The Murder of Anita Byington: An Interview with the Innocence Project of Texas

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[00:01:36] Content warning this episode contains discussion of violence and murder

[00:01:42] This episode also follows up from our previous episode the murder of Anita Byington an interview with her cousin Christina Byington

[00:01:51] For a more in-depth recounting of the facts of the crime, please go back and listen to the introduction of that episode on

[00:01:58] August 11th

[00:02:00] 1991 a witness at the Spring Creek Apartments at

[00:02:05] 6407 Springdale Road in Austin, Texas made a horrifying discovery in

[00:02:11] The pale light of morning a young woman's body laid battered in a grassy patch in the complex

[00:02:18] This was 21 year old Anita Byington

[00:02:21] The Southwest Texas State University student had been out the night before with some friends and new acquaintances

[00:02:27] She gave a ride to one of those acquaintances a man named Kevin Harris, but she never made it back

[00:02:34] Harris claimed he last saw her at 3 a.m

[00:02:37] Her 1989 Brown Honda was found in a different apartment complex. And of course Anita herself was discovered dead around 6 30 a.m

[00:02:46] She was brutally beaten possibly with a concrete rain diverter. She died of severe head trauma

[00:02:54] Her family was left devastated

[00:02:57] Kevin Harris the man last seen with Anita

[00:03:00] Immediately became a focus of the investigation

[00:03:04] After all he made it home and she was killed

[00:03:08] He claimed that they'd had consensual sex before separating

[00:03:12] But police only had his word for that

[00:03:16] Anita was no longer around to explain whether or not she had actually consented soon

[00:03:21] No, Harris would become less of a focus a man named Alan Andre

[00:03:25] Causey came by a group of witnesses who were clustered around the crime scene

[00:03:30] He lived about a seven minute drive away. And so he circled the scene in his car before approaching

[00:03:36] Witnesses said he made odd statements

[00:03:38] Notably, I didn't kill her. He also claimed to have been the one to find the body

[00:03:44] Police interviewed him and kept talking to him after they say he gave conflicting accounts of his location the night Anita was killed

[00:03:51] Causey said he was with his friend Bobby Harrell that evening. So Harrell was brought in too

[00:03:58] But only cause he confessed

[00:04:00] He said that he and Harrell had been out to buy crack cocaine

[00:04:04] He saw Harrell outside arguing with a young woman when the young woman tried to run cause he said he chased her

[00:04:11] Knocked her down and choked her Harold then ultimately killed her with a cement brick

[00:04:16] Now again, Harold did not confess

[00:04:20] So he eventually went free when the charges against him were dropped due to lack of evidence

[00:04:26] But cause he's confession sealed his fate

[00:04:29] He was tried and convicted

[00:04:31] sentenced to 50 years in prison in

[00:04:35] 2022 he was paroled after serving 31 years

[00:04:39] Now a group of attorneys say that cause he deserves more than just parole

[00:04:44] They say that cause he is a factually innocent man who spent decades of his life in prison over a crime

[00:04:50] He did not commit

[00:04:51] They point to Kevin Harris as the real killer and say that cause he's confession was simply not true

[00:04:58] That he may have been coerced or tricked by police officers in our last episode. We heard Anita's cousin Christina

[00:05:05] Explain why she feels cause he is guilty and does not deserve to be exonerated in

[00:05:11] This episode we'll hear from the other side

[00:05:15] Innocence project of Texas has taken up cause he's case

[00:05:19] The Travis County Prosecutor's Office ultimately reached out to the team about some Brady violations

[00:05:26] after conducting a joint investigation with the innocence project

[00:05:29] Prosecutors also determined that they believed cause he was innocent

[00:05:34] Currently cause he's team has undergone a number of hearings before a judge seeking exoneration

[00:05:42] Once the judge makes her decision it will go to a higher court

[00:05:46] Of course, this isn't the innocence project of Texas's first time working such a case

[00:05:52] Currently led by executive director Mike Ware. This group has helped either exonerate or free 34 incarcerated individuals

[00:06:00] We had the chance to interview mr

[00:06:02] Ware along with senior staff attorney Jesse Freud staff attorney chase Baumgartner and

[00:06:08] attorney Amber Vasquez

[00:06:10] They told us about cause he's case and why they believe the evidence strongly points to his innocence

[00:06:16] They also explained what they really believe happened to Anita

[00:06:21] they talked about why they feel local and national politics have had an impact on the case and

[00:06:27] They told us about the work they do striving to exonerate and free their clients

[00:06:31] From the moment a prisoner writes them a letter to the court hearings that would ultimately determine that prisoners fate

[00:06:38] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee

[00:06:42] I'm an attorney and this is the murder sheet where a true crime podcast focused on original reporting

[00:06:49] interviews and deep dives into murder cases

[00:06:51] We're the murder sheet and this is the murder of Anita Byington an interview with the innocence project of Texas I

[00:07:44] Suppose to start out with can you all please just introduce yourselves and

[00:07:50] Tell us a little bit about your legal background and how you came to work with the innocence project

[00:07:57] Sure, I can start. I'm Jesse Freud. I'm a senior staff attorney with the innocence project of Texas

[00:08:02] I have been a staff attorney since 2018

[00:08:06] But I actually got started with IP TX as a law student at Baylor

[00:08:10] My first case that I worked on was the Joe Brian case

[00:08:13] some people may be familiar with that case out of Clifton, Texas and I

[00:08:18] Was a volunteer law student and then a volunteer lawyer until 2018 when I became staff counsel

[00:08:24] And I split my time between the organization and my private practice where I now just do a pellet and post conviction work

[00:08:31] My name is Chase bum Gartner

[00:08:33] I'm a staff attorney with innocence project of Texas and I've been full-time with them since November of

[00:08:40] 2022 and

[00:08:42] Just like Jesse. I started as a volunteer law student as well

[00:08:45] But the reason I got plugged into the innocence project was because of my prior work with the Texas Department of Public Safety

[00:08:50] As a DNA analyst, I actually heard Jesse speak at Baylor about the Joe Brian case

[00:08:55] She talked about the difficulties of the forensic science

[00:08:59] I reached out to her and said, would you like some help in forensic cases going forward?

[00:09:03] She said come on on board and we've been working together ever since so that's how I got plugged in

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[00:11:38] I'm amber Vasquez. I'm a private criminal defense attorney in Austin and I handle

[00:11:44] murderers and cold cases and things like that and have just joined in as local counsel on this case to

[00:11:52] Help out kind of logistically with the the local

[00:11:58] Climate and and culture to get through it. So yeah, it's been a pleasure working with these guys

[00:12:05] Les Amber's an excellent lawyer and she's kind enough to be working pro bono

[00:12:11] So, my name is Mike where I'm an attorney in Fort Worth, Texas, I've been licensed since

[00:12:18] 1983 I'm board certified in criminal law. I was a criminal defense lawyer

[00:12:23] for

[00:12:24] decades and became interested in innocence work in about

[00:12:29] 2005 when the local law school here started an innocence program with their students and I

[00:12:34] asked me to be their adjunct professor and then in 2006

[00:12:38] I co-founded the innocence project of Texas, which is a freestanding 501 c3 nonprofit and

[00:12:45] with with a law school friend of mine Jeff Blackburn and then in

[00:12:50] 2007 Fred Watkins got elected to the position of district attorney of Dallas County and

[00:12:57] He was the first black district attorney of Dallas County first black district attorney in Texas

[00:13:02] And Dallas County at that time and for the previous

[00:13:07] 50 years or whatever had a terrible reputation

[00:13:10] For unethical conduct for racism and we were in the adjacent county Tarrant County and we hated going to Dallas County

[00:13:17] Because of the way we were treated the way our clients were treated

[00:13:21] When we went over there, so

[00:13:23] That was sort of a

[00:13:24] Standard with us in Tarrant County how much we hated Dallas County and it was pretty much true all over the state

[00:13:29] I mean they came by their reputation. Honestly, I don't know if you ever saw

[00:13:33] The documentary thin blue line about the Randall Dale Adams case

[00:13:38] That that's pretty typical of Dallas County

[00:13:40] And of course after that there was a lesser known case that was on 60 minutes. Lynelle Jeter that was exonerated. I don't know in the 80s

[00:13:49] Anyway when Craig got elected

[00:13:51] A lot of people started fleeing the DA's office because they were scared that he was going to expose them

[00:13:56] He was an outsider, etc. And he did run on a platform of reform

[00:14:01] Although at the time we didn't know to what degree

[00:14:04] But he asked me to come over there to leave private practice come next door to Dallas County

[00:14:10] And start what he and his first new first assistant Terry Moore who was a very good friend of mine

[00:14:15] We're calling a conviction integrity unit

[00:14:18] At that time no one had ever heard of conviction integrity units. There were no conviction integrity units

[00:14:23] We really didn't know what it was. We were just going to start one and run run one in real time

[00:14:28] We had no templates to go by

[00:14:31] But the idea was we were going to Dallas County had so many wrongful convictions

[00:14:36] Just that we knew of

[00:14:38] That we believed it would be the right thing to do to have a unit to investigate

[00:14:43] Potential and possible wrongful convictions from inside the district attorney's office

[00:14:48] And to cooperate with defense lawyers in cases in which we as professionals as experienced professionals

[00:14:56] Believed that this person was completely innocent

[00:15:00] It was a revolutionary idea frankly at the time and we got a whole lot of pushback by conservative Dallas County

[00:15:07] But it turned out we were very successful and during the four years I was there we had I don't know approximately 25

[00:15:14] proven exonerations

[00:15:16] of completely innocent men that had been convicted by past administrations

[00:15:21] And so the concept

[00:15:23] Caught on all over the country

[00:15:25] And you hear about conviction integrity units now. I mean Indianapolis may have one. I don't know but you know

[00:15:32] New York Manhattan has one Los Angeles has one. There's you know, four or five in Texas

[00:15:38] You know, they're all different Philadelphia definitely has one. They're all different and some

[00:15:44] are

[00:15:46] What had been known as cry nose conviction integrity units and in name only but some of them are very good

[00:15:53] But anyway when I left Dallas County to go back into private practice in 2011

[00:15:58] I went back on the board of the innocence project of Texas. My first case when I went back was the San Antonio four

[00:16:06] which became a case of some

[00:16:09] Notoriety and success there's an award-winning documentary about the case called southwest asylum

[00:16:15] And and then in

[00:16:17] 2015

[00:16:19] I became the executive director of the innocence project of Texas and started

[00:16:24] Devoting most of my time to both teaching the law school students and to running the non-profit

[00:16:30] Now I kept my private practice for a while

[00:16:32] I've just recently given up my private practice completely except for the old cases that are hanging around but i've been the executive director since

[00:16:41] 2015

[00:16:43] Absolutely. I want to start off with a process question and that's just something folks may not realize but how does the innocence project of Texas?

[00:16:51] Go about selecting cases that you're sort of going to work on help with things like that

[00:16:57] You know

[00:16:58] It's a process

[00:17:00] And it's it's some of the hardest work that we do and the most important work that we do

[00:17:05] Because we do get a lot of solicitations. I mean, we don't charge for our work and

[00:17:12] There are

[00:17:13] well over 130 000 inmates in texas state prisons

[00:17:18] And the experts who study

[00:17:21] these things

[00:17:22] say that

[00:17:24] From my understanding. These are academics, etc that probably two to six percent

[00:17:29] of

[00:17:31] Convicted felons are actually innocent

[00:17:34] That they didn't do what it is they were convicted of or any lesser included offenses or anything like that so

[00:17:42] If you apply that to 130 000 plus inmates and that doesn't include

[00:17:47] Inmates in the local county jails. It doesn't include

[00:17:51] Federal inmates. It doesn't include people who are serving criminal justice sentences on parole or probation

[00:17:58] If you just apply that percentage to the well over 130 000

[00:18:02] Conservatively, there's

[00:18:04] Probably 5 000 completely innocent people in texas prisons

[00:18:09] so

[00:18:10] identifying

[00:18:11] Those people is is is a huge part of our job and it's a process

[00:18:16] I don't think the old trope that everybody in prison says they're innocent is true because that's not true at all

[00:18:24] A whole lot of people in prison do not claim that they're innocent. Some some may even brag about their their their crimes

[00:18:31] but

[00:18:32] A lot of people write us. Maybe we get

[00:18:36] Well over 100 letters a month

[00:18:38] That usually is what begins the process some people are not even claiming actual innocence

[00:18:43] But they're they have some other legal issue. And of course, that's not what we do. We weed those out

[00:18:49] but

[00:18:49] It you know, we have to do our due diligence with everyone

[00:18:52] We have to read the trial transcripts order the trial transcripts read the police report

[00:18:57] And if if it still looks promising if it still looks like this person really

[00:19:01] is actually innocent and by that what we mean is

[00:19:05] The crime either happened

[00:19:08] pretty much

[00:19:09] Like the police the witnesses and the prosecution say it happened. It's just this person didn't do it. It was somebody else

[00:19:18] or it may be

[00:19:19] That there was no crime at all the san antonio four case

[00:19:23] For example, there was no crime at all. They got prosecuted for a crime that had no existence outside the words of the indictment

[00:19:29] one example of those

[00:19:31] And we have a case going right now are arson cases

[00:19:35] where

[00:19:36] You know initially at the trial some

[00:19:40] police officer

[00:19:42] fireman arson investigator maybe with a high school education

[00:19:46] testified

[00:19:47] as to

[00:19:48] Their opinion that this was an arson and why?

[00:19:51] Now we know through modern updated science that many if not all of the things that were formerly considered to be

[00:19:59] Hallmarks red flags of an arson are not

[00:20:03] Hallmarks of an arson at all and that the fire

[00:20:06] That someone got convicted of setting actually was not arson at all

[00:20:11] But was caused by something completely different the butch martin case

[00:20:15] We have going on in texas is like that. So that that's a case in which people died

[00:20:19] So he was charged with arson and murder and in fact, it was not even an arson

[00:20:24] So there was no crime. Can you tell us about alan andre?

[00:20:28] Cozzi and how the innocence project came to take on that particular case jesse. You want to address that?

[00:20:34] sure, so

[00:20:37] Andre had written us about

[00:20:40] I think a couple years before we had eventually been contacted by

[00:20:45] The travis county conviction integrity unit

[00:20:49] Notifying us that hey, they knew we were looking into this case because he had written for our assistance

[00:20:55] And that they had a brady disclosure to make to us and that based on that brady disclosure

[00:21:02] They believed they were going to open a reinvestigation into the case

[00:21:07] Wanted to make sure that because he was represented that we were timely notified

[00:21:11] And then from there the reinvestigation moved forward

[00:21:14] So it was a combination of we had started the process that mike talked about

[00:21:18] Of looking into the case because he had written us and then our process became accelerated

[00:21:23] Because of the notification we received from the conviction integrity unit just to give a sense of

[00:21:29] Just setting the scene when when did all that happen? How long has your team been working on this case?

[00:21:36] by this point

[00:21:38] By this point

[00:21:41] I want to say at least three or four years chase. Does that sound right? Yeah, I think he wrote in

[00:21:47] 2018 or 19 i'll see if I can pull up the letter here while we're

[00:21:51] And then by the time we actually were able to get to him it was somewhere I think between 2020

[00:21:58] around the pandemic in 2021

[00:22:01] and then I believe the

[00:22:03] Notification from the conviction integrity unit should have been I believe in early 2022. I believe around april

[00:22:09] Yeah, he wrote to us end of 2018 and that's when we

[00:22:13] Wrote him our first letter back was december 7th of 2018

[00:22:17] Understood. So this is really this is this takes time. You can't this is not an overnight process

[00:22:22] It sounds like I was wondering could you tell us about mr. Kazi's case and you know specifically?

[00:22:28] Anita buyington what happened to her? What are sort of the underlying facts of

[00:22:33] um what he was charged with and what your team sort of

[00:22:37] Found as you dug into it

[00:22:40] Sure. So anita buyington was found behind a east austin apartment complex

[00:22:47] on august 11th of 1991

[00:22:51] After she went out for an evening on sixth street with a group of five friends

[00:22:56] And she was found tragically beaten

[00:22:58] And she was clothed. She was found face down on the ground

[00:23:03] There was a concrete rain diverter found a couple feet from her body that had a saturated blood stain on it

[00:23:11] And approximately between 6 30 and 7 in the morning an apartment resident had called 911 after discovering her body

[00:23:19] And for your indianapolis listeners six street in austin is like the broad ripple of indianapolis so it's the street full of bars and

[00:23:26] Uh, just full of you know that kind of nightlight. So it should give you a sense of that

[00:23:31] Chase that is very much appreciated now. I I can definitely picture that so in terms of

[00:23:36] So this is obviously a horrible horrible murder of a young woman. Um

[00:23:41] you know in terms of

[00:23:43] How you you know dig into it and then sort of determined, you know, I guess even before

[00:23:48] Travis county sort of got involved what was sort of indicating to you that this might be in your opinion a wrongful conviction that you

[00:23:56] The team would want to work on I suppose

[00:23:58] So I think one of the first red flags was obviously the fact that the client had really maintained his innocence

[00:24:05] That's always something that's very important to us that the client has been unwavering in the main the maintaining of his innocence

[00:24:11] and also that

[00:24:13] We now know that and came to learn even more so once we got the brady information

[00:24:20] but we now know that a lot of the

[00:24:23] accounts of the

[00:24:25] Confession that was attributed to him. We knew after the fact were

[00:24:31] Consistent and reliable with some other experiences of individuals who had been

[00:24:35] Interrogated by the austin police department homicide unit during this period of time, which is really between 1988

[00:24:42] And 1992

[00:24:45] And

[00:24:47] that alone, I think was a real big red flag apd homicide had a

[00:24:52] Notorious reputation by the time we get the case

[00:24:56] That they were knowingly taking false confessions from murder suspects in very high profile cases

[00:25:02] that again coupled with the

[00:25:04] Information about cases like individuals like chris ochoa who ended up testifying at our evidentiary hearing about his experience

[00:25:12] and his 2002 exoneration

[00:25:14] There were just so many similarities between what andre had said happened to him at trial

[00:25:20] And what we now knew 20 30 years later about that experience for murder suspects

[00:25:27] Interrogated by apd homicide unit during that time most notably, of course, um hector palma

[00:25:34] And that's all coupled with the lack of other evidence supporting the confession or the conviction rather

[00:25:40] The lack of evidence supporting the conviction it really just all rested on the confession

[00:25:43] So there was no other evidence

[00:25:45] We had to refute once the confession fell apart

[00:25:48] The rest of the case was nothing to support that he was guilty in any sense

[00:25:52] I'll also say and of course, you know i'll be the first to concede that

[00:25:56] You know in evaluating the case you have to be very careful about this sort of thing

[00:26:00] But I you know, it was true with the san antonio four when I went down and talked to those four women in prison

[00:26:08] I firmly believe there's no way they could have committed a crime

[00:26:12] Anything close to what they were convicted of?

[00:26:15] And with andre andre is is a gentle soul a gentle quiet soul with no violent criminal history

[00:26:23] It just seemed it didn't make sense

[00:26:26] The lack of relationship to of course the state's theory of the case that this was a stranger on stranger drug deal gone wrong

[00:26:34] They attributed that the that anita was a drug user

[00:26:38] Like to go to chase's point about lack of corroboration

[00:26:41] That was a big red flag for us that the case file represented very strong statements by her family that she had

[00:26:48] Zero history of using drugs and so for the occasion that she's murdered for her for this to be her first experience again

[00:26:56] Lack of corroboration just seemed very inconsistent with the single piece of evidence in this case, which was this statement

[00:27:03] One thing I wanted to ask you about and this kind of gets into something mike said earlier about these conviction integrity

[00:27:11] units, um

[00:27:12] You know, so travis county prosecutor's office sort of reaches out to you with this brady issue. I guess can you speak through?

[00:27:20] uh their role in this and sort of is that

[00:27:22] Typically what prosecutor's offices are doing or are we seeing more and more of that as some of these convictions are being

[00:27:28] Looked at closer. I think mike is probably the best person to talk about historical

[00:27:33] disclosures and practices

[00:27:35] But now since the michael morton act in texas, there is a statutory right that defendants have and that is imputed on

[00:27:43] prosecutors to make

[00:27:45] Disclosures even after conviction time doesn't matter about any favorable evidence that would be material to guilt or punishment

[00:27:53] And so that is I think maybe something that's a little different in texas than maybe some other jurisdictions

[00:28:00] But mike can talk about what they were doing in dallas when this all started

[00:28:04] Yeah, and you know even before dallas and chris ochoa's case, which was part of the polanco era

[00:28:12] Which is what this has

[00:28:13] Come to become known as the polanco era. We didn't give it that name

[00:28:18] But this you know this almost about a two-year window of which you know andre's case is right in the middle of when

[00:28:26] This the polanco crew

[00:28:29] took seven proven false confessions and

[00:28:33] I think

[00:28:35] Maybe we don't need to get too far off into the weeds on this

[00:28:38] But there's a difference between a coerced confession and a false confession

[00:28:42] Sometimes they're the same sometimes confessions are false because they're coerced

[00:28:47] Sometimes not a recent case we had out of ecter county, which is odessa, texas home of friday night lights

[00:28:54] Not a very liberal place

[00:28:57] We had a complete cooperation with the district attorney's office there. They don't actually have a formal conviction integrity unit

[00:29:04] They're they're they're a fair relatively small office

[00:29:07] But we had complete cooperation with them and exonerating james rayos

[00:29:12] Who is a man who falsely confessed to a murder back in the 1980s and was convicted because of that false confession

[00:29:20] He's a full-blooded apache

[00:29:22] He was a young man at the time. He did have a relationship

[00:29:25] with the catholic irish catholic priest who was murdered in a

[00:29:31] Seamy hotel room motel room, but he was obviously innocent of that

[00:29:38] Yet

[00:29:39] he

[00:29:40] Got intoxicated and called the police department and confessed to it

[00:29:45] oddly enough

[00:29:46] um, and we had we had an expert who kind of explained all that

[00:29:51] but

[00:29:52] That's not a coerced confession

[00:29:54] But it's a proven false confession because through the good work of the odessa police department recently

[00:30:01] And the good work of the ecter county da's office recently

[00:30:05] They have proven through forensic evidence the actual perpetrators of that crime and agreed to relief

[00:30:12] So this is this is not unique to travis county or new to travis county as a matter of fact in the chris

[00:30:18] Ochoa case ronnie earl back in 2001

[00:30:22] Agreed to relief ronnie earl the legendary long-time da of travis county

[00:30:27] Uh who I think everybody respects agreed to relief in the chris. Ochoa case

[00:30:32] But you know it it did not become

[00:30:36] You know as in conviction integrity units did not become

[00:30:41] Really as ubiquitous

[00:30:44] Uh until we did it successfully in dallas for those four years. I was there 2007 to 2011

[00:30:51] And so now it's not uncommon for a district attorney's office to say, you know

[00:30:55] When the code of criminal procedure says it is the duty of the prosecuting authority to do justice and not just seek convictions

[00:31:04] More and more offices are taking that seriously now many are not I can tell you from personal experience many are not

[00:31:10] but more and more are

[00:31:11] Our our recent exoneration out of bear county with melvin quinney is an example of that and that's bear county

[00:31:18] It depends on the county in the in the conviction integrity unit

[00:31:22] But what travis county is doing in this case has been going on for a long time now

[00:31:28] And it's even in travis county under ronnie earl and it's there's nothing really

[00:31:34] Unusual about the way they're handling this case

[00:31:37] And in fact, it's just indication that they take their ethical duty to seek justice very very seriously

[00:31:45] I will say

[00:31:46] an add to this I think

[00:31:49] After practicing in travis for 20 years, there's an interesting kind of

[00:31:55] thing going on that I think is influencing all of this right now because the the da's office is

[00:32:01] Very strident about progressive criminal justice reform and there's been a lot of pushback from police unions specifically in austin

[00:32:09] And really pro-law enforcement groups. And I mean we just went through an election here and that was

[00:32:15] I got flyers every day every single person in my neighborhood did it was

[00:32:20] intense and I think that that

[00:32:23] unfortunately because you know

[00:32:26] again, I think the da's office is doing what

[00:32:29] an ethical da's office would do in this circumstance, but I think the

[00:32:33] underlying relationship right now with law enforcement in austin and this kind of push and pull is going on

[00:32:42] I think has has

[00:32:44] hindered maybe

[00:32:46] Sailing this through as easily as it should based on the evidence

[00:32:50] I think I think in a case where we didn't have all this other all these other things going on in town

[00:32:57] That influenced that I think it would just be so obvious. I

[00:33:02] I don't know but I think that that has played a little bit of a factor

[00:33:06] You know because travis county has started a conviction integrity unit, but you know, we've we've had a few before, you know yogurt shop

[00:33:13] It was was one that came to mind in 92, you know springsteen. This was in that era

[00:33:18] In the it ironically springsteen's attorney joe sawyer represents bobby harrell who's on board

[00:33:25] Obviously now with exonerating causey and his own

[00:33:29] you know in a sense that he's always maintained but

[00:33:33] it

[00:33:34] We've seen it in travis, but you know, it's a one-party town

[00:33:37] There's not a lot of push and pull in a lot of elections

[00:33:40] And so things don't get aired out that often is the best way that I can say it

[00:33:45] And so other than you know that and obviously the the things that mike's brought up

[00:33:51] It has been more limited and I think that

[00:33:55] Can pay as far as like the press that it's gotten and I think the understanding in the courthouse

[00:33:59] And so I just think that

[00:34:01] It's taken a minute to get everybody on board to understand

[00:34:05] How

[00:34:06] Clear the evidence is in this case

[00:34:09] And and the tension between the police unions and the and a progressive da is not unique to travis county

[00:34:16] As i'm sure you are aware. I mean the probably the quintessential example that I know something about

[00:34:22] I mean every case is different is what's you know been going on in philadelphia

[00:34:26] one thing that the

[00:34:28] Current administration as I understand in travis county has been doing

[00:34:33] is

[00:34:34] prosecuting police officers who

[00:34:37] Frankly murder people and that's not popular with the police unions, you know, so that really doesn't

[00:34:44] even bear on what the conviction integrity unit is doing it just

[00:34:48] adds to the general animosity

[00:34:51] And uh, I mean amber you want to give an example of some of the flyers you you saw

[00:34:56] I think I got 23 in a period of like 30 days that would say things like jose garza is releasing rapists and murderers

[00:35:04] to our community to attack our children and

[00:35:08] And they were all apa that the union did most of it

[00:35:11] And I mean it was I got I think I counted 15 texts

[00:35:15] We were getting robo calls. It was the most it was the most intense barrage i've seen in a long time

[00:35:21] It was so intense though. It turned off travis county voters and they voted for jose garza by 70

[00:35:27] So even though his opponent outspent him substantially

[00:35:32] Yeah, like I think jeremy spent 1.2 million I think because they had like 200 or something crazy

[00:35:38] So it was it was pretty disproportionate, but I think it causes some misinformation

[00:35:44] To get out there and I think that you know again this this case is so clear and so

[00:35:50] Overwhelming it's been I guess a little uh unfortunate that I think some local politics have

[00:35:57] prevented it from

[00:35:59] I guess being as clear as it should be

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[00:37:07] I'm i'm curious about you know, just more on the process side of things, you know once

[00:37:13] Once your team gets this reach out from from travis county and there's sort of like okay

[00:37:19] They're looking into it too now

[00:37:22] Um, what's the process going forward then like how do you then approach a case like that where you do have the prosecutor's office saying

[00:37:29] perhaps that

[00:37:31] they also feel

[00:37:32] Um, like there's been an issue here and sort of how do you unpack that? How do both sides kind of work?

[00:37:38] That at that point

[00:37:40] I'm happy to answer that. I think it's really an ebb and flow like we have a job to do

[00:37:44] We have a client their client is justice, right? But we have an investigation

[00:37:49] To do ourselves we have an application to file

[00:37:52] It really is I think the only real difference is the like extent of the cooperation

[00:37:58] So when we were going and interviewing witnesses, I had a da's office investigator with me

[00:38:03] So where maybe in other cases where there isn't that cooperation?

[00:38:08] We're interviewing witnesses by ourselves with our own investigator. So if anything, um, it's really I think this set

[00:38:14] Maybe for people who are skeptical of our work

[00:38:17] You have the government looking over my shoulder while i'm talking to people and being involved to the extent. They want to be involved

[00:38:23] um again, I think the other

[00:38:25] Difference is really just a sharing of information. But like mike and amber talked about that's an ethical obligation

[00:38:32] It's a statutory obligation. It's a constitutional obligation. So that's really not new otherwise

[00:38:38] So I think it's not adversarial

[00:38:40] So you're not having to

[00:38:43] Think strategically about well if the other side knows this how am I gonna?

[00:38:48] You know, how am I going to go lose because somebody is just trying to fight with me for the sake of winning

[00:38:54] Not for the right outcome and I I think that's really the only difference

[00:38:58] Otherwise, I mean we all are doing our work. We're all trying to find the truth

[00:39:03] And I just think when you take the adversarial component out of it

[00:39:07] It's really just designed to make communication smoother more transparent

[00:39:11] And the path to hopefully making something wrong right faster

[00:39:16] And then just to back up to so our listeners understand what was it that made the travis county prosecutor's office say hey

[00:39:24] like we need to

[00:39:26] Act upon this. Um, you mentioned the brady issue. Um, if you could go into more detail about

[00:39:31] Sort of the the kind of moment that they felt that they needed to give this a second look

[00:39:37] So, um a lot of the disclosures that we received were for records that are confidential by statute

[00:39:44] And so I have to be careful because those still will have to remain protected and spoken about appropriately

[00:39:50] But I think I can speak generally and it was the trial attorney in this case

[00:39:55] was so

[00:39:57] diligent and

[00:39:58] Tried so hard to get information about what he believed must have been

[00:40:05] Information about apd homicide doing what he knew his client was saying was happening

[00:40:11] And I think by our account he asked seven different times seven different ways

[00:40:16] Got a court order and was still told, you know

[00:40:20] Either you're not getting it either by actual words or by silence meaning something non-responsive

[00:40:26] And I think they felt their obligation was triggered. I don't speak for them

[00:40:30] But my understanding is there was a court order in place that trial counsel got that was not properly responded to

[00:40:38] and they came into

[00:40:40] knowledge and possession of

[00:40:43] Information and records that were directly responsive to the trial court's order

[00:40:47] That were not produced and that would have been otherwise very consistent with mr

[00:40:53] Kazi's account of his interrogation

[00:40:55] and showed a knowing pattern in practice

[00:40:59] Of what this group of homicide detectives was doing to murder suspects

[00:41:04] And so I think it was the totality of those circumstances

[00:41:09] and that definitely was

[00:41:11] My memory is what got the district attorney on board with a new

[00:41:14] trial for mr. Kazi

[00:41:16] But for them agreeing to actual innocence that took a while

[00:41:20] And it really wasn't until we identified a new witness from a note in the files they disclosed

[00:41:25] It was you know handwritten just a single sheet of paper

[00:41:29] and their investigator was able to track down this witness and she was able to

[00:41:34] You know, we brought her in for deposition and she was able to basically contradict the written statement that mr

[00:41:39] Kazi had, you know allegedly given

[00:41:42] That incriminated him because she was able to give it a count that was different

[00:41:46] And it really that you know, mr. Kazi's statement talks about moving the car after murdering anita

[00:41:52] Well, she says I was there that night and I helped my ex-boyfriend move that car

[00:41:56] I recognize it from this photograph both us and the district attorney, you know again

[00:42:00] I don't want to speak for them

[00:42:01] But at that moment realized that both these accounts can't be true

[00:42:04] They can't both have moved the car from the apartment to from the apartment where Anita was murdered to this other apartment complex

[00:42:11] It's just not possible. So if this witness is to be believed

[00:42:14] And I think we both found her credible the court. I think believe has found her credible

[00:42:18] Then mr. Kazi statement must be false and that's I think the turning point

[00:42:22] For all of us we knew we had evidence of actual innocence in this case

[00:42:28] And then on top of her deposition we corroborated her statement

[00:42:33] And found another witness that she was actually with the night that she goes with the alternate suspect

[00:42:39] To move anita's car and so her statement was able to be corroborated

[00:42:45] Again in the statement she gave just directly contradicted the written statement, which again was the only evidence in this case

[00:42:52] And one of the most fantastical parts about that corroborating evidence

[00:42:56] You know, it's kind of stranger than fiction but it's like why do you remember that night 30 years ago?

[00:43:00] Like how do you why do you have such a clear memory of it?

[00:43:03] And it's like oh it was my birthday. My birthday is august 11th. It's like oh well. Yeah

[00:43:07] Okay, we that's makes it a memorable night for sure. So it's kind of

[00:43:11] Just I guess lucky for mr. Kazi that happens so they have such a clear memory of that night

[00:43:16] And it was yeah and and the really magical

[00:43:19] Part about that was the witness that helped the alternate suspect move the car

[00:43:24] She could place the day in all kinds of ways, but you know couldn't put an actual date on it

[00:43:29] It's 30 years ago. Well the witness that corroborates her that she's just talked about

[00:43:34] The friend that she was with she goes I know exactly

[00:43:38] Why that was and it was my 18th birthday and you know, here's my driver's license with my birthday

[00:43:43] And here's why I remember that birthday so clearly because it was the year I had my first kid and I was pregnant in

[00:43:49] High school and being pregnant in high school makes that year her, you know, very unfortunately memorable and stressful

[00:43:56] And this was my first birthday after that. So my best friend was with me that night

[00:44:00] So of course I remember that because she went to go

[00:44:03] You know

[00:44:03] She left me on my birthday to go help her on and off again boyfriend do this and so

[00:44:08] It was just one of those moments that really did uh kind of feel like a movie and there was just really

[00:44:14] No denying that this is actually what happened and the statement just wasn't true

[00:44:19] one thing I was curious about is just from the perspective of

[00:44:23] I mean, obviously it's not the innocence project of texas's job to solve the case or you know

[00:44:29] Prosecute anybody but it sounds like there's a sort of an alternate suspect and an alternate theory of the crime

[00:44:36] Where mr. Kazi is innocent and perhaps someone else perpetrated this horrible crime against miss byington

[00:44:42] Could you speak to that and um sort of what has come together?

[00:44:46] As far as your own opinions about what happened to anita that night, um

[00:44:52] That makes sense. It does our opinion is that this and I believe what the evidence supports is that this was a single perpetrator

[00:44:59] murder

[00:45:00] And it was a murder that occurred during or at some point, um, whether before or after um a sexual assault

[00:45:09] And not a two-person

[00:45:12] A stranger on stranger drug deal gone wrong with a victim that we know has no drug history

[00:45:18] in a part of town she had no connection to but the alternate suspect did and so

[00:45:23] Um, yes, that's what the evidence supports. This was a single perpetrator murder during which a sexual assault occurred at some point

[00:45:31] well, I also think that the

[00:45:33] Science is so overwhelming. We haven't even talked about that. But I mean it the science is

[00:45:40] Overwhelmingly it's

[00:45:41] Supports what happened and what is consistent with these other witnesses? I mean

[00:45:46] It it just seems at this point

[00:45:50] pretty clear from

[00:45:52] the series of evidence of what occurred could you uh speak to some of the science and sort of how that

[00:45:59] Um backs up the case for um, you know exonerating. Mr. Kazi

[00:46:04] Because chase we are lucky enough with his dna background

[00:46:07] We always do the all right to you bro. You talk about it. You do sciencey stuff and we'll listen. Sure, so

[00:46:14] There's always

[00:46:16] been a semen stain associated with the alternate suspect from

[00:46:20] anita's

[00:46:21] vagina and her underwear

[00:46:23] that was

[00:46:24] Suspected I think by blood typing in the early 90s. It was confirmed in 2000

[00:46:29] with dna, uh traditional str dna analysis

[00:46:33] But that's

[00:46:35] Our new testing has developed quite a few more semen stains

[00:46:38] So there was a semen stain found on the back of her blouse near the bottom hem

[00:46:43] And that's also associated with the alternate suspect

[00:46:46] But oddly there are also three semen stains on her shorts both interior and on the outside of her shorts

[00:46:52] That were mixed mixtures of blood and semen

[00:46:55] all associated with the alternate suspect so this

[00:46:59] You know story and this is this is part of the problem, right when forensic evidence

[00:47:04] Of a consensual sexual encounter and a sexual assault can look similar. Uh, the only difference is, you know, what the

[00:47:11] The survivor's account of it and in this case, we don't have a survivor to tell us what happened

[00:47:15] So when you just look at the evidence of 2000

[00:47:18] Semen in a vagina or underwear looks consistent with the potential sex story that he alleged

[00:47:23] But now when you have semen on the back of her blouse mixed with her blood on her shorts

[00:47:28] It's not quite as clear as if that would be the consensual encounter. He you know testified it was

[00:47:33] And I think that's the evidence amber we're talking about

[00:47:36] They've also had that compared to mr. Kazi's dna. He's excluded from all those stains

[00:47:40] So we have not only associated with the alternate suspect, but we have

[00:47:45] Our client mr. Kazi excluded from it

[00:47:48] and that's

[00:47:49] Dr. Liu talked about how do you prove a confession false and one of those ways you can prove a confession false is proving someone else

[00:47:55] Did it so while we don't have a legal obligation to prove who did this or to prosecute anyone proving an alternate suspect is responsible

[00:48:04] Just like that just like moving the car does prove innocence in some instances

[00:48:08] The alternate suspect in this case just to be clear was the individual who was undisputedly the last person

[00:48:14] Known to be seen with her alive and his account included a consensual sexual encounter

[00:48:20] And so to chase his point about the testing that was done in 2000

[00:48:24] That didn't move the needle at all because

[00:48:28] His story had included a consensual sexual encounter while the testing that we did

[00:48:33] Is inconsistent with a consensual sexual encounter?

[00:48:37] And so that is that's just to explain kind of who the individual we're talking about the fact that again

[00:48:43] It was not in dispute that he was with her seen with her last

[00:48:48] um again, it was why he

[00:48:51] Is interviewed spoken with and his account just had them conveniently separating at a different point in the night

[00:48:59] And him denying going with her to the area where she was found

[00:49:03] He also denied a familiarity with the area in its entirety

[00:49:07] Which was also a part of the newly discovered evidence that we had in the form of the two witnesses

[00:49:11] We just talked about that were able to not just say yeah

[00:49:15] He knew the east side of town but that he was intimately familiar with and that is really where all of the people in his life

[00:49:22] Lived all of the main people in his life lived

[00:49:25] Which he denied at the time you are familiar of of

[00:49:29] What he what this alternate suspect did in 1999

[00:49:33] When by all appearances he appear it appears that he attempted to sexually

[00:49:39] Assault and murder another woman you are familiar with that. Are you not?

[00:49:43] Yes, would you mind speaking more to that that second sort of uh incident I suppose sure so in october of

[00:49:52] 1999 a woman is followed home from an area nightclub where she was a waitress

[00:50:00] And is followed into her home by this alternate suspect. He forces his way in begins to assault her

[00:50:07] She believes that this assault is not just about to be physical but is likely about to be a sexual assault

[00:50:13] And she screams for her life and fortunately her roommate happened to be home and sleeping

[00:50:19] And heard and called 9-1-1 that case went to trial. She testified

[00:50:23] She maintained her story a jury convicted him, uh, not of the felony burglary of a habitation

[00:50:30] With intent to commit assault that he was charged with but a misdemeanor

[00:50:34] Assault and the judge sentenced him to a year in the county jail for that

[00:50:39] And then fast forward we know now that there is a third victim out of harris county

[00:50:44] That also bravely testified at our evidentiary hearing the account is frighteningly similar to what we know about

[00:50:52] What happened to anita what happened to the victim in 1999?

[00:50:56] And then again what's now happened a third time in 2021?

[00:51:00] and so

[00:51:01] We believe that this all shows sadly

[00:51:03] Anita was at least the first or one of the first victims of this individual

[00:51:08] And that he has perpetrated at least again on two women that

[00:51:12] Have at least tried to hold him responsible for what he did to them. Who knows how many more that there may be

[00:51:18] And so I want to ask you one thing and then I want to get into sort of what?

[00:51:21] Sort of the procedural next steps are and sort of how that is going but anita's cousin christina buyington

[00:51:28] Has been unhappy and and feels that uh, mr

[00:51:31] Kazi is guilty or at least has doubts about his innocence

[00:51:35] And has kind of talked about maybe feeling a bit blindsided by the whole process by the da's office like not feeling

[00:51:42] looped in or

[00:51:44] Alerted and I mean the innocence project is here to advocate for their clients, right? Not

[00:51:51] Loop in everybody but I can kind of understand some of the criticism of the da's office in that sense of like

[00:51:57] Kind of letting people know this is happening

[00:51:59] um

[00:51:59] There's just so many competing sort of it feels like viewpoints in in cases like this and it can be hard to kind of get

[00:52:05] Everyone on the same page. I think amber talked about that a bit about how you know, there's a lot of noise in addition

[00:52:12] Politically speaking with you know cop unions having having their say as well

[00:52:17] I guess, you know when when you see some of that criticism or when you sort of think about those alternate perspectives

[00:52:23] As people who do this work. Do you see a way for you know?

[00:52:26] different kind of parties to kind of come together on this and maybe talk about just the evidence and

[00:52:31] Get on the same page or how do you feel about that? I just i'll throw it to you. So first absolutely

[00:52:38] Um, like you said priority number one is our client, right? That's what a lawyer's responsibility is. No question

[00:52:44] She's not our client

[00:52:45] No victim's family is our client, but is a an intention of ours through this process always to provide healing and closure and truth

[00:52:55] Absolutely in every case that is what we want to give to everyone again priority number one is our client

[00:53:00] But a very close second is always going to be everybody who was impacted by this and one thing we

[00:53:08] hoped maybe naively was that the truth

[00:53:12] Actually

[00:53:14] Is consistent with what we always understood to be the family's position historically from the records

[00:53:21] We read that she was not a drug user

[00:53:24] And so a state's theory that said this is a drug deal gone wrong again is just inconsistent with the

[00:53:32] History and account of what is known about their family member and so i'll just say individually that was something

[00:53:39] That just surprised me because I would have thought that there would have been some validation in that like

[00:53:45] We you know, her parents had been telling law enforcement. She's not a drug user

[00:53:49] Why is this theory a theory that you know, she was soliciting drugs and that this all happened about drugs

[00:53:54] So again, perhaps naively I was

[00:53:58] personally optimistic that the truth would help validate

[00:54:02] What the family historically from what we knew had been very adamant about but otherwise just generally speaking

[00:54:09] We understand that digging all of this up is going to be emotional for anybody involved

[00:54:14] And so we're always going to give grace to somebody who is hurting and everybody's hurting

[00:54:21] And everybody our client's wife who lived without him for 30 years

[00:54:27] All of the things he missed out on his mother dying while he was gone

[00:54:31] Everybody is in pain and any way we can try and use this as an opportunity

[00:54:36] Kind of through the pain to hope that truth will be healing is always our intention never anything else

[00:54:43] But what we can't do is we can't let

[00:54:47] somebody's

[00:54:48] Healing process interfere with our quest for the truth no matter how uncomfortable

[00:54:54] That may get at points

[00:54:56] I also think the players and kind of the context of it have played a factor, you know, mr

[00:55:02] Keel, uh, you know was representative of the police union for most of his career who was the original prosecutor and I think represents

[00:55:10] Christina Bynington and so I think there's been

[00:55:14] a lot of push and pull that's kind of involved in local politics, unfortunately because

[00:55:20] for me and listening to what jesse was just saying one of the things that jumps out at me is

[00:55:25] The the accusation that she went with this guy that has a girlfriend had sex in a car

[00:55:31] Consensually while going to get crack which none of that

[00:55:37] Is consistent and quite frankly, I don't know outside of 91

[00:55:41] If you could throw stuff around like that of somebody that didn't have a reputation for any of that in any of whatever of stick

[00:55:47] I mean that kind of misogyny

[00:55:49] Hopefully we are moving forward and not there where you can just throw out something completely inconsistent with a woman's character in life

[00:55:57] And everyone just uses that as the premise I mean, I I think it's hard to

[00:56:03] Accept, I guess that that was so easily accepted, you know in 91 when this went down and it's uh

[00:56:11] I'm hopeful that the family, you know will be able to digest the new evidence that is so

[00:56:18] overwhelming and so clear and quite frankly

[00:56:22] consistent

[00:56:23] with the person that

[00:56:25] I believe

[00:56:26] You know anita bianco seemed to be at the time, you know who just a straight-up victim

[00:56:32] Who wasn't going to get crack and and and?

[00:56:36] Didn't get involved in a drug deal gone wrong after having sex with a random man with a girlfriend in a car. I mean

[00:56:44] It just the whole scenario seems like something

[00:56:48] Hopefully we've moved past of uh, I guess if this case came in my door today

[00:56:52] I can't even imagine it getting indicted with the evidence that we now like it would never have

[00:56:58] because the evidence is so overwhelming to one side and so

[00:57:02] I do think it's unfortunate the local politics have

[00:57:05] somehow prevented

[00:57:07] You know christina binington and some of the other family to getting

[00:57:11] I feel like the information

[00:57:13] That would be consistent with the person they know and actually get them some closure

[00:57:17] I I still hope that they get there. It seems like it would behoove everyone

[00:57:23] Yes, that is absolutely our hope that maybe at the end of this everybody can come around

[00:57:28] accept what is undisputedly the truth and start to heal because he

[00:57:34] The anger and rage about something that's just not true. You know, that's not good for anybody

[00:57:40] I wanted to ask you in terms of next steps or mr. Kazi's case. What what are we looking at going forward?

[00:57:47] It's my understanding that there may be a final hearing on april 26th

[00:57:51] Please correct me if i'm wrong on that. What does that look like? And what are your hopes for the outcome in this?

[00:57:56] So april 26 you are correct is going to be final argument at which time we're going to ask

[00:58:02] the judge

[00:58:04] To find that andre is actually innocent because he is

[00:58:08] And make a recommendation to the court of criminal appeals

[00:58:12] That he be granted that relief that the court of criminal appeals find that he is actually innocent

[00:58:17] The way that that procedure really happens because I know you were kind of interested in the paperwork part after we argue

[00:58:23] We will prepare a document called findings of fact and conclusions of law

[00:58:27] That we will ask the judge to sign she can sign our copy. She can make her own copy

[00:58:33] But ultimately the important part to us is that she ultimately make again that recommendation of relief that he be found actually innocent

[00:58:41] And then from there, we have a couple more sets of paperwork that we have to do

[00:58:45] This is our most important request for relief

[00:58:48] So that's why we're doing a final argument on the 26th

[00:58:51] But we'll have a couple other claims to wrap up paperwork wise

[00:58:54] And then at the end what happens procedurally is all of the work that we've done transcripts exhibits

[00:59:00] findings of fact and conclusions of law our

[00:59:03] Application for writ of habeas corpus all of that is put together in a big old

[00:59:08] Stack of stuff from the clerk of the court and it's sent up to the court of criminal appeals

[00:59:13] And then we bite our nails and we wait to see if they do what we're asking them to do

[00:59:20] And then again between then and now we'll find out

[00:59:22] If the judge is going to make that recommendation of relief on actual innocence or not

[00:59:27] Wanted to open it up to everybody. I'm just curious if you could maybe all go around and just you know

[00:59:33] Speak to what it's like to work on a case like this what it means to you personally, you know

[00:59:37] kind of doing this work, I imagine it can be

[00:59:40] Pretty heavy at times and so i'd love to kind of hear from each of you and then

[00:59:44] I'll open it up after that just to you know

[00:59:46] See if there's anything that we didn't cover that you think it's important for folks to understand about this case

[00:59:50] Or just the work you do in general

[00:59:53] It's been amazing. You know, I do trial work. So, you know, I i'm in sales warranties like these guys and

[01:00:02] so it's been really

[01:00:03] I don't know fascinating for me kind of looking at it through the appellate lens and through

[01:00:08] You know looking at it in reverse backwards because I look at things from the other way

[01:00:13] of how I would approach a case, but it's been uh

[01:00:17] It's just been so

[01:00:20] Fascinating and I am into how thorough they are. I mean you really do get to

[01:00:26] Hindsight really is 2020. I think that's what i've taken out of it. I mean

[01:00:31] What you can do looking back at it, you know what the innocence project can do

[01:00:35] In retrospect as far as looking back and shedding light is

[01:00:39] It's been extraordinary. So i'm in i'm in for anything. They'll let me ride along on

[01:00:45] everything

[01:00:47] For me, so this is you know, i'm still a young attorney just less than two years out from passing the bar here in texas

[01:00:53] But coming from a scientific background, right? I was used to giving objective evidence of looking for the truth

[01:00:59] and that's why it's been such a good fit here at the innocence project because

[01:01:02] really those

[01:01:04] Or that perspective is the same. We're looking for objective evidence. We're looking for the truth

[01:01:08] And when that all aligns we have a great case

[01:01:11] And what I love about this more than being at the witness stand is the impact you get to have

[01:01:15] Not only in a courtroom. I think it's more impactful to be at the council table in the witness stand

[01:01:19] But actually in these people's lives

[01:01:22] To be there for andre and his wife, um, you know to walk through it with them

[01:01:27] Uh, it's just it's it's amazing. It's it's so powerful

[01:01:29] Um, i'm so grateful that they let me you know stand in with them and they're the ones who've lived through all this so it's been

[01:01:35] uh, you know devastating to to see kind of the collateral consequences of this but it's also been

[01:01:41] It's amazing work to be a part of so i'm glad to be here doing it

[01:01:46] Mike what about for you? You've only been doing it 105 years

[01:01:49] Not that long

[01:01:50] you know

[01:01:53] Andre and his his wife delanda are wonderful people

[01:01:56] and uh

[01:01:58] You know and and it really is

[01:02:02] I mean, it really is moving how they have stuck together through all of this for 30 years or longer

[01:02:08] and

[01:02:09] You know what happened

[01:02:11] Back in the trial in 2002 and the invest so-called investigation leading up to that trial, etc

[01:02:19] Was tragic it it's it's

[01:02:22] It's a horrible tragedy and and an affront to justice

[01:02:27] You know that uh, andre an innocent man a peaceful man

[01:02:33] Got convicted of a murder. He had nothing to do with and had to serve all of this time

[01:02:39] Missing out on his life for a murder. He had nothing to do with while the actual perpetrator

[01:02:45] Skated but fortunately our system does provide

[01:02:50] for a procedure

[01:02:52] to correct those injustices

[01:02:56] And and I I really

[01:02:58] enjoy

[01:02:59] Working on correcting

[01:03:01] Those abject injustices those profound injustices

[01:03:05] And that's what this case has been

[01:03:07] And the satisfaction I get from it are the victories we get

[01:03:12] Uh, we don't always win

[01:03:14] And it's it's it's profoundly disappointing when we don't

[01:03:18] but we we hope we can prevail on this and uh

[01:03:22] It to me correcting those profound injustices of the past

[01:03:27] is

[01:03:28] Is rewarding. I mean mike, I think hit it right on the head one of the greatest memories

[01:03:33] I have of the past couple years

[01:03:36] The first was bringing andre his first set of findings saying he was going to get a new trial brought that to his birthday to surprise

[01:03:43] him

[01:03:44] um and watching him cry

[01:03:47] It was a lot and then

[01:03:48] Watching him and delanda like renew their vows like

[01:03:52] um

[01:03:54] like giving somebody their life back it's

[01:03:57] so nice, um

[01:03:58] Somebody who just like did not deserve to have this happen to him

[01:04:02] He is the kindest man

[01:04:05] the

[01:04:06] gentlest like he is just

[01:04:09] It's so terrible that he

[01:04:11] Had to go through this. So trying to give him his life back is really nice

[01:04:16] We just want to say thank you all so much for taking the time to speak to us and speak to your experiences and

[01:04:22] Open up about what this case has meant to you. I wanted to

[01:04:27] Throw it to you anything. We didn't ask about I know it's there's a lot

[01:04:30] I'm sure we didn't touch upon but any any big points that you think would be important for our audience's understanding

[01:04:36] Just anything else you wanted to say, so i'll just open it up to you. I'll just say

[01:04:40] jump in and say I

[01:04:43] I can't think about anything but getting this across the finish line

[01:04:46] There is only one right result in this based on what every these people have worked on for years. It is so overwhelming

[01:04:55] I am

[01:04:56] So hopeful that the team will be able to make this as clear as it is

[01:05:03] From our viewpoint to everyone else including the family including the court everyone because this is an actual exoneration

[01:05:10] absolutely

[01:05:13] We wish to sincerely thank the innocence project of texas team for sharing their insights and experiences with us

[01:05:20] Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet

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