57] So yeah.

[00:38:00] Some of the revelations of what's going on between these two attorneys is interesting.

[00:38:05] Although frankly they may have discussed that ahead of time like Baldwin may have said,

[00:38:09] Rosie, if you can stay on, you should try it.

[00:38:11] You know, so it's possible that that was something that Baldwin was supportive of and was in on.

[00:38:19] At some point Rosie and Baldwin leave.

[00:38:22] They presumably discussed this amongst themselves and they also meet with Richard Allen and he conveys them according to them that he wants them to stay on the case.

[00:38:31] That isn't that's not persuasive to Judge Gull though.

[00:38:36] No.

[00:38:38] And Judge Gull indicates that it does not persuasive.

[00:38:41] And Rosie makes some remarks, which I'm going to read.

[00:38:45] I'm a lawyer who practices in lots of courtrooms and I've been through some disqualification actions.

[00:38:50] I've in 20 years I've never had a disciplinary complaint in my life has been confirmed if you will.

[00:38:56] But I've seen lawyers disqualified and there was a process for that and it's not this with all due respect.

[00:39:03] Will you walk into someone's office?

[00:39:05] A judge's office and they read a prepared statement to you.

[00:39:07] And essentially that statement is an indictment on my professional, you know, activities.

[00:39:12] And then your handed a, you know, essentially a sheet of paper with two, you know, with two options.

[00:39:17] And one of them is I'm going to go out here and shame you or you can quit.

[00:39:21] I just you can understand how upset that would make any lawyer.

[00:39:25] I just think it's I don't think it's the right way to handle this from a due process standpoint.

[00:39:30] So I have no choice but to, you know, withdraw my appearance because I'm not going to go in there and take a public shaming without having to do anything.

[00:39:37] I'm not having any notice of it.

[00:39:39] I just, you know, that's where I am with it.

[00:39:42] Then why don't you, Anja, read what Andy Baldwin says at that point.

[00:39:46] He says I'm the same withdrawing.

[00:39:49] I mirror what he said.

[00:39:51] I mean, I do appreciate you giving us the advance notice.

[00:39:53] If there is some appreciation for that, I do appreciate that.

[00:39:56] But beyond that, I wanted to take this, you know, I wanted to take this and finish it out.

[00:40:01] I'm stunned.

[00:40:03] I don't know what to say.

[00:40:05] So I'll just say that I'm moving to withdraw orally.

[00:40:07] Both indicate their withdrawing and Andy Baldwin even goes to the extent of thanking the judge for giving them advance notice of all this.

[00:40:15] I almost wondered was that meant sarcastically, but I don't I don't know that would be kind of a weird aside there.

[00:40:22] Anyways, so we do see them withdrawing and obviously now they're arguing that that was essentially a lie that they didn't mean it.

[00:40:38] So that's interesting.

[00:40:40] And then there's a point where they discuss Richard Allen.

[00:40:44] Should he be present for any of this?

[00:40:46] And Judge Gull says, well, I trust that you've talked with him about this.

[00:40:50] I know you wouldn't lie to me about that.

[00:40:53] And she indicates that's good enough for her.

[00:40:57] She does not want.

[00:40:59] She says, uh, so of course that's your representation.

[00:41:04] That's what he would say if he were brought in here.

[00:41:06] I can't imagine the DOC being comfortable bringing him into my office.

[00:41:10] I would not be comfortable having him in my office.

[00:41:13] You could see that as her seeing his presence as being a safety issue for others, for himself, or that he might say something problematic that could really undermine his rights.

[00:41:24] So you can look at that from a couple of different lenses, I think.

[00:41:27] But it certainly raises, I think when we're, I mean, we've said that we felt that he should be there for this.

[00:41:33] I frankly feel like I still feel like all of this should have been public.

[00:41:37] There should have just been a hearing, you know, I don't think they should have been given the opportunity to withdraw.

[00:41:43] Yeah. If there was a hearing, there would have been no doubt because Richard Allen could have been present for the year.

[00:41:48] He would have been there. You know, he has a right to hear this.

[00:41:51] So I don't feel like I still don't feel like a lot of this was handled properly.

[00:41:57] But that being said, I can understand perhaps why there would be logistical issues to bringing him into Judge's chambers.

[00:42:05] So that's a little bit more nuanced.

[00:42:08] I'm still shocked that they wanted this out there.

[00:42:13] I don't know.

[00:42:15] We're always looking into everything as like a grand strategy.

[00:42:19] Everything's got, oh, they've been five D chess and it never is.

[00:42:24] It just never ever seems it's never five G chest.

[00:42:28] It's just random actions before we go.

[00:42:33] I want to highlight a single point from one of Rosie's earlier.

[00:42:38] I recall them like many speeches because I think it's interesting.

[00:42:45] We sort of saw this sentiment echoed in some of his filings, but I think it is important to note about how he feels about this important matter regarding the leak.

[00:42:53] So he's characterizing not just the leak situation that got the defense kicked off, but he's also talking about Robert McDonald and other leaks that he's not even really mentioning.

[00:43:06] But just he's giving the impression that there's been so many leaks who, you know, why is this one such a big deal?

[00:43:11] He says, I mean, I saw the pictures.

[00:43:14] I know where those came from.

[00:43:16] And if you know the point here is, is I'm going to say this maybe a little loosely, but forgive me.

[00:43:20] I don't care.

[00:43:22] I don't care that all this stuff is out there because it's been out there for five or six years.

[00:43:27] I don't have time.

[00:43:29] He doesn't have time.

[00:43:31] He doesn't have time to sit and try to marshal all of this stuff while this case is ongoing because there's no end to it.

[00:43:36] And what's interesting about that is it was actually their duty under the protective order to try to marshal all this stuff while the case is ongoing.

[00:43:44] Oh, but it's not important to him.

[00:43:45] And he seems to indicate that that's not a duty he takes seriously.

[00:43:50] No.

[00:43:52] So that's interesting.

[00:43:54] That is interesting.

[00:43:56] And it's interesting that in the six years that this case was being investigated before it was a judicial matter that photos of graphic photos of the crime scene did not leak out.

[00:44:07] And how long did these guys have this case?

[00:44:11] So it's a little bit disheartening because I don't really feel like there's a lot of ownership in this situation.

[00:44:19] It's a lot of pointing fingers and saying, well, Barbara McDonald's a reporter.

[00:44:24] So obviously they're just as bad as we are.

[00:44:27] And that's concerning to me.

[00:44:29] I would have expected maybe this is stupid, but the fact that they wanted this transcript out there, I really thought that there would be something where they were kind of coming completely.

[00:44:40] And what would happen? Here's what we did. Here's what we're going to do in the future.

[00:44:44] And there would be a real like come to Jesus moment that they would want out there for the public to see and say, hey, maybe these guys should come back.

[00:44:51] Maybe this was a mistake and they seem to recognize that and they seem to want to fix it.

[00:45:00] But yeah.

[00:45:03] I just think it's a little bit callous in the situation that led to a suicide and also photos of a crime scene involving two children leaking out to the Internet, which of course is not how court works.

[00:45:17] I mean a trial people say, well, they're going to come out anyway. Yeah, but they're not going to be posted on like Reddit.

[00:45:23] That's not how it works.

[00:45:25] The jury has to see them.

[00:45:27] They don't need to be out there on the dark web waiting to be sold to somebody.

[00:45:33] That's not how this works and minimizing it doesn't make the situation any better.

[00:45:42] So obviously we're going to continue following this and thank you for listening.

[00:45:47] Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet.

[00:45:50] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murder sheet at gmail.com.

[00:45:59] If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:46:08] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com.

[00:46:17] If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com.

[00:46:28] We very much appreciate any support.

[00:46:31] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:46:40] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion Group on Facebook.

[00:46:49] We mostly focus our time on research and reporting so we're not on social media much.

[00:46:55] We do try to check our email account but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:47:02] Thanks again for listening.