The Murder of Brianna Ghey

[00:00:00] Content Warning This episode contains discussion of the murder of a child. This episode also contains discussion of transphobia, including some pretty horrifying transphobic and sexualized language directed at a child. It also includes profanity. The footage from the bus stop might seem unremarkable.

[00:00:23] Two teenagers, a boy and a girl, skulk about near a blue bus shelter. They seem to be waiting. The girl wears a red top and black pants. The boy is clad in dark colors. Then, after a bus pulls up, another girl emerges into the frame.

[00:00:43] Her white hoodie is bright against the gray, wintry backdrop. The two girls seem to speak for a moment. Then, the girl in white turns to face the boy. Together, all three walk off.

[00:00:56] One would be forgiven for assuming that this scene might be simply a normal interaction between three teenagers. A trio of friends meeting up for a day at Kulcheth linear park in Warrington, England. I sincerely wish that had been true, but unfortunately it wasn't the case here.

[00:01:14] This footage in fact captured something far more sinister. Two young killers and the girl they had become obsessed with. A girl they had promised to destroy for no reason. It shows some of the final moments of a young girl's life. A brilliant life so brutally snuffed out.

[00:01:34] A devastating tragedy for her family and friends. It was also a tragedy for the transgender community both in the United Kingdom and worldwide. This loss represents a specific kind of anguish for them.

[00:01:49] Because ultimately, this murder was not only about the tragedy of a wonderful young woman taken too soon. It is also indicative of the kind of betrayal and violence and simmering hatred that an already vulnerable community must be on guard for. The bus stop footage was from February 11th, 2023.

[00:02:10] The girl in white was Brianna Jai. Brianna was only 16 on that winter's day. She lived in Birchwood, Cheshire, England. Like many girls her age, she loved the color pink and doing makeup and playing online games. Her TikTok account depicted her fun and silly side.

[00:02:30] But she reportedly struggled with anxiety and being bullied. Brianna was a bright light and a source of joy to her family and friends. We should also note that she was trans. The evidence indicates that she was stalked, lured and brutally murdered. In part because of who she was.

[00:02:51] Today we'll be talking about Brianna and her case. We'll be discussing her killers and their motivations. We'll be talking to Jessica Cash. She's a true crime researcher as well as a trans woman living in the United Kingdom

[00:03:06] who can speak to both the case as well as its social and political context. She's also awesome. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:20] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is The Murder of Brianna Jai. To start off with Jessica, can you just tell us a bit about Brianna Jai and who she was?

[00:04:22] Brianna Jai was a 16 year old transgender girl from Kalshith, which is a village near Wellington in the northeast of England. It's halfway between Manchester and Liverpool. Brianna had been... It's unclear how long she'd been out as a transgender girl

[00:04:42] but she was living under the name Brianna and having accepted as that at school. And also, this is something that makes me really sad actually that I didn't see her on social media before because she made these lovely tiktoks.

[00:05:00] She had a following of 30,000 people and she made these engaging and funny tiktoks and people were devastated like the whole wider online community after what happened. But she wasn't... And I know you know this, but she wasn't just the victim.

[00:05:21] She had a life ahead of her that could and should have been really wonderful. She wanted to be a beauty therapist and in the pictures that have been shared with her we know that she struggled with anxiety and had faced abuse online,

[00:05:40] at the very least online, I'm sure in person as well because that's unfortunately what transgender people face a lot of the time. But she looked so happy and as someone who tried to transition when I was 16 it's so sad what happened to her

[00:06:02] but her family was so supportive and it's so sad that she didn't have the life that she deserved to have. She really seems like an extraordinary young woman reading about her, reading about what her friends and her family were saying about her.

[00:06:18] She just seemed like she really was a very much a bright light in a lot of people's lives and I think as you said social media people found her so engaging and enjoyed her content. It's incredibly sad.

[00:06:32] What can you tell us about the circumstances leading up to her murder? This is where unfortunately we kind of have to talk a little bit about the defendants. About the killers. The chances are I'll switch between calling them girl X and boy Y

[00:06:46] because that's how they were referred to during the trial because they are children but their names are Scarlett Jenkinson and Eddie Ratcliffe. Scarlett Jenkinson was moved to Brianna School in September 2022 after she gave a younger child a 13 year old child, a cannabis edible

[00:07:05] and that child got extremely ill and so she was moved to Brianna School and it appears that the head teacher of the school was not informed of that so there are serious safeguarding questions to be asked.

[00:07:17] Jenkinson made friends with Brianna in kind of a special unit the school had for children who were struggling with special educational needs or with anxiety etc and she made friends with Brianna and I say made friends with despite the fact that of what happened because

[00:07:36] it does appear that initially like Jenkinson seems to genuinely like Brianna it developed into an obsession, a very dangerous obsession so this was in kind of late 2022 and Jenkinson had been friends with Ratcliffe for a number of years I think about four years

[00:07:59] and she began texting Ratcliffe about this girl that she met said I'm sort of obsessed with this girl she's so different from everyone I know and then she used my language but she said but she has a dick lol and Ratcliffe replied again, apologies

[00:08:22] is it a Fenboy or a Tranny? and this is where we kind of they start to focus on Brianna Ratcliffe in particular consistently expressing disgust and saying some awful things about Brianna and during this kind of period Jenkinson comes up with what's been called a kill list

[00:08:49] and it was a list of five or six children that she wanted to kill and on this list there was two people who had been mean to her boyfriend a child who was rumoured to be a nonx which is a paedophile

[00:09:07] and someone who had nearly got her expelled is what she said and the only one on this kill list the only potential victim on this kill list who didn't have, there was no motive listed there was no reason for dislike, the only one was Brianna

[00:09:25] and they initially came up with a plan to kill one of the boys on the list Jenkinson set up a fake Instagram account and started messaging him trying to arrange a meet but he didn't take the bait so they switched their attentions to trying to kill Brianna

[00:09:46] throughout this time Jenkinson is raising this with Ratcliffe she's the one who introduced the idea of murder and she talked about watching torture videos on the dark web and that was demonstrated to be the case when the police looked on her phone

[00:10:03] they found the tall browser which is how you access the dark web and this girl is 15, Ratcliffe is 15 and so the fact that she was watching certain horror films is not age appropriate but she was going far further and watching videos of actual torture

[00:10:24] and Ratcliffe's defence pointed out that he didn't introduce the idea it was her idea, she's the driving force and I think that's broadly true but Ratcliffe didn't just go along with it passively or other than very briefly initially he sort of said

[00:10:50] I'll try and think about other things but he very quickly changed his tune and went along with it and he suggested that as well as torture videos Jenkinson might enjoy watching someone die by hanging so actual escalation, encouraging that escalation

[00:11:12] a large part of the criminal case was built on the messages exchanged between them The events of February 11th 2023 when Brianna was unfortunately murdered can you talk us through what happened that day and sort of take us through the actual killing? On February 11th 2023

[00:11:32] Charlotte Jenkinson arranged to meet Brianna with Ratcliffe in Kulchis and they were going to go to the park which was called Linear Park and they met Brianna off the bus Brianna had been suffering with anxiety very significantly and she texted her mum on the bus and said

[00:11:55] I'm on the bus on my own and I'm scared and her mum replied just saying how proud she was of her for going out that day but unfortunately when Brianna's phone was retrieved the message was unread so it doesn't seem that she saw it which is horrible

[00:12:14] So one of the things that Jenkinson used to get Brianna to come was a suggestion that they were going to pick up some cocaine and to kind of establish this pretence Jenkinson which is kind of clearly her modus operandi

[00:12:33] set up a fake Instagram account of a drug dealer and pretended to be messaging him and actually the first person to notice that something wasn't right was Brianna she texted one of her friends and said X is so weird lol, Scarlett is so weird lol

[00:12:49] I think she's pretending to be talking to a drug dealer but obviously no one would expect the pretence of your childish and odd friend to be behind this kind of this plan No, you would think like oh she's trying to seem cool

[00:13:09] which is connected with this coke dealer and maybe we can talk about it afterwards and she was absolutely a kind of... Jenkinson was widely regarded as a fantasist by a lot of people and at the park and this is where events are disputed between Jenkinson and Ratcliffe

[00:13:33] but we know that at least Ratcliffe brought a knife with him a large hunting knife which he had bought a few weeks prior and Brianna was stabbed with that knife the account at trial that Jenkinson gave was that she had gone to stretch her legs

[00:13:55] and when she came back oh no, Eddie stabbed Brianna and that she went over to check that Brianna was okay and the account that Ratcliffe gave was that he had turned round to urinate against the tree and when he came back oh no, Scarlet stabbed Brianna

[00:14:16] he went over to check that Brianna was okay but they were seen by a dog walker she saw one of them bend down to check what she initially thought was their dog and then they saw she was approaching and they both ran away together

[00:14:36] and they were caught on CCTV and dashcam and ring doorbells running away together and using saliva to wash to kind of wipe it off their hands and you can see in some of the footage which thankfully isn't out the day

[00:14:55] there was a detest when he caught about it that their hands were red with blood so yeah, that was what they did and they went home but after stabbing Brianna and oh, I should mention at this point Jenkinson's given at least three accounts since being convicted

[00:15:21] in which in two of them she confessed and said that she stabbed Brianna a number of times and Ratcliffe was the first person to stab Brianna but then said he couldn't finish it and she joined in she's given that account I think three times at least with variations

[00:15:38] and I almost, not quite but almost feel sorry for the defence lawyer he had to stand up and say this is very unusual to represent a client this is the sentencing to represent a client who has admitted their guilt after conviction but despite these accounts

[00:15:54] our submission today is that actually it was all him and so that's, you know unsurprisingly the judge said in her sentencing I can't believe the word that Jenkinson says so it seems very likely and it was pretty clear from the evidence of trial that both defendants

[00:16:13] both of the convicted stabbed Brianna either after or shortly before she was stabbed Brianna sent, that the message was sent from Brianna's phone to Jenkinson saying where are you and the prosecution's case was that after the stabbing Jenkinson picked up Brianna's phone

[00:16:31] and sent that message to give herself an alibi not to give Ratcliffe an alibi obviously but to give herself an alibi and then she dropped the phone down a kind of small drain where it was subsequently recovered so it was very kind of calculating on Jenkinson's part

[00:16:51] in a way that Ratcliffe is less calculating but just as culpable and then after getting home they exchanged messages with each other not really understanding the technology because they would send messages in which they talked about essentially implicating themselves presumably trying to delete those and then other messages

[00:17:15] saying things like oh my goodness someone's been stabbed in linear park holy shit, you know, things like that and Jenkinson also sent articles about the murder to her friends and that continued for a number of days she posted a tribute to Brianna on her Instagram page

[00:17:35] with this beautiful picture of Brianna where she's saying she looks so happy and saying things like it is horrific what was done to you you were the best friend I could have wished for and it's just that kind of calculating cold behaviour at the age of 15 is terrifying

[00:17:54] it's really genuine and scary yes it's shocking and just the two-facedness of having all these conversations where such disgusting and dehumanising language is used about a young woman who's supposed to be your friend it's really reading some of that is actually it's chilling and really upsetting

[00:18:21] and to skip back in time just to tad this was not their first this was unfortunately where they killed Brianna but this was not their first attempt on her life I hated that, right? No, absolutely not so it was Jenkinson's third attempt to kill Brianna

[00:18:39] and it was the two of them's second attempts together so there was the first attempt which we don't have a precise date for but we think it was in January when Jenkinson we know that she sent a load of pictures of Ivor Profan, pain killers to Ratcliffe

[00:18:59] and said she was going to try and poison Brianna and she denied this entirely trial and said they were taking pills to see what they could get high on but for the record kids taking Ivor Profan is not going to get you high

[00:19:15] and this was demonstrated to be to be false and Esther Jai, Brianna's mother who is just a wonderful woman but she testified and said that around the time that Jenkinson sent this picture Brianna was really ill one day she was on her bed screaming in pain

[00:19:38] and clutching her stomach and initially Esther heard her crying from downstairs and thought that Brianna might have self-harmed that was how horrifying horrifying it was to hear her crying out like that and went up to her and when she saw her she thought

[00:19:57] she might have appendicitis but she was sick and the vomit looked like fair water with what she thought were red crepe skins in it and the picture that Jenkinson had sent was of red tablets and that's one of the things that Jenkinson has admitted

[00:20:18] since trial that she tried to kill Brianna on that occasion and after doing that she told Ratcliffe that it hadn't worked that Brianna had survived this attempt and Ratcliffe's response this is Ratcliffe who the defence says less culpable is less sadistic he suggested oh

[00:20:40] why don't you look up other methods of poisoning and we know from his internet history that he googled them himself so this is again less calculating but just as culpable and then the second attempt or the first attempt they made together

[00:20:56] they made a plan to meet Brianna on January the 28th and it's been slightly unclear from what I've read of the coverage whether or not Ratcliffe brought his knife that day but it seems very likely that he did

[00:21:12] I can't be 100% sure but it seems likely that he did and Brianna thankfully tried to kill her because she wasn't able to go and so the two of them met up at the place where they had planned to meet up which is written in Jenkinson's kill plan

[00:21:28] I can give more detail on that but they met up where they were planning to meet up they went to linear park Jenkinson filmed Ratcliffe near what became subsequently the crime scene and then they went home and after this failed attempt and after this failed attempt

[00:21:55] Jenkinson was messaging Ratcliffe saying how frustrated she was she was saying I just want her to die I want to see the pain and suffering in her eyes and Ratcliffe replies again language I'm sorry Ratcliffe replies I just wanted to see how big its dick was

[00:22:18] and yeah vile just vile and on the 11th sadly Brianna didn't meet him that day and they did what they had wanted to do it's absolutely horrific I wanted to ask for all the calculations things seem to fall apart pretty quickly they're spotted by a dog walker

[00:22:46] they're on CCTV footage digital evidence how exactly did police run them down and how quickly did that happen it happened very very quickly so I think it was the day after around 5pm Jenkinson's mother phoned the police

[00:23:04] to say that her daughter had been with Brianna in the park on the day and one of Jenkinson's various attempted alibis and she even messaged Brianna's phone knowing that Brianna was dead of course saying why did you ditch us to meet that boy from Manchester

[00:23:24] and told the police that she'd gone off with this lad but there was no evidence that that had happened and so they were very quickly able to place them at the scene and then Jenkinson's story that she gave on the call didn't add up they knew that Brianna

[00:23:45] hadn't met someone else there was no evidence of it and when so they were arrested simultaneously and as they're arrested Jenkinson says why am I a suspect is it because I'm the last person to see her which that's why you ask for a lawyer

[00:24:06] because if you're saying I was the last person to see her I see what you mean is the last known but it's not a good look and Ratcliffe's response was I can explain and immediately in his interview he started he said it was all her and Jenkinson

[00:24:27] tried the boy from Manchester line and then started trying to blame Ratcliffe subsequently I think actually that may not have been until trial that version of her story came out but there was a very quickly kind of he didn't offer a no comment interview

[00:24:45] until around halfway through the interview and so in the UK we have less of a I say in the UK we've got different legal systems in certain parts so in England and Wales we don't we have the right to silence

[00:25:00] but it's less concrete than it is in the US please correct me if I'm wrong Kevin because as an attorney but in the US what I'm studying is you cannot make an inference from a defendants no commenting in an interview or from not testifying

[00:25:15] in the UK part of our caution they give you a caution when you're arrested the equivalent of Miranda rights I suppose and they say anything you say will be used evidence against you it may harm your defence

[00:25:30] if you do not mention now something on which you laid to rely on court so if you don't say things in your interview then try and use them the jury is allowed to make an inference from that so which probably explains why they both testified

[00:25:48] disastrously but they give these interviews but if you no comment for the second half of your interview when the questions get difficult possibly more I think that's certainly more downing than giving no comment the whole time why was blood found

[00:26:06] I don't know if they did the testing it was confirmed to be Breanna's blood I don't know if they knew that at the time but they said why was blood found on the knife in your wardrobe and he suddenly says no comment

[00:26:18] solicitor asks for a break then when the officers come back it's consistently no comment I believe she may have no comment at some point but she tried to stick to the boy from Manchester story and yeah it fell apart incredibly quickly

[00:26:37] and for someone who was obsessed with serial killers this is Jenkinson has notes detailing various crimes of serial killers and not in a true crime research way let's get that out of the way this is someone who is idolising which should remain as for example and did that

[00:27:01] it is surprising but one of the things she said to Ratcliffe after the murder was are you worried about getting caught he says probably and she says don't be the police here or shite well it weren't two shites in this case

[00:27:16] to be crude they got them very quickly some issues with some of the things the police said they inferred that it wasn't a hate crime which the Crown Prosecution Service disagreed with but they said it was a targeted attack which it was they identified a victim premeditated

[00:27:37] and killed her but they fell apart very quickly and they would have been caught anyway but thank goodness for Scarlett Jenkinson's mother burning the police and helping it to get quickly and for all the criticisms that people and questions how didn't they know

[00:28:04] I don't want to I'm steering clear of that with Scarlett Jenkinson's mother and her family because they put out a statement which is really unusual and in that statement they say we agree with the verdict, we agree with the sentence

[00:28:19] and we agree with the decision to name Scarlett which is very unusual and Esther Gie has said repeatedly please don't vilify these families please don't target these families and I think there are wider questions to be asked societal questions but I'm sure they could have done anything

[00:28:43] but what they did in the aftermath and what Jenkinson's family did in the aftermath and what they've done after the verdict and the sentencing speaks volumes to their genuine regret and sorrow what their daughter did why were the names originally not publicized so because the killers were 15

[00:29:07] and the anonymity orders are automatically in place for children and there was some debate about whether they would be named at all and Mrs Justice Yip decided that she would release their names after the verdicts because essentially the crime was so shocking

[00:29:28] and what they had done was so terrible she said it was in the public interest and she had had I think in 2022 where a minor was convicted of murder she chose not to lift it in that case

[00:29:43] so it shows there is discretion about when it's in the public interest to do so I have feelings about this because there's a big part of me and I've actually kind of posted and I've really gone against what I said because and this is what Brianna's dad said

[00:30:09] her name should be remembered and their name shouldn't and I think that is the only argument really that I would buy for not naming them but I do think it's in the public interest and I think it is in majority of cases where

[00:30:24] even children are convicted of a serious crime I think it's in the public interest to name them but we all know how it is everyone in Kulcheth, everyone in Warrington would have known their names it would not have stayed under wraps

[00:30:42] I'm also curious to jump back to something you were talking about a few minutes ago you said there was some debate is this a hate crime against the trans community or is this a targeted attack on a specific person so I'm curious when does

[00:30:57] this targeted attack against a member of the trans community become a hate crime against the entirety of the community that's a very good question and I think actually in this instance on Scarlett Jenkins' part I don't think it's a hate crime

[00:31:21] I will say there are some things she said which I'll come onto after Ratcliffe I think it's taken into account more in the sentencing but for Eddie Ratcliffe I think this was a hate crime and I don't believe Justice Yip used those words

[00:31:39] Mrs Justice Yip said that Ratcliffe was motivated in part by hostility towards Brianna because of her transgender identity and that's when I think it becomes a hate crime and the Crown Prosecution Service said that their view was that it was a hate crime and that they considered

[00:31:57] the judgement meant that the court agreed so when does it become that I think it's very clear that Ratcliffe hates transgender people and we also know that he said there were things that he would like to do to gay people which Mrs Justice Yip said she wouldn't consider

[00:32:18] because Brianna was trans not gay I have some issues with that because we are the LGBT community there are not many people who have an issue with gay people but are fine with trans people and vice versa there are unfortunately some now

[00:32:36] who don't have an issue with gay people but by and large we come as a package we stick up for each other or we should I mentioned some of the comments that he made I won't repeat those again

[00:32:54] he also said I want to see if it will scream like a man or a girl and in all of his messages he uses the term it and the times when he is escalating is usually not always usually in relation to Brianna and the messages

[00:33:12] so when the day before February 10th he said she is coming tomorrow so I will bring my knife so immediately he wants to attack a transgender person so I think the fact is that his hostility towards trans people

[00:33:33] it is a hate crime it is motivated at least in part by his hatred the fact is they didn't attack anyone else on that kill list or at least Jenkinson would have done but they didn't who did Rackler agree to attack a transgender girl

[00:33:51] so that's when it becomes a hate crime on Jenkinson's part she consistently refers to Brianna with the correct pronouns and there is no suggestions she had a problem with trans people but the comment she has a D. Loll is not respectful at all

[00:34:09] and then when they were talking about the code words they were going to use Jenkinson said for stab her I will say gay again it is a particular choice of words it may mean nothing but also this is indisputable she chose a transphobic accomplice

[00:34:36] she chose someone who hated transgender people so in practice where is the distinction between Jenkinson being transphobic and not being transphobic in practice what happened was she used someone's transphobia to motivate them to commit crime I think that is just a sign of how calculating she is

[00:35:00] but I think it becomes a hate crime when one of the participants is clearly motivated by the hatred of a transgender person because they are transgender I would like to zoom out a bit for a second I wonder if you could just talk about

[00:35:20] the climate in the UK what is it like to be a transgender person in the UK and maybe also address what is this crime meant to the transgender community The climate in the UK is horrible for transgender people it is really nasty and for some background briefly

[00:35:44] in around 2017 there was a reform proposed that would have made it slightly easier or quite a bit easier to get a gender recognition certificate or they are also called a GRC so I don't have to say the whole thing every time

[00:35:59] and the vast majority of us don't have a GRC because they are a pain to get you have to go in front of a panel of doctors and prove that you are trans enough, you have to pay it is a bureaucratic nightmare

[00:36:14] and what they actually give you is quite limited but there was a reform proposed that rather than having to go in front of these doctors you could self-identify and there was a lot of first kicked off about this and a lot of people talking about a supposed threat

[00:36:29] but really that has been a fig leaf for the most hostile socially conservative elements to attract transgender people and to take away rights that we have enjoyed I mean the way I have put it before is we have had these rights in practice but not in theory

[00:36:47] so there was not necessarily a legal basis for us to use certain spaces but we did because of common sense and if you are a trans man and you have a full beard because you have been on testosterone for the last eight years and you know

[00:37:05] it is farcical to say oh well you were born people, you were assigned female at birth oh well in the hospital you are going to go on to the women's ward that is ludicrous, people were essentially able to use the services of the gender they identified as

[00:37:20] in a lot of cases this law was kind of, I don't know if you know but there has been some political turmoil in the UK over the last few years yeah, there was some referendum I didn't pay much attention but we have had various changes of

[00:37:38] Prime Minister and that law reform was canned and it wasn't just enough to say ok we are not going to make your life slightly easier since then we have had attacks on the rights of children to access to access puberty delaying medication

[00:37:56] which is fully reversible and has no long term impact has been used for decades to treat precocious puberty and this was done again supposedly in the service of protecting children and it is an attack on the rights of children to consent to their own medical treatment

[00:38:14] but it is not just about those kind of very particular things the broader climate has become so toxic it is now a routine question for politicians to be asked during an interview do women have penises and this is just surreal, it is so pure

[00:38:41] and ridiculous and the obvious answer is cisgender women do not have penises cisgender women who haven't had surgery do can we please talk about the economy or inflation or something that is affecting people in their day to day lives and this is what is happening

[00:39:02] and on that specific thing today in Parliament Esther Gai was in the chamber and during Prime Minister's questions the actual Prime Minister of the UK made a jive about trans people he accused the Kirstama, the leader of the Labour Party of U-turning on everything

[00:39:23] and he said he is even U-turned on the definition of a woman although that was only 99% of a U-turn which is a reference to his Stama saying that 99% of women don't have penises and Stama was furious he said of all the weeks to say that

[00:39:44] you say it when Rihanna's mother is in the chamber and then Stama was asked if he would apologise he didn't but he paid tribute to Esther Gai who he referred to as Esther Grey now we've all had slips of the tongue but others have done the same since

[00:40:02] it's not a calculated insult but it's not a calculated insult and I think that's why we're talking about the fact that the media coverage of this case as well was fouled traditional news outlets not people who are just nuts on you too were dead naming

[00:40:26] putting out her dead name some people might not know what that means but people will change their name during transition and we refer to that as a dead name because that's not who we are that's not us

[00:40:44] and it is incredibly offensive to refer to someone by their dead name and to give a comparison I suppose obviously with present company don't always use your maiden name I think Hanya or at least some of the time

[00:40:59] it's not the same as referring to someone by their maiden name to do that deliberately would be rude and strange but when if someone takes a married name it's because they love the person they want to see them or want to do that

[00:41:14] not that if they don't do it they don't love them obviously or if they hyphenate and it would be strange to not need to do that but to use a dead name is saying actually changing who you are as a person if you get married

[00:41:29] but when you're trans we're saying that actually that's not us and this is our name now and to not use that there is an insult and yes very shortly after Breanna was murdered it was revealed that she was transgender and I think that was inevitable and

[00:41:47] given the factors in the case around that it's rightly that would come out although ideally I think that is information that should be between the person and the doctor frankly but we're not dealing with anything like an ideal situation but during the aftermath of the murder

[00:42:09] a newspaper, the Daily Mail accessed Breanna's dental records where her name hadn't been updated and they got her dead name and they printed it and the Daily Mail is one of our more right-wing newspapers the Times is a newspaper of record

[00:42:27] as people call it but it is unfortunately got a reputation that it deserved reputation for transphobia over recent years and when the Daily Mail printed that Breanna was trans and printed her dead name the Times updated an article they had put out on their website

[00:42:45] the initial article referred to the murder of a teenage girl and they edited the article to refer to to remove every mention of the word girl they changed it to the murder of a transgender teenager and they printed Breanna's dead name which had been accessed

[00:43:03] in a really horrible and questionably legal way I think is the part of the second guy but certainly unethical and that's just... there was a case a few years ago here that was a serial killer who was targeting sexual workers

[00:43:21] and this is before the term sexual worker was kind of being used as a preferred term and newspapers some newspapers were doing their best and they were referring to the victims as women who worked as prostitutes rather than as prostitutes to put some distance there

[00:43:39] and there was a columnist, a guy called Richard Littlejohn who wrote a column very angry that the newspapers were doing this they weren't women who worked... and there was a comedian Stuart Lee and he does a bit about this thing from Richard Littlejohn

[00:43:54] he says how far will he go for the accurate referencing to dead women is he going to crawl into cradriards in the night chiseling away not someone who worked as a prostitute signed by Richard Littlejohn and then he used the rude word thought Anne you would like that

[00:44:12] and that's how far will these people go for the inaccurate description of a dead child a dead child and what to score some cheap political point over a dead child's body how does that add to the understanding of the case even

[00:44:33] there's no argument for it except cruelty frankly absolutely yeah it's deliberate and calculated cruelty I've seen different reports subsequently and I really hope the later reports were true but there were initial reports that Brianna would have to be buried and given a death certificate in her dead name

[00:44:54] with a male gender marker because she didn't have... one of the few things that GRC is good for she didn't have a GRC and there have been reports since that actually the coroner can make a recommendation that she is buried under her chosen name

[00:45:09] and her correct gender identity the coroner's report was delayed for trial but I truly hope that will be the case but the fact that that was appeared to be the likely outcome was horrible and I think a lot of us found that

[00:45:27] traumatising and that's not in any way to compare what the effect on the wider community to Brianna's family but to see that indignity in death was awful and scary for those of us who don't have gender recognitions to be good, scary for those of us who haven't

[00:45:50] found the time in busy very busy lives to you know ah do I really need to update my birth certificate when is the last time I needed that well it turns out that if they cannot update those markers

[00:46:05] then I know I really need to get some of that stuff sorted but the climate I mean just to kind of touch on hate crimes somewhat and crimes against transgender people because it's important to say then they're not always hate crimes, certainly not worldwide

[00:46:26] but I have been a victim of assaults several times and certainly a victim of harassment on a regular basis and it's very scary when things like this happen and not just in a kind of it could have been me way but it could have been my friends

[00:46:44] could be people that I love and focusing solely on the two colours in this case really lets off society and it really lets off politicians and it lets off a media class who think that pure our questions about genitals are an adequate response to the situation

[00:47:05] we need to actually kind of address the fact that trans people in this society are not being treated with dignity and even before the real kind of kickoff and dispute over what rights we have, we're not treated with dignity then. I mean how is it different

[00:47:26] I mean you can see the spectrum of the really disgusting dehumanizing things that Eddie Ratcliffe was saying and the kind of joking wink wink questions that he is asking in the way that they are talking about a dead child a dead transgender girl and

[00:47:47] like it's not saying that the reporters are going to go do crimes like that but it's saying that they're creating an environment where people are affected by that and their opinions are affected and perhaps they start looking at people transgender people as less than human and possibly

[00:48:05] worthy of attack and that is frightening and the media has a responsibility just to portray trans people as a threat and we've been through this before like stereotypes of gay people and that meant that gay men in particular

[00:48:23] meant that the age of consent was different for many years following decriminalization and now we're seeing the same stereotypes the same tricks about trans people and people talk about drag queens story time do you think it's appropriate for a drag queen to read stories to children

[00:48:41] that's a sexualized performance. No it's not drag queens I perform in jokes sometimes and would I make the jokes I make in my stand up slash drag in front of children no but drag queens story times are someone in a pretty dress

[00:49:02] and make up reading a story to children that might broaden that child's understanding of gender identity and the fact that some people express gender in certain ways, some people have a certain sexuality, a certain identity and that's okay and the portrayal of trans people has been dangerous

[00:49:23] is a constant theme there's also been a trend in the media it's echoed far more by cranks on the internet, this okay groomer when they're talking to a queer person portraying us as predators it's what was done by a particular gay man

[00:49:44] and it is horrible seeing people fall for it again especially since it often seems like these kind of nonsense social issues, otherization of groups seems to often be a ploy to disguise from other serious issues like you said the economy and what's going on with everything around that

[00:50:05] when you don't have a solution to the crisis who can we blame and that's entirely how it feels and I've spoken about the UK in the US you've also seen a massive increase in legislative attempts to outlaw care for trans people and by the way some people

[00:50:26] who I think are generally sensible have concerns about medical treatment for transgender or gender questioning children, I don't agree with them but I think the rational people I can talk to about that issue and who I think you know

[00:50:41] may understand or may change their view at some point but they may not be against it, they just have concerns but the slippery slope is that whose treatment do you come for next and it's transgender adults and Florida has closed 80% of treatment facilities for transgender adults

[00:51:05] there's also a law in Florida that you can be arrested for using the bathroom of your as a gender you identify as if it's different to your gender assigned at birth Florida has a do not travel warning from the human rights campaign

[00:51:20] and so if I visit the US I'm sorry Florida friends but as much as I'd like to see Miami I think I'll have to stay clear but yeah this is very scary and yeah and again I think it's the same thing as motivating talking about trans people

[00:51:38] rather than the issues there because they don't have a solution and that is deeply yeah it's very horrible to be the victim of kind of abating switch frankly like let's talk about something else what about those trans people there's also why the context of murder

[00:51:59] and violence of transgender people I mentioned this kind of briefly a while back and said you know it's not always a hate crime that is true I wouldn't say how often but the fact is that so with these dates between 1st October and 30th September 2022 to 2023 and

[00:52:20] the reason for those dates is that we have a trans day of remembrance in November so it's to kind of use the statistics for that in that period October to September 2022 to 23, 321 trans and gender diverse people around the world were reported murdered now that is certainly

[00:52:41] not the true number certainly more than that because it was gender identity doesn't always get reported but of those 94% were trans women or trans feminine almost half were sexual workers and half whose occasions known are sexual workers those affected by race they'll make up 80%

[00:53:02] so to a certain extent particularly sexual workers often people who are put in a particular situation where that is how money are easier victims and that is one of the things that was said about Brianna she was vulnerable because of her trans status

[00:53:23] and her anxiety and so the unit is not straightforward to say this is a hate crime we're murdered because we're trans being trans plays a role in unfortunately making people vulnerable a lot of the time but there's also kind of frankly there's an issue with

[00:53:46] trans women and women who defend themselves against violence as a case in America I think in the early 2010s of a African American trans woman C.C. McDonald C.C. was in a group of people who were attacked by a gang of white

[00:54:04] racists homophobe's one of whom at least one of them had a swastika tattoo and during this after they were attacked C.C. had a pair of scissors in a handbag and defended herself with scissors and one of the attackers died C.C. was charged with

[00:54:22] murder and ended up having to take a plea deal and I think in the UK we just don't really have the right to self defence we can't parry but in the US you are supposed to have the right to self defence

[00:54:34] and it doesn't seem like that applies when it's women and it doesn't seem like that applies on its trans women yeah different standards for different people I want that you've just been so wonderful to talk to Jessica we really appreciate you kind of

[00:54:48] sharing a shedding of light on this important and very tragic case but also the wider issues around Brianna's case and we wanted to ask you is there anything that we didn't ask you that you wanted to

[00:55:00] mention or you think it's important for people who are listening to understand about the case or about not easy and it wouldn't be easy it wouldn't necessarily be easy even if everyone was sweetness

[00:55:14] and light about it but I'm tired of being made harder by violent rhetoric and exclusionary rhetoric against me and people like me who are trying to live as who we are and this is we just want to live

[00:55:34] we don't want to we want to use the bathroom without being harassed and we want to get in and out as quickly as everyone else it's not a game it is important for us to live as who we are

[00:55:47] and I do believe that the climate around transgender people played a role in the murder of Gryarysh Jai I think it played plays a role in the murder of trans people around the world and just please just remember we're people we're people and we matter

[00:56:09] and think about the impact the words have resting power we're on please check out Jessica's new business just the facts true crime research we'll include a link in our show notes we really appreciate

[00:56:25] her taking the time to share information about this case with us all Jessica is great and we really highly recommend the quality of her research thanks so much for listening to the

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