The Delphi Murders: State's Objection to Defendant's Motion to Suppress

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[00:01:48] And warning this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls.

[00:01:52] Well, there have been two more motions filed

[00:01:56] in the Delphi murders case or more specifically

[00:02:00] the case of the state of Indiana versus Richard Allen.

[00:02:04] These finalings both come from

[00:02:08] the prosecution. One of them is a

[00:02:12] reference to one of the what seems to be

[00:02:16] the cornerstones of the state's case which is the

[00:02:20] incriminating statements or confessions made by Richard

[00:02:24] Allen. And the other motion refers to

[00:02:28] what seems to be one of the cornerstones of the defenses case which is

[00:02:32] the testimony of Todd Click. Todd Click, of course

[00:02:36] is one of the founders or one of the

[00:02:40] originators seemingly of the theory that this crime was committed by

[00:02:44] Odinus and so it would seem that he would be a crucial witness

[00:02:48] indeed for the defense in the upcoming trial

[00:02:52] which as we speak is scheduled to start in just a very

[00:02:56] few weeks. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist

[00:03:00] and I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney and this is the murder sheet.

[00:03:04] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews

[00:03:08] and deep dives into murder cases. We're the murder sheet

[00:03:12] and this is the Delphi murders. State's

[00:03:16] objection to defendants motion to suppress

[00:03:42] the state's

[00:04:04] Let's start with just that document. The state's

[00:04:08] objection to motion to suppress. There's a lot of words. Yes.

[00:04:16] I'm getting ahead of myself there. This of course refers to

[00:04:20] a week or so ago the defense files a motion saying

[00:04:24] Richard Allen has made quite a few confessions

[00:04:28] or incriminating statements while he was incarcerated. All of those

[00:04:32] should be excluded and the state

[00:04:36] has a reply to that and before we get to

[00:04:40] their reply to the legal

[00:04:44] arguments I wanted to mention that the state

[00:04:48] revealed something pretty casually in

[00:04:52] the second paragraph of this and I will read this.

[00:04:56] The state has identified and provided the names of all

[00:05:00] suicide companions which the state intends to call as witnesses for confession

[00:05:04] and relevant statements against his own interests which includes

[00:05:08] 16 correctional officers, 8

[00:05:12] inmate companions, Warden Gallapo, mental health personnel

[00:05:16] and Indiana State police officers in quote. So the way

[00:05:20] I read this is that apparently Richard Allen

[00:05:24] has made confessions or incriminating statements

[00:05:28] to I'm guessing at least 30 people

[00:05:32] because you have the 16 correctional officers, 8 companions

[00:05:36] that's 24, you have the Warden and then you have an unknown number

[00:05:40] of mental health personnel Indiana State police officers and of course we know

[00:05:44] he's made statements characterizes confessions to his

[00:05:48] wife and mother. So it seems this is not just a one off that he's

[00:05:52] confessed to one or two people. He's confessed to dozens

[00:05:56] of people and the state apparently intends to call each

[00:06:00] person every one of those peoples to the stand. Those peoples, yeah

[00:06:04] these this is a

[00:06:08] well let me kind of look at this through like the most

[00:06:12] positive for the defense lens possible. It's highly

[00:06:16] possible probably even that not all of these 30 or so

[00:06:20] people got full fledged confessions. The

[00:06:24] meaning of incriminating statements that could be

[00:06:28] that could apply to some more vague statements than just you know

[00:06:32] straight up I did this. So I think it's we don't necessarily

[00:06:36] know that it is

[00:06:40] what exactly he said but that says pretty much as positive

[00:06:44] as I can spin it as far as I'm concerned. This is really bad for him

[00:06:48] I mean I

[00:06:52] this is again he's his own worst enemy in this case

[00:06:56] he's stating this constantly and to me

[00:07:00] what's especially damaging is that

[00:07:04] I think the best play for the defense here is probably mental health.

[00:07:08] Oh you know people who are psychotic sometimes say things that are not true

[00:07:12] they sometimes make claims that are not true. They sometimes

[00:07:16] maybe make confessions that are not true. I think that's the strongest

[00:07:20] move for the defense at this point that's been left to them.

[00:07:24] But I also do know that we've seen in other filings

[00:07:28] that he was examined by three mental

[00:07:32] health professionals at Westville who basically said something to the effect of

[00:07:36] if you don't calm down your violent you know your kind of aggressive behavior

[00:07:40] we are going to have to forcibly medicate you and

[00:07:44] he indicated that they did not need to forcibly medicate him

[00:07:48] and then his behavior seemingly from what we can extrapolate from that filing

[00:07:52] became better. When you're dealing with a

[00:07:56] person in crisis, a mental health crisis, someone who is dealing with psychosis

[00:08:00] I don't necessarily see that as something most people can

[00:08:04] control to that degree. They can't control it to the degree of

[00:08:08] oh sorry won't happen again.

[00:08:12] So I don't know how much comfort they're going to

[00:08:16] find in the mental health thing is all I'm saying I just don't know.

[00:08:20] Excellent point. Another thing we don't know and that I would be curious

[00:08:24] to know when he has made these

[00:08:28] confessions or incriminating statements or statements against his interests

[00:08:32] however you want to characterize them when he's made these two different people

[00:08:36] are they telling a similar story? Are they

[00:08:40] consistent with one another or are they different do the conflict

[00:08:44] or do the differences have some sort of reason behind them so what I mean

[00:08:48] by that is there might be instances in here where

[00:08:52] through recording or through being on camera

[00:08:56] or whatever the witnesses can say exactly what he said.

[00:09:00] In other instances are we dealing with a game of telephone? I know

[00:09:04] in the defense's filings they said that in one instance an inmate

[00:09:08] said that he claimed to have shot the girls. That doesn't, that's not good for the

[00:09:12] state because he didn't, you know, the girls were not shot in this case.

[00:09:16] My question is the inmate testifying directly, no

[00:09:20] I know he mentioned shooting them or is this a game of telephone where he mentions a gun

[00:09:24] and then that becomes he must have shot them so that's what I'm going to spread around.

[00:09:28] I don't know. This is where it gets important to really examine

[00:09:32] and look at the provenance and look at the

[00:09:36] origin but also the content of each individual statement in order to

[00:09:40] better assess how strong it is.

[00:09:44] So in the game of telephone we know that his

[00:09:48] statements to his wife and mother were made over the phone and those statements were recorded

[00:09:52] so if a confession or whatever you want to characterize it is

[00:09:56] recorded that would seem more compelling than someone just remembering it.

[00:10:00] Right. It indicates in here that some of these details

[00:10:04] and some of these statements were written down on like door sheets right after it

[00:10:08] happened so that might be compelling. That is compelling. Another thing

[00:10:12] that out at me is specifically mentions that some

[00:10:16] sort of incriminating statements or what have you were made

[00:10:20] to the warden as I'm sure you remember back

[00:10:24] in June of last year at a pretrial hearing when

[00:10:28] the warden was on the witness stand it was brought up that he had

[00:10:32] received some letters from Richard Amlin and then that line of questioning was

[00:10:36] shut down pretty quickly. Is it by the defense? Yes. What is it

[00:10:40] possible that those letters were

[00:10:44] confessions or statements against interest? If so

[00:10:48] and those were made in writing by Richard Amlin that would seem

[00:10:52] compelling. And you mentioned too that

[00:10:56] well let's go back to the defense when it just strike everything.

[00:11:00] Yeah, throw it all out. And what the

[00:11:04] prosecution is saying is no that doesn't

[00:11:08] make sense. We can't do an all or nothing

[00:11:12] situation. What we should do instead is defense attorneys

[00:11:16] make a list of the specific

[00:11:20] statements that you find problematic

[00:11:24] make a list of what it is about those statements you find

[00:11:28] problematic and then we can sort through them one by one.

[00:11:32] Absolutely so don't throw it all out and frankly if there

[00:11:36] are different contexts to some of these that sort of makes

[00:11:40] some sense. You also there's a difference I think in terms

[00:11:44] of being state actors but also in terms of you know

[00:11:48] motivations when you're dealing with a prison inmate

[00:11:52] versus a prison guard. You know there's the kind of stereotype

[00:11:56] about prison house sources or jailhouse sources

[00:12:00] is that someone might be trying to strike a deal get more favorable

[00:12:04] treatment if they make something up oh this guy confessed to me right.

[00:12:08] That's something that we absolutely do see in cases come

[00:12:12] up and they're not necessarily credible but does it

[00:12:16] guard a dog in that race? And is it

[00:12:20] the statement made in a circumstance where Richard Allen felt

[00:12:24] some form of coercion was he being

[00:12:28] intimidated or pressured by a state actor

[00:12:32] you know we all remember in a recent

[00:12:36] with the defense talked about how Lieutenant Jerry Holman is like

[00:12:40] a much bigger man more intimidating. Does that play a factor

[00:12:44] was he intimidated not acting of his own free will and

[00:12:48] volition but those factors don't seem to come into play

[00:12:52] when you are talking about alleged confessions

[00:12:56] made to a wife and a mother or perhaps

[00:13:00] confessions made in a letter to the warden and again

[00:13:04] we don't know if that is the form of the confessions took.

[00:13:08] Yes definitely the medium and the context

[00:13:12] of each statement is very important. If we're talking about

[00:13:16] a half-recollected you know third hand

[00:13:20] you know rumor at one part of the

[00:13:24] prison where people are just kind of repeating that then that's not obviously helpful to the state

[00:13:28] but stuff that is contemporaneously recorded

[00:13:32] and in a non-coercive place. In a non- yeah.

[00:13:36] As I say when you are talking to your wife you're not being coerced usually

[00:13:40] unless your wife is me. Or what have you

[00:13:44] or if you're writing if you're freely writing a letter to a warden.

[00:13:48] Yeah it's I can't under state how much

[00:13:52] I do feel that Richard Allen has damaged his own case and his own ability

[00:13:56] to be acquitted. I think he's consistently

[00:14:00] behaved like a man with a severe either a man with a severely

[00:14:04] guilty conscience who is trying to unload his guilt over

[00:14:08] killing these kids to whoever will listen or to a man who for reasons

[00:14:12] that none of us can understand maybe through mental illness or what not

[00:14:16] is essentially mimicking the behavior of a guilty man

[00:14:20] in order to get himself convicted for whatever reason.

[00:14:24] I think is a

[00:14:28] screamingly obvious point that it seems to

[00:14:32] it would be difficult to get a man

[00:14:36] acquitted if he has confessed or made incriminating

[00:14:40] statements to 30 different people all of whom are

[00:14:44] prepared to testify to those statements. It would seem to me that if a jury

[00:14:48] sees that number of people come forward

[00:14:52] and say we heard these sorts of things from these people

[00:14:56] we heard these sorts of things from Richard Allen. If the jury hears that over and over

[00:15:00] again even if the jury finds oh this particular person may not

[00:15:04] be credible or this particular person may not be credible. Just the sheer

[00:15:08] numbers seems to be a hard thing to overcome

[00:15:12] and if the defense responds to this by going

[00:15:16] through and indicating well this statement was made under these

[00:15:20] circumstances and should be tossed and the judge agrees.

[00:15:24] Even if you... You could knock off some of these and it's still a huge problem.

[00:15:28] You could knock off 20 confessions or incriminating statements

[00:15:32] and still have 10. Yeah, it's really bad. It's bad. The numbers are

[00:15:36] really really bad also. And you could knock all

[00:15:40] of them off and still have the recordings of the calls to the wife and mother.

[00:15:44] Yeah, that was really bad. This is like

[00:15:48] I mean this is shocking and I guess I just feel at this point it's like

[00:15:52] I think they do have an avenue with mental health. I really do

[00:15:56] but it is narrow. It is not... They can't just get up there and say well he was

[00:16:00] psychotic. Do we have any evidence for that?

[00:16:04] No. They have to have somebody willing to testify

[00:16:08] and take us through the journey of how a man is psychotic

[00:16:12] for this and then it stops. Was he

[00:16:16] put on a different kind of medication? Did something change?

[00:16:20] Didn't they say when he was in prison he was experimented on by prison doctors? Oh Jesus Christ

[00:16:24] but they need more than whatever they think is the

[00:16:28] social media grabbyist way of saying something. They need

[00:16:32] a narrative of mental health that fits

[00:16:36] his actual behaviors and fits his seeming ability to stop

[00:16:40] being psychotic when

[00:16:44] he's in prison. They need something that explains

[00:16:48] that to me because otherwise

[00:16:52] I don't know if mental health is going to be that much of a

[00:16:56] benefit for him. And again just the sheer number

[00:17:00] of incriminating statements or confessions just seems

[00:17:04] overwhelming and a really difficult, not impossible

[00:17:08] hurdle to overcome.

[00:17:12] I can't understand. We knew that this was bad

[00:17:16] when we saw the previous

[00:17:20] filings around okay he's made incriminating statements to other people

[00:17:24] and that was from the defense. And now that we have more context on this it's frankly

[00:17:28] only gotten worse in my mind. This is a pretty devastating

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[00:20:22] Why don't we move on and why don't you tell us about the motion that was filed

[00:20:26] in relationship to Todd Click? Absolutely

[00:20:30] Maybe first remind us who is Todd Click? Who is Todd Click? So Todd

[00:20:34] Click is the former assistant police chief in Rushville, Indiana.

[00:20:38] Rushville, Indiana is a city to

[00:20:42] the south of Indianapolis so it's not near Delphi which is to be clear

[00:20:46] to the north of Indianapolis. They're not nearby but they are the two

[00:20:50] sort of points

[00:20:54] at the center of the Odinus theory. The Odinus

[00:20:58] theory was seemingly put together originally by Kevin Murphy and

[00:21:02] Greg Farensey who then also brought in Todd Click to help them.

[00:21:06] And what seemingly, and we've really only heard about this from the defense side

[00:21:10] of things publicly so just this is what they're saying

[00:21:14] Farensey and Murphy were two

[00:21:18] FBI counterterrorism task force members. Farensey

[00:21:22] was a police officer up in Terrahote and

[00:21:26] Kevin Murphy was a state trooper and they investigated

[00:21:30] this Odinus theory that basically

[00:21:34] has like two different groups of men in Rushville and then the Delphi

[00:21:38] Logan's Port area coming together and sacrificing

[00:21:42] Abby and Libby as part of an Odinus cult.

[00:21:46] Well, the original version doesn't necessarily say that but the defense

[00:21:50] version they're going with sacrifice I think the original version is something a little bit more

[00:21:54] personal in terms of a specific motive but generally they share the same structure

[00:21:58] same people, people like Brad Holder, people like Patrick Westfall

[00:22:02] people like Elvis Fields, Johnny Messer

[00:22:06] and that is what the defense is going with so naturally

[00:22:10] unfortunately Greg Farensey was murdered a few years ago

[00:22:14] no one knows where Kevin Murphy stands or I'm sure some people know but I mean we don't

[00:22:18] know because he has not been publicly attached to any of this.

[00:22:22] Todd Klick is a very important witness for the defense

[00:22:26] because he is one of the people, one of the three investigators who can come forward and say

[00:22:30] let me take you through this theory here's why I feel the defense

[00:22:34] is correct, the prosecution is wrong and here's why I felt the prosecution

[00:22:38] didn't really listen to this theory enough or didn't take it seriously enough and here's where they made a mistake so

[00:22:42] I don't think it's too much to call

[00:22:46] Todd Klick a star witness for the defense. He's very

[00:22:50] important. Yes and to back that up I think

[00:22:54] the defense would agree with that characterization because they

[00:22:58] made an effort to get Todd Klick on the stand

[00:23:02] in the motion to dismiss hearing that was held on March 18th

[00:23:06] and it seemed like one of the reasons they did that was just

[00:23:10] they want to get this information out there. And kind of introduced Todd Klick as

[00:23:14] a credible law enforcement

[00:23:18] I guess figure who was supporting their side

[00:23:22] Yes so tell us about this filing

[00:23:26] Okay well

[00:23:30] McLean filed a motion for leave of court to subpoena third party records

[00:23:34] so you might be wondering what third party? Well it's the Rushville police department

[00:23:38] and what they're asking for is essentially personnel files

[00:23:42] for former Rushville assistant police chief Todd Klick

[00:23:46] and they note that the defense has listed

[00:23:50] him as a witness that they tend to call and that his

[00:23:54] purpose is to explain why he believes other people were involved in the crime

[00:23:58] and what the state is now saying in this filing is

[00:24:02] quote, the state believes that Todd Klick his employee records that show a

[00:24:06] Brady Gileo violation that could call into questions credibility as a witness

[00:24:10] violations could also call into question the veracity of his testimony

[00:24:14] So what on earth is a Brady Gileo

[00:24:18] violation? Yeah it looks like Giglio I kept on wanting to say that but

[00:24:22] What is it? Okay well it's kind of complicated

[00:24:30] When you're talking about a Brady Gileo list

[00:24:34] that is a list that no law enforcement officer wants to end up on

[00:24:38] what it means is that if you end up on that list

[00:24:42] which is usually compiled by like a prosecutor's office

[00:24:46] you have a history as law enforcement officer of lying

[00:24:50] of getting convicted of crimes of being untruthful

[00:24:54] or anything that will call your credibility into question

[00:24:58] So a Brady Gileo violation is you've covered something up or you've lied

[00:25:02] or you've done something bad that calls your credibility

[00:25:06] into questions and once you've done that then you can potentially end up

[00:25:10] on a list accessible to defense attorneys who then if you're called as a witness in a

[00:25:14] case they can say oh look you have a history of lying

[00:25:18] and if you have a witness in a case who's able to be confronted with

[00:25:22] evidence of prior behavior which questions their credibility

[00:25:26] that witnesses value diminishes to almost

[00:25:30] nothing. That is it can be

[00:25:34] a career killer it's definitely not where you want to end up

[00:25:38] Brady and Gileo refer to

[00:25:42] basically two important Supreme Court cases that ended up

[00:25:46] determining a lot around witnesses

[00:25:50] evidence and criminal procedures. So first came

[00:25:54] Brady v Maryland then Gileo the United States

[00:25:58] and Gileo was sort of an extension of

[00:26:02] Brady and it requires

[00:26:06] essentially Gileo in particular

[00:26:10] what it did was it made it so that the

[00:26:14] prosecution must always inform a jury that a witness in a criminal

[00:26:18] case in a case was offered some sort of

[00:26:22] deal where they would not be prosecuted in exchange for their testimony.

[00:26:26] So if I make a deal with Kevin hey Kevin I'm not gonna

[00:26:30] I'm always the criminal so if Kevin says Anya you're a serial

[00:26:34] theft, serial, serial thief I am going to not prosecute

[00:26:38] you as if you testify against the hamburger or whatever

[00:26:42] to go with a food themed thief then

[00:26:46] that is possible you know that that's if he does not then as the prosecutor

[00:26:50] disclose that to the jury into the defense or whatever then that can

[00:26:54] be a Gileo violation. Is that your understanding

[00:26:58] Yeah basically they are suggesting in this

[00:27:02] case that Todd Klick in the course of his law enforcement career

[00:27:06] may have done something that indicates

[00:27:10] his testimony and his word is not good.

[00:27:14] Now we looked up a public Indiana Brady

[00:27:18] and Gileo list right what did you find? I didn't find anything

[00:27:22] and so I don't know what information this state has

[00:27:26] I don't know if they are correct

[00:27:30] obviously in for them to confirm whatever information they have

[00:27:34] or things they have they need these records from the Rushville police.

[00:27:38] They seem pretty confident but I mean I don't know I would think that they would need more than just

[00:27:42] a rumor. If they get these records

[00:27:46] and it backs up their allegation

[00:27:50] that Todd Klick has committed a Brady or Gileo violation

[00:27:54] that does damage his credibility tremendously

[00:27:58] automatically becomes heavily damaged goods.

[00:28:02] Generally speaking you don't even want a police officer to testify in a

[00:28:06] speeding ticket case if he is on the Brady list because

[00:28:10] a police officer's credibility in matters

[00:28:14] big and small plays a huge role

[00:28:18] in how we assess what he has to say about things.

[00:28:22] So if with a prosecution is suggesting is correct

[00:28:26] which we don't even know the nature of any of these allegations.

[00:28:30] I'm not prepared to come down on one side or another without knowing what exactly

[00:28:34] are they alluding to what exactly does this refer to.

[00:28:38] If it's not clear to us if the public information

[00:28:42] is not out there then

[00:28:46] I don't feel like it's fair to necessarily malign somebody's credibility

[00:28:50] when you're commenting on this publicly without knowing

[00:28:54] what the basis for this.

[00:28:58] Yes so if what they're saying is true and as Anya points out it's a huge if

[00:29:02] that is a serious blow to the

[00:29:06] value of Todd Klick as a witness. May I ask you something?

[00:29:10] So this is interesting but like are all Brady Gileo lists

[00:29:14] public or can the Rush County prosecutor basically have

[00:29:18] that in his desk pull it out oh yeah okay yeah Todd Klick is on there.

[00:29:22] We need to be public because really we're in an unusual situation here

[00:29:26] because we have a law enforcement officer testifying for the defense

[00:29:30] usually law enforcement officers testify for the prosecution

[00:29:34] and you want to have the list be public because the people

[00:29:38] who really need to know them are defense attorneys.

[00:29:42] So in all cases they are public. Should be public. Okay other question

[00:29:46] is that could this be a situation if Todd Klick is not on any public

[00:29:50] at some point then you know either they're completely making it up on the

[00:29:54] prosecution side or they're saying he should have been added to one and here's

[00:29:58] what we're going to in we're talking about this specific incident. Yeah so

[00:30:02] this can be a situation where they're not saying he's on one but they're saying

[00:30:06] he should be on one. Yeah they're saying basically

[00:30:10] we've heard this we want to either verify it or presumably debunk it

[00:30:14] so we need to get these records from Rushville. Okay and it sounds like what they specifically

[00:30:18] from Rushville is his personnel files

[00:30:22] that's what they're asking for in this subpoena

[00:30:26] documents pertaining to his personal

[00:30:30] records.

[00:30:34] So yeah

[00:30:38] again it's important because he's important to the defense's case and if the prosecution

[00:30:42] If they lose Klick that's another blow

[00:30:46] or if even Klick is dented by

[00:30:50] you know I mean would they basically get his testimony thrown out if they

[00:30:54] succeed or would it. It wouldn't necessarily be thrown out but you could

[00:30:58] have Nick McLean stand up in front

[00:31:02] of the jury and point out oh this officer who's telling you all these

[00:31:06] stories look at what else he's done he's done something. Okay that

[00:31:10] could be really damaging because I think a lot of people

[00:31:14] really look at someone who is you know a long term

[00:31:18] respected law enforcement official and say that person has

[00:31:22] some inherent credibility and I think a lot of people certainly

[00:31:26] understandably would be

[00:31:30] thinking that about Todd Klick because it's like

[00:31:34] he doesn't have a reason to make this up he obviously feels sincerely about this so if they were able to

[00:31:38] land any of this it would be pretty devastating for the defense but

[00:31:42] again we don't know what it's about. It's a big if. It's a big if because we don't know

[00:31:46] we don't know. So I implore you to try not to

[00:31:50] judge or make any determination about that until we get more

[00:31:54] Yeah let's not immediately

[00:31:58] jump on an opinion about this without knowing at all what it's

[00:32:02] about. Now we covered it up through

[00:32:06] seamless editing but in the middle of this recording

[00:32:10] session you remember the beginning of the recording session I said oh we have two documents

[00:32:14] but since we started recording a third document has

[00:32:18] been filed. What was this third document? A motion

[00:32:22] to compel sanctions from the

[00:32:26] defense. Yes and it's also about Todd Klick

[00:32:30] kind of and other things. So

[00:32:34] the defense has always made

[00:32:38] clear their unhappiness with how the state has

[00:32:42] handled discovery issues. So in here

[00:32:46] they talk a lot about how we received

[00:32:50] a lot of discovery from the

[00:32:54] state that hasn't been labeled. We don't know where this is or that is

[00:32:58] it should be labeled. What's the cliche we often hear

[00:33:02] about they don't bake the cake? Is that a cliche or is that just some

[00:33:06] thing I made up? Maybe it's both.

[00:33:10] My understanding is that they need to give

[00:33:14] defense access to the ingredients for the cake they do not

[00:33:18] need to bake the defense a cake. So the difference between

[00:33:22] basically their job is to hand over all of the

[00:33:26] discovery and make sure the defense has a comprehensive

[00:33:30] all of the discovery that they need. Every piece of discovery gets handed

[00:33:34] over their job is not to make it pretty for the defense or

[00:33:38] outline it or say oh here's a quick way to remember where every

[00:33:42] piece is that's not their jobs. So I don't know why the defense

[00:33:46] constantly complains about that because it's sort of like

[00:33:50] okay. They have other complaints which may be more legitimate

[00:33:54] about getting the discovery much later than they feel they should

[00:33:58] have. Those complaints may be legitimate. I would be very

[00:34:02] interested to see how prosecutor McLean

[00:34:06] responds to that and what explanations he has for

[00:34:10] why the discovery may have been turned over a lot later

[00:34:14] than it should have been. Should we just talk about

[00:34:18] then so they indicate this is unfair

[00:34:22] there needs to be sanctions. Should we talk more about what they think is unfair

[00:34:26] should we just talk about what sanctions they want? I think you summed it up pretty well.

[00:34:30] I guess maybe let's kind of broadly things that they think are unfair kind of Kevin

[00:34:34] outlined the general aspects of it. Why don't you

[00:34:38] hit some specifics? Well they're complaining a lot about Liberty German's cell

[00:34:42] phone. They say that

[00:34:46] the defense was unable to locate in discovery the data from Liberty

[00:34:50] German's phone sent an email to prosecutor McLean in

[00:34:54] June of 2023 and

[00:34:58] they gave it to them in September of that

[00:35:02] year. So

[00:35:06] then they talk about

[00:35:10] there's a lot of like we don't have enough time to do any of this

[00:35:14] but we can't delay because

[00:35:18] that would be bad for Richard Allen. They talk about getting

[00:35:22] delay in getting the assistant rushville police chief Todd click letter report

[00:35:26] and evidence. Yeah those are kind of the big things

[00:35:30] should we talk about what they're requesting as far as sanctions

[00:35:34] why don't we

[00:35:38] let's do it one by one. Okay so read the first one quote that the state

[00:35:42] of Indiana be sanctioned for its discovery violations in the following way

[00:35:46] one this court will instruct the jury that the prosecution

[00:35:50] received certain evidence that tended to exonerate the defendant on May 1st

[00:35:54] 2023 but failed to turn over that evidence for over four months

[00:35:58] and said and that said failure to timely produce

[00:36:02] that evidence to the defense was a violation of the rules. So they're asking

[00:36:06] for the judge to tell the jury that there's evidence which

[00:36:10] exonerates Richard Allen. That seems like that's a very unlikely

[00:36:14] that seems like that's a hard ask

[00:36:18] without knowing what is in the Todd

[00:36:22] click report and letter I don't know.

[00:36:26] To permit the defense to play any video that was belatedly

[00:36:30] produced without objection from the state of Indiana. Oh is there going to be like a

[00:36:34] YouTube sharing session that's exciting no I actually I don't what is that

[00:36:38] about I'm not sure Jesus

[00:36:42] they're gonna get all their faves in there

[00:36:46] three prevent the prosecution from rebutting the evidence that Todd click provided

[00:36:50] to the prosecution on May 1st 2023

[00:36:54] don't let them say anything bad about this

[00:36:58] so this also underscores the importance of Todd click

[00:37:02] is a witness because they're saying specifically

[00:37:06] don't look at him

[00:37:10] don't challenge it we just have to accept it

[00:37:14] that's a pretty big F

[00:37:18] is my being too hard on that

[00:37:22] is that in the realm of reality

[00:37:26] that seems a pretty extraordinary thing also just so fragile

[00:37:30] don't even rebut it please we need this to go

[00:37:34] off without a hitch or present the prosecution from using

[00:37:38] any data or information extracted from Lily Germans phone

[00:37:42] in its evidentiary presentation this would include

[00:37:46] the down the hill video they really don't want that in there

[00:37:50] I wonder why

[00:37:54] yeah they don't want that in there they don't want the audio recording in there

[00:37:58] it's yeah

[00:38:02] maybe this I don't know if there's other stuff but those two things

[00:38:06] pretty huge ass I think this seems very unrealistic based on

[00:38:10] the issues and also reminds me of emotion they filed fairly recently

[00:38:14] when they asked for Nick McLean to be required to pay for all of

[00:38:18] a million dollars it's like yeah okay this seems like what like

[00:38:22] they're asking for things which don't seem especially realistic

[00:38:26] no or like based in case law or the evidence

[00:38:30] or anything and they seem to acknowledge that because they say that we're just trying

[00:38:34] to build a record so that's suggesting maybe playing for an appeal

[00:38:38] I don't know yeah good luck with that in this situation I mean there might be

[00:38:42] some legal issues in this case I would say that probably almost certainly are

[00:38:46] but on this I don't know I have a hard time believing

[00:38:50] that they also mentioned several times throughout this that basically

[00:38:54] either the either the state didn't give us this

[00:38:58] discovery or we couldn't find it guess what if it's the latter that's a you

[00:39:02] problem that is not the state's problem that you are so disorganized

[00:39:06] that you can't figure out a way to order material is disorganized well

[00:39:10] materials disorganized you know that's why they're making the big bucks to look through it and figure it

[00:39:14] out you know I'm sorry maybe if they were spending a little bit more

[00:39:18] time on their own discovery instead of trying to talk to every

[00:39:22] crank in you know the on the internet maybe they would have more time for

[00:39:26] some of that like I don't even that is not the state's

[00:39:30] problem the state does not have to give them a color coded find you know series

[00:39:34] of binders you know organizing it perfectly for them that's there

[00:39:38] that's the job of the attorneys and their staff to do that

[00:39:42] and so I just it just strikes me as sort of ridiculous

[00:39:46] to be even complaining about some of this it seems like it's not clear to me that they're actually

[00:39:50] missing any of it

[00:39:54] and it makes me a lot of these defense filings

[00:39:58] recently make me wonder if they're still going for a factually

[00:40:02] innocent defense wow okay what are you what's your

[00:40:06] that's a heck of a thing to drop at the end of an episode Kevin what do you mean

[00:40:10] well I'm just curious they're trying to

[00:40:14] they want the information from the phone taken out

[00:40:18] they want all of the information all the

[00:40:22] 30 plus confessions taken out

[00:40:26] in fairness they might just be incriminating statements and not full-fledged

[00:40:30] confessions in fairness to him in fairness

[00:40:34] so it makes me wonder

[00:40:38] I mean I as defense attorneys their job is to try to get as much thrown out

[00:40:42] as possible so they got to do it that's certainly true so I mean that's

[00:40:46] their jobs what I look at is do I feel like they're doing their jobs in an effective

[00:40:50] way and do I feel like these filings have much chance of success

[00:40:54] this one no definitely not

[00:40:58] I think they're asking for a lot

[00:41:02] if they would do better at trying to win smaller battles that then

[00:41:06] build up to something big rather than trying to like

[00:41:10] do the kind of the biggest move without necessarily having the

[00:41:14] backing to do so

[00:41:18] and if I were their friends right now I would be very concerned about whatever is in those

[00:41:22] rush full records for Todd click

[00:41:26] maybe it's nothing could very well be nothing I don't know

[00:41:30] with this too I guess one thing that I

[00:41:34] think about is you know I mean I'm

[00:41:38] I was the skeptic about May I've bought onto the May

[00:41:42] train I think I thought at least it was going to happen in May

[00:41:46] and now I'm back to like I don't know because it does seem like

[00:41:50] they're making an awful lot of complaints about you know timing and not having

[00:41:54] enough time and oh we really want this to happen now but you know

[00:41:58] basically say in here we don't have the time

[00:42:02] to do a proper defense but we have to do it because Richard Allen

[00:42:06] is in such bad straights yeah that seems to be

[00:42:10] the most appealable thing in this whole thing they're trying to set up this

[00:42:14] impression that we absolutely have to try this now because

[00:42:18] you know you'll make a record that they weren't ready I guess

[00:42:22] you know if we were incompetent it was because we were rushed and now

[00:42:26] if we were rushed it was because he was in he was in bad straights

[00:42:30] I guess I don't know I

[00:42:34] that could be effective here's the thing

[00:42:38] being in prison anywhere is awful it's just plainly

[00:42:42] awful so it was being in jail being in jail is awful

[00:42:46] being incarcerated is awful that's all I'm saying it's awful

[00:42:50] and so if he had a choice between

[00:42:54] being in jail for an extra five months until

[00:42:58] October and then maybe we'll have a better chance of getting you out forever

[00:43:02] or we're rushed through it now we do kind of a half

[00:43:06] ass job but we'll do our best and maybe have a better chance of being incarcerated

[00:43:10] forever if you're really concerned about

[00:43:14] the man's welfare and you think you don't have everything ready

[00:43:18] maybe prepare him to be there for a few extra

[00:43:22] months and take the time to put together a more solid defense

[00:43:26] it reminds me of like sometimes you and I will put like some sort of artificial deadline

[00:43:30] on ourselves and then we'll like get ourselves really stressed out for no reason like we have

[00:43:34] to edit this episode by the end of the day and then we like think about it really

[00:43:38] what if we just finish it tomorrow morning yeah you know and it's like nothing

[00:43:42] in this case there's like a lot of human cry about he's

[00:43:46] doing so badly he's doing so badly frankly if the

[00:43:50] is a normal jail I don't know if that is the remedy that they think it's going to

[00:43:54] be if they're so concerned by people yelling baby killer at him things could

[00:43:58] get more violent in a less secure environment so

[00:44:02] I mean I don't know if there's like a solution here

[00:44:06] and then second of all I completely agree with you getting

[00:44:10] it right on the first try and being you know I don't know how

[00:44:14] convincing an appeals court is going to find like we put this artificial deadline on ourselves

[00:44:18] based on I mean they're not saying

[00:44:22] he's telling them oh my gosh I'm doing so badly please hurry up and do this

[00:44:26] now you know we're not getting any of Richard Allen's voice necessarily

[00:44:30] we're just getting them telling us this

[00:44:34] the only people who've been getting Richard Allen's voices are apparently

[00:44:38] the 30 plus people who've heard him make incriminating statements

[00:44:42] and with that I guess are we done we're done alright thanks for listening everyone

[00:44:46] we're talking with you again soon bye

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