The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Two: Steve Mullin and the Searchers

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So today is Saturday, October 19th, 2024.

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And we just went to the second day of the trial of Richard Allen.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: This is, of course, the Delphi resident accused of murdering Delphi teenagers, Abigail Williams and Liberty German, back in 2017.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: He is on trial. He is charged with four counts of murder, two counts for each victim.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And today is once again the state presenting its case.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_00]: The state presents first.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: They will have, you know, this time to bring forward their witnesses and make a case against Richard Allen.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the defense will come in and be able to offer a response and try to raise reasonable doubt.

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Delphi Murders.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen on trial.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Day two.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Steve Mullin and the Searchers.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So in case you're wondering, why am I seeing an episode in my feed?

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a Saturday.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: This in this trial.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm wondering that.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_00]: In this trial, everything's a little bit different.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And Judge Gull, Judge Francis Gull, who of course is presiding over Richard Allen's case, has ordered it that like Saturdays open for trial.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's we're possibly going to be reporting to you on Saturdays as well.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And these are half days.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: But they that they will be there will be court in session unless I'm assuming otherwise announced on Saturdays.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, this thing is going on until I think mid November.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So that is something to keep in mind.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And so the jurors came in.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're wondering, the jurors will have like a day for family time, I think, calling their families on Sunday.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk quickly about a couple of things that happened before the jury came in this morning, because I think I think they're interesting.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: We've gotten, for one thing, a couple of comments from people who may who seem to have misunderstood something we mentioned yesterday.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Bob Mata does not have a press pass.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: He is sitting with the defense.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: The defense gets a certain number of seats.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: They gave one to Bob Mata because they see him as part of their team, perhaps with justification, since as we've alluded to, he is a shill.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was not there today, but his wife was there and she was sitting in the defense row near the Allen family.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And to my mind, there was a bit of an awkward moment there at the beginning of the trial day concerning her.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So she and of course, her name is Ali Mata.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: She is sitting in the row with family and there is a family member who has not been there before.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And she is sitting between Janice Allen, Richard Allen's mother and Kathy Allen, who of course is Richard Allen's wife.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think some people said that they believe this was Richard Allen's sister.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_01]: There's certainly a family resemblance there.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And so Andy Baldwin comes over to talk with them and he can be a very charming man.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And let me give you a little secret here.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: One trick to be charming is to make the person you are talking to feel like they are the only person in the room.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And he seems to turn this on, this quality on when he's speaking to this woman who hasn't been there before, who may be Richard Allen's sister.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: He is saying, oh, who is this young thing?

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like staring out.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: He's really focusing on her.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: She seems to be responding to that.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And at that moment, Ali Mata comes over and kind of awkwardly interrupts the moment by sticking her hand in to introduce herself.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It seemed a little awkward and a little cringe to me, but then she went and sat down.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: From where I was, I could hear a couple of the things that Andy Baldwin was saying to this woman who may be Richard Allen's sister.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: For me, the most important one, the most interesting one certainly was at one point he said, and this is Andy Baldwin.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: He said, he's as good as I've seen him since the first day.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you hear that?

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I did hear that.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And I assume he was talking about Richard Allen.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I assume that it's in my notes, too.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, we don't have the wider context of that statement, but I believe he was talking about it would make sense if he was talking about Richard Allen.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think his assessment is one that we share, because I think ever since the jury has really come on board, he's tamped down some of the behaviors that we were concerned about in terms of alienating jurors.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Which is I'm talking about the staring and the glowering and sort of the.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Fidgeting and that makes sense, because when you have something as important as a murder trial, you're hopefully going to have attorneys who are going to tell you, here's what you don't do.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_00]: You got to relax.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You got to try your best to keep relaxed and don't engage in any of the behaviors that people might find off putting and maybe prejudge you unfairly, because I'll tell you this to me.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Body language doesn't matter. I mean, I know I like to listen in life. It matters. Right.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00]: If someone if someone's really giving you the creeps, then you should listen to your instinct.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But when it comes to things like this, we can't imagine the stress of actually being accused of a murder and going to trial.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So if someone's really stressed out, maybe they do things that you find creepy and maybe they're not guilty or maybe they don't care and they're really calm and having a good time and they are guilty.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you just don't know. There's too many variations in terms of neurodiversity and people's experiences and personalities that I feel like you want your client probably to be acting as a baseline, though, just because people are humans and they might see the sort of bug eyed stares that we'd experienced and feel creeped out.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't want the jury to go through that. You don't want your client to have a problem with that. So you're going to say, camp it down.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure a lot of us have had the experience in life where we may have some anxiety about something.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But then when it's game day, when it's time to perform, suddenly you find reserves you didn't know you had.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's entirely possible that Richard Allen is finding something within himself to take the advice of his attorneys and try to modify his behavior.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So it is not so off-putting as it has been in many, if not most of his pretrial.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Like staring at the victim's families. Not a great idea if the jury is seeing that. We saw that. We saw him doing that. But you don't want that at trial because it's just giving a bad impression, I guess.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And these decisions should be based on the evidence and what the case is presented on both sides. It should not be based on vibes.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll just say this, too. He's also kind of one thing is you don't see him quite as much because in some courtroom setups, he's sort of so you're seeing him in profile.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So you see more of his reactions to everything from where I'm sitting now.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have as good of a clear view of his face. And I will also add his families here.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And we've been seeing kind of him seeking them out. That's been happening more.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So I imagine that being in street clothes where he's wearing sort of these sort of pastel colored button downs and and, you know, look at looking normal in terms of his dress, not wearing any more prisoner jail garb where he's not shackled.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure I'm sure that stuff also is an improvement to your mood where you feel more yourself.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's it's more of a you know, I'm not surprised to see his behavior change, I guess.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Should we talk about the first witness of the day?

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. So the first witness was someone who's kind of like served a number.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, two important roles in the case.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is, of course, Steve Mullen.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And he in 2017 was the police chief of Delphi, Indiana.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: He talked about how he's been a law enforcement officer since 1983.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was the chief then.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And now he serves in a different role.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's also still involved with the investigation.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he works as an investigator for prosecutor Nick McClellan.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: At one point, he's going through the various responsibilities of his current positions.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And he mentioned that he is the tech guy for the office, which was kind of interesting because a few minutes later, Nick McClellan was talking about how, you know, some of the tech things I tried to do yesterday really didn't work.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Whoops.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, I guess there's always glitches.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But he was, you know, also at one point he sort of, McClellan was struggling with something.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was like, can I come, like, he was like, let me go down.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of a funny moment where like.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: What happened was McClellan is standing by this large screen TV.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it looks like a large screen TV.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if that's a proper term for it.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a touch screen too.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And Mullen is, there's one point during Mullen's testimony and he is standing like maybe 10 feet away and he whispers something to the judge and the judge says something to the effect of your witness thinks he needs to be over there to help you.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And McClellan said, I think he needs to be over here.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So then he went over there and helped him.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And the problem was fixed.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And the problem that time was fixed.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So it was all good.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So one thing that McClellan sort of indicated in Mullen through his responses is also that Mullen is the guy who's really in charge of the evidence for the prosecution.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: He's the guy who, and he's kind of indicated this in previous hearings.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: McClellan has that he's kind of the evidence guy, the tech guy.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what he's kind of, that's the role he serves now.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, in the beginning, he was this sort of, you know, in this position of leadership where he was helping field some of the logistical things with the early searches.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: He was giving his phone number out to searchers, like call me, like if you find anything.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00]: He was, you know, on dispatch.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_00]: He was getting involved and sort of helping lead some of that.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he talks, he talked about that.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But I also found it interesting.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't mean to be overly dramatic with my language here.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh-oh, what are you going to say?

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I think those of us who are of a certain age kind of like look on things, at least in certain elements, we look at like we had a pre-9-11 world and a post-9-11 world.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes we get glimpses of like what life was like on September 10th or what life was like on September 11th before we found out that the planes hit and everything changed.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And so to me, in some way, some of the stories we've been hearing in court over the last few days have reminded me of that.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Because we have people coming on the stand and telling us, giving us a glimpse of what their life was like.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Just a day-to-day life in Delphi, Indiana, what it was like.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And then saying what happens and here's when I got the news and everything changed.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And so Mullen was talking about his duties.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, he supervised officers, things of that nature.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: He would work, go into work, I think 7, 7.30 in the morning, stay until 5 or 5.30.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And so on February 13th, 2017, his shift ends.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: He goes home, still has his radio on.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And he hears, and by radio I don't mean like music.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It's his police radio.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And he hears some radio traffic about missing, two girls going missing.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he started getting a couple of calls about the girls from people he just described as citizens who are obviously very concerned.

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[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And so he goes out to dispatch and starts to work to try to help to find the girls, like immediately.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he didn't participate in any searches.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00]: He was not on the ground.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_00]: He seemed to be more of operating in an organizational factor.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And it also came out at one point that Carroll County Sheriff's Office was more in the driver's seat, it sounded like, with the searches.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But he's, again, he's the police chief of the city of Delphi.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Delphi is where the girls are from.

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Delphi is where the girls have gone missing.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So he's obviously helping out.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And he's finding things to do.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: He mentioned one thing he did very early on is he starts calling school officials.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And he's doing this because he wants to talk to, like, teachers or counselors who might know the girls.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And the idea of this was they might give him the names of friends of the girls that he could reach out to.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe friends would have some sort of ideas or insights of where the girls might have gone.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Because obviously this was not the case here.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But oftentimes if a teenager goes missing, it's because they run off with a romantic partner.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not even sure that's what he was thinking.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think – I think there were – basically they didn't – there was a lot of concern and a lot of action.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think there were different categories.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Based on our own conversations with sort of people in Delphi, a lot of people thought that this could have been some kind of accident.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: That also came up.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_00]: An accident where one of the girls is hurt or maybe the girls are killed.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's like an accident.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Another thing was maybe there was some sort of miscommunication with the families and the girls had kind of wandered off to, like, walk somewhere else.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't think they were concerned about them running off with romantic partners.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It was more like they were maybe on a walk.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you could see something like, oh, I texted my mom so she knows.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But the text didn't go through because the signal was bad.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So, like, you could see instances where maybe teenagers are a little bit careless, even ones who are very smart and very respectful, as we know Libby and Abby were.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a situation where teenagers sometimes make mistakes.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Heck, I sometimes make mistakes.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You and I have miscommunications where, like, I think I texted you where I'm going.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, like, there's different things that can happen.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So the point is that people were very concerned.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But there wasn't this rush to, oh, my gosh, they've been murdered.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: He specifically said he did not think that anything nefarious had happened.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: For them, the worst case scenario was the girls had been injured.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Or killed in some sort of accident.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I think some people early on, based on his testimony, may have felt that the girls were on the Monon High Bridge, fell off, got, you know, got killed or injured in the water and went downstream from there.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: He indicated that he was there working, helping with the search until about 2 a.m.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said that when he left, his impression was that the girls would return home, presumably safely.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: When he goes back in at 730 and the girls are still missing, he is very concerned.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And they have a community meeting.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe it was at a fire station.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: People come in to volunteer to search.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you mentioned this a few moments ago.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: He's giving these people his phone number so they can keep in touch.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: He's giving them maps.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And at this point in the testimony, he started talking about specific areas that were being searched.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And Baldwin objected because he said, well, you weren't there.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You were directing it from another location.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So you really aren't in a position to say what areas exactly were being searched.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And McClellan agreed to move on.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's those are objections where, you know, you're going to have the attorney sort of interjecting once in a while to basically say that's, you know, he can't do that.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And in this case, McClellan sort of seemingly agreed and said, you know, we're going to go on from here.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And then sometime on the afternoon of the 14th, he receives a call from Pat Brown, who was one of the volunteers searchers, a citizen of Delphi.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk more about him a little bit later in the program.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And Pat Brown tells Mullen that he had found two bodies.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And he describes where the location of the bodies was.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And he talks about around 2 p.m. that day.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: He I think it was Indiana State Police.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Kim Riley.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Kim Riley.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And a chaplain met with members of the victim's family at the fire station.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's when they broke the terrible news saying we found two bodies and we are working on identification.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And to be clear, I think the family members were aware that something really bad was going on prior to this.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_00]: But this is like an official meeting with authorities where they're saying, you know, where the worst seems to have happened and we're working to identify these bodies.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_00]: But I get the sense that like immediately after the discovery, Melissa, who is Becky Patty's sister, kind of was able to then get in touch with Becky and communicate to her that.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Becky Patty, of course, is the grandmother of Liberty German, one of the victims in the case.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So it had already gotten around.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It was already very bad news.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But that was the meaning that they had.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But even in the wake of this tragedy, obviously, investigation goes on.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: A man named Tom Mears called Mullen and he mentioned that the camera at the Hoosier Harvest store.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Or I guess he mentioned there was a camera at the Hoosier Harvest store, a security camera that also would pick up some of the traffic on the street.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And so because of this, Mullen went to the Hoosier Harvest store and he viewed all of the footage that covered the daylight hours, which he basically said was roughly 8 a.m. to 6 p.m.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And as he was doing that, he used his cell phone to take pictures of any cars that pass by on the video.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And that effort took him, he estimated, 45 minutes to an hour.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And this was at 7 p.m. that he got that call.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, he took pictures and I think then they also took the video as a whole.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_01]: They also took the video.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say this about the video.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's interesting.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_00]: There's been a lot of – ever since the probable cause of a David for Richard Allen's arrest dropped, there's been all sorts of discussion about like – it really sounds like there's a lot of disparity around the cars in this case.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you have some people saying it's this kind of car and that kind of car.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And to me, I'm very curious to see this video.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll be curious if it's really blurry in their kind of approximations, then it's probably kind of a – not super helpful either way.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_00]: If it shows a car that they are saying is Richard Allen's car that looks really different from Richard Allen's car, I think that's going to be a huge problem for the prosecution, to be honest.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And if it shows a car that looks very much like his car, I think that negates any witness testimony that might be saying, well, no, I thought it was this kind of car because I think a video is much more reliable than an eyewitness.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: A video is much more reliable than an eyewitness.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Another thing you'd have to take into consideration in my mind would be how much does this eyewitness know about cars?

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: If it was like a car expert or someone who was really keeping up on cars, maybe I might rely on their description of the car a bit more.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: If you asked me to describe a car I saw, boy, would you be out of luck.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd be lucky if I remembered the color of the car.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd have a difficult time describing the shape and I wouldn't be able to identify a make or model at all.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_00]: In other words, you'd be a terrible eyewitness.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I would.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm just saying like to kind of preview that a bit, we don't know what's going to be on – like I don't know.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it could be one of those things that could be a big deal for either side or if it's just really blurry, then maybe it's just kind of like, okay, whatever.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the testimony kind of jumped ahead to events that occurred in 2024.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: They talked about – we mentioned on the program release yesterday that Kelsey stood there as they played video showing essentially Libby and Abby's last walk and the route they took.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: They revealed that that video was taken by a drone and that it was taken on February 13, 2024.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously they picked that date so that the foliage and things of that nature would most resemble what it looked like on the day of the murder.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, they acknowledged that there have been a number of changes to the area since then.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. There's been a lot of sort of improvements made to the trail.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: There's actually – the beginning of the bridge is now all built up so you can safely walk on it.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So it looks totally different, although the latter portion of the bridge remains its old terrifying rickety self.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's just like different kiosks added.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Things have been paved that perhaps were once gravel.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So it looks different, but the approximate general idea is the same.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. But of course, lawyers have to be super specific.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. You don't want to give the jury the wrong impression that like, oh, this is how it's always looked.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: You have to be really like, no, here's what's – and Mullen was very detailed as he went through.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: This is different. This is different. This is different.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Then they also showed drone footage, which we didn't see yesterday.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: This was drone footage showing how the walk to the end of Mullen High Bridge would look if you started at the Freedom Bridge.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: The Freedom Bridge, that's probably – if you visit Delphi, the odds are you'd probably start your walk at the Freedom Bridge.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: When we've gone on the trail, that's where we've started.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So this looked very familiar to me.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a nine-minute video, and as they showed it, they sometimes would stop for a minute or allow Mullen to describe what they were seeing or what was different than compared to now.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And pointing out things like here's the mirrors entrance where the girls entered the trail.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not really, I think, open to anyone anymore.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But back then, people who were locals might kind of go there.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a very small, almost driveway-esque thing.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe two cars could fit there, but that is where Kelsey German or Kelsey Seabird now dropped off her sister and Abby so they could go walk on the trails.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And so Mullen, as we're passing that, as we're going through this drone footage, he's pointing out, okay, this is mirrors.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So he's giving the jury sort of the complete overview of this landscape.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01]: He mentioned that, at least back in 2017, the people most likely to cross the bridge were teenagers and younger people as opposed to adults.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01]: He also pointed out the location of what he referred to as Weber's Drive.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes this is referred to as an access road.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It is at the end of the bridge and it goes underneath the bridge up to the Weber property.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And my understanding is that the defense plans to contend that there was a vehicle waiting on this road after the girls were kidnapped.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And it transported them to another location.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And the defense is putting that theory forward because if they were killed later, then presumably Rich Allen would have an alibi.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And presumably he does not have an alibi if he was killed, if the girls were killed at 2.30 or 3, which is what all the evidence so far has suggested.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But in fairness, we haven't seen the defense's evidence.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is a – I know there was – I know one thing that came up was like he was asked how many platforms were on the bridge.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And he said I think four.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think then other people afterwards – I forget who, and I apologize – said to me that they were actually sick.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't – you know, I think little mistakes like that are unfortunate.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But I also don't really know if they change much about the general testimony here.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that fair to say?

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And also it's fair to say that everybody makes little mistakes.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: That's true.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know –

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It was time for Baldwin's cross-examination.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so Baldwin handled cross-examination here.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_01]: At one point he said – oh, so you said the search was called off at 2 a.m.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_01]: This is Baldwin.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: He said 2 a.m.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's before 4.33 a.m., isn't it?

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, this is because they are going to contend that, of course, Libby's phone received some text messages at 4.33 a.m.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And their theory seems to be that this phone, which was discovered under the body of one of the girls, was turned on, I guess, just prior to the homicides, which they are going to argue took place at 4.33.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_01]: At the location where the girls were found.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Around that time, yeah.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And that, I guess, there was no search being done then.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So it would presumably be safe for the killers to return the girls to the exact spot where they had supposedly taken them some 12 hours earlier.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, they've not presented any evidence for it, and I'm not aware of any evidence that would support that theory.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But again, they haven't presented their case yet.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So Baldwin also wanted to know about dogs being brought in to the cemetery and to help with the search, right?

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's always been something that's been talked about a lot.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_00]: There were supposed to be dogs.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that was called off.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And Mullen indicated he didn't know much about that situation.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And, I mean, I imagine that that was mostly a Carroll County Sheriff's Office situation.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, Baldwin thanked him for pointing out that a lot had changed about the bridge.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think Mullen specified also, like, fewer people go on it today, so there's more overgrowth.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So Baldwin took that to say, like, so there would have been better visibility back in the day.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And he said yes.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And he also asked, you know, wouldn't it be more representative for the crime scene to look at videos taken in, like, 2017?

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And Mullen said yes.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: That's one thing when you're, you know, when you're being questioned on the stand, you don't want to be argumentative even if you're on the opposite side.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, Mullen is working with the prosecution.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the side he's on.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But it would be ridiculous for him to say to Andy Baldwin, well, these ones are just as good.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, like, you just don't argue.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that a fair thing to say?

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a fair thing to say.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you just go with the truth.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And there was no redirect from McClellan.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: At this point, just some observations on Alan today.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00]: We've talked a lot about how he's always wearing these glasses on his head.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Today I saw him use the glasses actually a number of times, and he seems to be using them when he's writing notes.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So when I'm seeing him, he's sort of scribbling, it looks like, and his glasses are on.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So this was the first time I saw him wear them.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I saw it, like, twice or three times perhaps during this.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And at this point, in between things, Alan turned.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We've talked about he's really done a lot less staring.

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I saw this moment.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: He turned and stared intently toward what looked like Bob Siegel, one of the reporters, but may have actually been trying to get the attention of his family and sort of just kind of I'm seeing it from an angle.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's kind of leaning.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Bob Siegel, the reporter, was in the row in front of the families.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the media sits up front.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_00]: The credentialed press, they have the first rows.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And then behind them are sort of the families on one side, the families of the victims on one side, and the seats for the defense, which includes Richard Allen's family.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And then behind them, members of the public.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's one thing that's kind of interesting in Indiana.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Not all jurisdictions do this, but jurors get the opportunity to ask questions if they want to.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And the process is, at the end of the questioning, they're signaled to the bailiff.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_01]: They write down a question, give it to the bailiff.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the attorneys and the judge go and confer.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And if everyone agrees, the question is asked.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And some of these questions could be interesting.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But for me, the most interesting thing about juror questions is during the trial, obviously, we have no idea what the jury is thinking.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But these questions, when you get questions from the jury, you kind of get an idea or these are the issues that are important to at least some jurors.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And also through these questions, you can get an idea of, well, this is a complicated case.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Are these guys even paying attention?

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So through the questions they ask, for me, the questions are more interesting often than the answers.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I completely agree.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It really puts you in the mindset of the jurors.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And as you said, it shows the level of engagement.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It shows maybe which ones they have, like they're confused by or which ones they really want to know even more information about.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's a great rule personally.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And you have the attorneys there to safeguard and make sure there are no inappropriate questions asked that could be problematic for the trial and the fairness.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's great.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_01]: The first question, and this is one that Anya actually answered earlier.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But keep in mind, at the time this question was asked, Mullen hadn't answered it.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was...

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought he had alluded to it earlier, but...

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Did he?

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought he did.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But I...

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I wrote that in my notes, but I could be wrong.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And it might be something where I'm just letting my own experience talking with people in Delphi conflate with this.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So keep that in mind.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But the question was basically, you kept on describing how the search for the girls were all done downstream from the bridge.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Why was that?

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Why didn't you look in both directions, I guess?

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And Mullen said the reason was that there was the possibility that the girls had actually fallen off the bridge and the water had brought them downstream.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It also sounds like there definitely was a lot of...

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, one thing to remember, when we're looking on the map, and again, we looked at a map a lot.

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_00]: We looked at all these posters and maps and whatnot.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We looked at the touchscreen maps.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_00]: The maps are flat, but the terrain is not flat.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_00]: If you've been there, there's a lot of bluffs and kind of like steep drop-offs.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I think that's also...

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_00]: When we talk about searches, it's not like they're just searching across a flat forest.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot more complicated than that.

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the juror wanted to have some clarity on where exactly the bodies were found.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And after some back and forth, Mullen ended up specifying a spot on the map.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_00]: The juror seemed to think that there was something that they referred to as a creek reservoir, like where the bodies found along Deer Creek or a creek reservoir near, I believe, the cemetery perhaps.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And Mullen was confused, like I didn't really know about a creek reservoir, but that, you know, they were definitely found close to the creek on dry land.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_00]: The bodies were not in the water.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_00]: They were found on dry land, but it was very close to the edge.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there was some back and forth with the attorneys and such.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Baldwin said the girls were found in an area that was flat.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was curious, would you be able to see the spot where they were found from the Weber residence?

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the reason he wanted that to be established is that their theory is that the bodies, again, were not there the night before.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And so if a person was there the night before and did not see them, that would therefore prove their theory that the bodies were moved.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And basically, Mullen ended up saying that shortly after the murders, he was out on the property, the Weber property.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And when he visited there, he was not able to see the spot where the girls were found.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And also keep in mind that by the time the officer visited the Weber property on the day the girls went missing, it was already quite dark.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So another juror, is this where they asked about the drone pace?

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Another juror asked, like, is the drone footage, is that accurately reflecting the walking pace of a person?

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Mullen talked about how everyone has the different walking speed.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're a young teenager, you're going to walk probably faster than an older person.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And he also noted that we saw this video sped up 2x times 2, right?

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So that it was faster, was my interpretation.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It was faster than what we typically expect from real life.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And then nine minutes got thrown around a lot.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I was a little confused about this part, I'm not going to lie.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, the video that we were shown lasted nine minutes.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so people were like, would it take nine minutes to go from Freedom Bridge to the Monon High Bridge?

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was...

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: The video was shown at, like, double speed.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It was shown at double speed.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I think he said the actual footage was 20 minutes.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Shown at double speed, which ended up coming around to about nine minutes.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So in other words, no, the video as shown did not reflect the walking speed.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It was about twice as fast.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so, yeah.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, the next witness.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So the next witness was a man named Jake Johns.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Jake Johns.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_00]: He is a lifelong Delphi resident.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was one of the people who volunteered to participate in the searches for him.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's mention that he actually had a connection to the family.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, he did, yeah.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Because his wife, Jennifer, actually worked at Becky Paddy's real estate appraisal company.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So he knew the family quite well.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, and once again, uh, you know, all these witnesses, many of these witnesses were

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: reminded to speak up.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and that's, again, it's not really for the gallery.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It's more for the jury and the other parties.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_00]: They want everyone to be able to hear it.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_00]: The microphone that's set up, it just so you guys, it's just so everyone knows, the microphone

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that's set up in on the stand is actually for the court reporter.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not to boom the voice around the room like a typical microphone, but they do,

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_00]: they do consistently ask people to speak up, but sometimes the acoustics are pretty weird

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_00]: in the room.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So Mr. John goes to his own place.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_00]: John's plural.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_00]: John's.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Mr. John's goes to his own place of employment on the morning of February 14th.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, the girls went missing late in the afternoon of the fourth of the 13th.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_01]: He goes to work the next day, right?

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And early and his boss said, uh, if you guys want, you can, uh, take the day off and go help

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_01]: with the search.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So that also indicates to me that something, uh, nice about the Delphi community.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00]: People were coming together, coming together to help their neighbors.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I think it's, it's very nice and it says something very good about the community.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So Mr.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_01]: John's and a coworker go down and they begin to search.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_01]: They arrive, uh, they're taken, they drive to Riley Park.

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_01]: They go down to the riverbed and start walking very slowly towards the high bridge.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, they're about 10 feet apart.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, they're just carefully looking around for what they can find.

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And apparently Mr.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_01]: John's was told that, uh, one thing he could be looking for was the tie dyed shirt that I

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_01]: believe Libby was wearing.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_00]: That was orange, blue, pink, yellow, bright colors that are going to stand out against a

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_00]: wintry February forest in Indiana.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's, that was a very clever, uh, thing to look for.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And so after about four hours, they, uh, reach the high bridge and they go underneath

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_01]: the high bridge and then they, uh, see the tie dyed shirt.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of, uh, in Mr.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_01]: John's words, he said it was, it was hung upon some bricks in the water.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Some reeds.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Some reeds in the water.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Not bricks.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It was hung upon some reeds in the water.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, it stood out because of the bright colors.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking at my notes again.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Hung upon roots in the water.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So roots would make the most sense.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Out of all of that.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So apologies.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_00]: We're, we're very tired.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_01]: We're very, very tired.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So he told, uh, a fireman and they tried to contact some other people, but they couldn't

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01]: get a cell phone signal.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, and so the fireman approached the shirt and, uh, as all that was going on, he saw

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that Kelsey and some other people were in the area and it was also indicated around this

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: time they found some black Nike shoes.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And they also indicated that like at one point, the man he was with, Shane Haywood,

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00]: was tried to cross the Creek, but they were wearing low, low boots and they were concerned.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they didn't want to, I guess, get all wet.

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Pat Brown, another citizen, they see him coming from the other side and he says,

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_01]: we have found the bodies and he sounds quite alarmed.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Should we talk about the cross?

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about the cross.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Cross was done by Jennifer OJ, a member of the defense team.

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And he, she was able to, uh, get the information that when, uh, earlier when Mr. Johns was on

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_01]: the access road or the Weber drive or whatever you want to call it, he could apparently see

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_01]: some, uh, shoe prints and also some, uh, rocks seem to have been, uh, dislodged indicating

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that perhaps, uh, someone had slid down.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And he said that, uh, and this was from apparently it's something he, she said, he said in a 2019

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: interview with Rich Davies, I believe maybe a law enforcement official.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, and, and so what he, what he said was that he didn't see any shoe prints, but the

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_00]: guy he was with may have.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that may have been it.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I mean, like she said, you said this, but then he kind of clarified that how you

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_00]: interpreted it.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_00]: That was my, what I understood that to mean.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, and yeah.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, and they talked about how, um, uh, she also asked him, you know, that he said it was

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00]: weird that there was only one fireman out there, but I imagine there's a lot of people far

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_00]: flung.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I mean, I don't know.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, then there was a redirect from Stacey Diener.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, she, I guess just kind of asked like, uh, could, um, like what could they see?

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_00]: What could they hear?

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Trying to kind of get more clarity about that.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the defense wants it to be that like, you can see and hear a lot because then it's

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_00]: like, well, how could they have missed it?

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the prosecution wants it.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's harder to see and hear a lot.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Who was the next witness?

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_01]: There were no juror questions.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_01]: At least there's none of my notes.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, the next witness, um, was, um, Pat Brown.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is Patrick Brown, another lifelong Delphi resident.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, he is a, he was also a searcher.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And so he talked about himself.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, he doesn't live, you know, he lives in this area and he knows Liberty German's family.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_00]: He knew, uh, Mike Patty, Liberty's grandfather since high school.

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_01]: One sad note for me was that he has a daughter who is the same age as Kelsey.

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I know.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I mean, okay, these are real people, you know, this is a real town.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_00]: People know each other.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, talked a little bit about his day of February 13th.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there was a lot about like his wife was selling her car.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So he got the oil change.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00]: He's sort of rushing around trying to deal with that going to Monticello, uh, which is not,

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_00]: not too far away.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It's in White County.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And then their lives change.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And then their lives change forever.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So, uh, he heard from his wife that the two girls had gone missing.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, he knew Libby's family, did not know Abby or her family, but like many people

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_00]: in Delphi, he wanted to help and he wanted to get involved.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, he calls Mike Patty.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Mike Patty is at the police station.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Pat Brown indicates he wants to help and that, uh, their friend Tom Mears wants to help.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, they arranged to meet at the Monon High Bridge.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, they parked near the cemetery and they, uh, walk around.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing that, uh, will be of interest to a number of people I'm guessing is that during

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_01]: this time, one thing, uh, Mr. Brown did is he stopped at the house of property owner, Ron

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Logan, who, uh, for some people has been a suspect in this.

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, he didn't have any suspicions that Mr. Logan had done anything nefarious.

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_01]: He just wanted to see if Logan had happened to have seen the girls and he, Mr. Logan indicated

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that he had not.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So February 14th, uh, it was a work day again for Brown.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, one more thing quickly.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, go ahead.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_01]: He did mention, uh, Mr. Brown did mention that he saw a lot of people searching with flashlights.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_00]: February 14th, a work day for him.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_00]: He takes his daughter to school that day.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and he goes to the Stone House, which is a local restaurant, drinking coffee.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, he hears about this firehouse meeting, I guess, where everyone's kind of planning

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_00]: to do the searches.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_00]: He goes to, he goes there.

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_00]: He didn't know that Mullen was the police chief.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: He saw that he was an officer and he got his phone number to, so he could help with the

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_00]: searches.

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, you know, they, they talked about places they searched.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_00]: There was like a cave in the side of a hill somewhere that they thought maybe existed, but

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00]: it turned out and it kind of caved in and it, it wasn't possible to really access that.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, he talked about how there was, uh, at some point he left, I think to pick up his

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_00]: daughter who was not feeling well.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Takes her home and then goes back to the search.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And ends up, um, with, with, I think, uh, talking with Tom Mears.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, you know, they wanted to look, I guess.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Did he say something like Tom had gotten a call at some point from indicating that someone

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_01]: had seen something that should be looked at?

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have that in my notes, but I, I trust you.

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, at that point they, uh, went across the creek and they saw.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_01]: The, uh, bodies of the, the two girls.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they, they, they got out to that portion, right?

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_00]: They got out to that, that portion of, of where everything was.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, uh.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_01]: When they saw them, they thought they were mannequins.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_00]: They thought they were mannequins for a second.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And when, uh, Mr. Brown, uh, mentioned that detail, he started to, uh, tear up.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, uh, I just said that, uh, we found them.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_00]: He got, he got really choked up at this point.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Becky, Patty's sister, Melissa was there and she took off.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, they called, uh, the police called Mullins and Pat Brown indicated, uh, he stood there

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and he was facing away from them, presumably because, uh, the site was, uh, too disturbing.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said he never got closer than five feet to the bodies.

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, uh, none of the searchers got any closer than five feet.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, the police arrived and then, uh, he left.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And he, um, yeah.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, it, it was, it was, it was upsetting to see all these years later, it obviously lingered with him.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_01]: How could it not?

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, he knows these, he knows the victims, you know, one of the victims.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, then Andrew Baldwin did his cross-examination, uh, when Pat Brown had talked about some of his activities on the night before,

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_01]: he mentioned there were a couple of times when he'd heard things from a distance and had seen those, uh, flashlights that I mentioned.

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It was Andy Baldwin was like, oh, that means, uh, sound was good there, right?

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_01]: You could really hear things.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So again, I think that's a point they're going for.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And then, uh, rather disturbingly, uh, Andrew Baldwin asked, are there scavenger animals in that area like coyotes or buzzards?

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, Pat Brown said yes.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And at that point, uh, the prosecution objected because this was clearly outside the scope of direct examination.

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And if I were to speculate, I would imagine that, uh, that rather distasteful line of questioning was brought up because they hoped to, again, their theory is that the bodies were moved and they were brought back to this location.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01]: The phone is tossed on the ground and then the girls are killed so that one of their bodies lies on top of it.

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess they were suggesting that if the bodies had in fact been out there all night, they would have been ravaged in some fashion by wild animals.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I understood the question to mean.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't how you understood it?

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_00]: That, that, yeah.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_00]: He referenced, yeah, that's what I understood.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And Baldwin at one point kind of, kind of fumbled, but kind of recovered by answering his own question.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_00]: He, he kind of was like, you know, wait a minute.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you took your daughter to school.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Weren't the schools closed that day?

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wait, no, it's the, it's the next day.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So he, he, he kind of saved himself from that, I guess.

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there were juror questions.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And I, I think, uh, the first question was really an interesting question from the juror because I think it showed the, the level of attention these jurors are devoting to this case.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And no matter what side of the fence you fall on, uh, when it comes to the guilt or innocence of Richard Allen, I think we can all agree we'd be better served if these jurors pay close attention.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously they are, because the question was, uh, to Pat Brown, who was your phone provider in 2017?

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the reason for that is Pat Brown clearly has an easier time making calls out there than other people.

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Cause other people seem to have trouble getting reception out there, but not Pat Brown.

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, uh, the answer is Verizon and Andy Baldwin was like, well, you know, are you sure it was Verizon?

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_01]: You just think it's Verizon.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Cause you know, my wife pays my bills.

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know anything.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And Pat Brown was like, no, it was, it was Verizon.

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot of talk about AT&T in particular, some AT&T phones, including possibly Liberty Germans phones had some reception problems.

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And if in fact, uh, what happened is what the prosecution contends, which is that the girls were killed around two 30 or three.

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And the phone was not moved after that, but then, but the, it received some text messages at four 33 AM.

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_01]: That would indicate some network issue with AT&T.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not nitpicking to be a jerk.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You just accidentally, I think said phones at one point, plural phones, but she had one phone.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_01]: She had one phone.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Pardon me.

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, if you say that people, you know, some people will be like Kevin Greenlee confirmed the secret phone and we just don't have time for that right now.

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, that's.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_01]: What was the next question?

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_00]: The next question was how long before police arrived to the scene?

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And what Pat Brown indicated was that it felt like forever because there he's standing there near the murdered bodies of two children.

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I imagine it felt like an eternity, but he estimated about five minutes.

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I think there was another question after that where it was how long before police secured the scene.

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't hear the response.

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, this was a hard, the acoustics are not great.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And when I conferred with our people sitting next to us, they hadn't really heard it either.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if you heard something there.

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I did not.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that is is what happened.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And I will say I will say this.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people in the Delphi community got harassed and accused of all manner of horrible things for years over this case.

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's filled with good people who are better than the people committing that harassment because they actually showed up for their neighbors in a crisis and got things done and got organized.

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a heck of a lot more than any of these Internet, you know, naysayers who, again, I mean, I don't have a problem with anyone kind of talking about things or asking questions.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But some people took that to the extreme of like anyone who might be remotely involved with the searches in on it.

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's not fair to these people.

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just sorry that basically no good deed goes unpunished.

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like they signed up to try to help their neighbors and then it got them, I think, waves of harassment.

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think I think it's it really is a testament to Delphi.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, it's a real place, place of human beings has has many problems.

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure has many problems just like anywhere else.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But ultimately, when this crisis, when this awful tragedy happened, I feel like there was that kind of push to try to help find these girls.

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And nobody really anticipated how bad the reality was going to be.

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I will mention that is we are very, very tired.

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we wanted to get out of the courtroom as soon as it was over so we could relax and get a bit of a break.

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So as soon as court was dismissed, we we rushed out.

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we missed something, which is that at the end of every court session, people with this media pass credential get the opportunity to view exhibits for 15 minutes.

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, Ani and I don't have that credential, so we don't have that right.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Another person who doesn't have that credential or that right is Ali Mata.

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And there was an incident between her and Judge Gull, which we did not witness.

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But we have heard multiple people.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_00]: We've confirmed with multiple sources.

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and that she was admonished in some way for disregarding the clear instructions of Judge Gull, which were that only credentialed media would do that.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, here's the thing.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_00]: As you know, as you've been listening, we've had our issues with how Judge Gull has handled public access.

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, ultimately, she is the judge and we're not going to just Kevin and I are not just going to bulldoze our way into the credentialed media section, grab the media pass from from poor Bob Siegel or someone like that.

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And say, well, we want this because it's it's for us.

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't you don't just do whatever you want.

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You should at least follow the rules and then complain about it like everyone else.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. But I just wanted to mention that I have some of her rules seem arbitrary and they change on a daily basis.

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But this rule was one that has stayed consistent.

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So I wouldn't think it'd be that difficult to follow it.

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But with that said, we hope you enjoy whatever is left of your weekend.

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And if we are still conscious, we will talk to you the next time there is a Delphi trial day.

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, everyone.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_00]: We very much appreciate any support.

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_00]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

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[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for listening.

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

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[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer, where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward.

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise.

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_01]: On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been a really good friend to us.

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a really terrific show.

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We really recommend it highly.

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I think our audience will like it.

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_00]: He's been on our show a couple times.

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_00]: We've been on his show.

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a terrific guest.

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always – I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this.

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_00]: That really resonated.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_01]: She quotes him to me all the time.

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I do – I'm like, remember when Jason said this?

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_00]: That was so right.

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think – and you like us, I think you should give it a shot.

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Give it a try.

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll really enjoy it.

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And, again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_00]: There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice.

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime.

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is kind of the life-affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It's compassionate.

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It's affirming.

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_01]: People – Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We're fans of the show.

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_00]: We love it.

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Download some episodes.

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Listen.

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Very easy to find.

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.