The Murder of Dana Ireland: Searching for Justice in One of Hawaii's Most Notorious Cases

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of rape and murder as well as suicide. If you are in the United States and dealing with suicidal thoughts, call the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_01]: We told you about the rather bizarre conclusion of the Dana Ireland case a while back on an episode of Cheat Sheet. This 23-year-old young woman was raped and murdered on Hawaii's Big Island back in 1991.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Sean Schweitzer confessed to the crime. His brother, Albert Ian Schweitzer, who always maintained his innocence, spent 26 years in prison for the crime.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: DNA evidence led to them both being formally exonerated last year.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: That same DNA evidence ultimately led to the identification of another man, Albert Laurel Jr.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Police called him in, told him DNA linked him to the murder, and then they let him go. He soon died by suicide.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: All of this leaves us with so many questions. How exactly were the Schweitzer brothers convicted?

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Why did Sean confess when he was not actually involved with the crime?

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And why on earth would police call in Laurel, tell him he was implicated in one of the most notorious crimes in Hawaii's history, and then just let him go?

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Didn't they realize he was likely to flee or take his own life?

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: To get answers to these questions, we turned to Ken Lawson.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Ken is the co-director of the Hawaii Innocence Project and has been involved with this case for years.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: We were greatly pleased that he took the time out of his busy schedule to give us an insider's perspective on everything that's happened in this tragic case.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the murder of Dana Ireland, searching for justice in one of Hawaii's most notorious cases.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's start. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and the Hawaii Innocence Project?

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So I started here in 2010. I practiced law in Cincinnati, Ohio for almost 20 years.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I came here in 2008, started with the Hawaii Innocence Project in 2010, and been involved in Ian Switzer's case and a Dana Ireland case since 2010.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess to kind of go into more depth, what kind of cases does the Hawaii Innocence Project take on and sort of how does that organization work?

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Barry Sheck and Peter Newfield. You know, Barry Sheck became very well known when he represented O.J. Simpson along with Johnny Cochran back in the mid-90s.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But he and Peter Newfield started the Innocence Project in New York by using DNA to demonstrate that people are wrongfully convicted who are actually innocent.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: As a result of that, there are different, like every state has an Innocence Project.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And we are the Hawaii Innocence Project and we're connected to the William Massachusetts School of Law here at University of Hawaii.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And so our project ran out of the law school.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_02]: We represent anybody in Hawaii who's been convicted of a crime and can demonstrate that they're actually innocent of that crime.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And we use DNA to help demonstrate their actual innocence.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell us about what happened to Dana Ireland all those years ago, the sort of case that we're all talking about today?

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, actually, you know, back in the 90s when this happened, it became a national story.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_02]: But what happened was she was here visiting her sister with her parents.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Her sister, Sandy Ireland, lived on a big island with her husband.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And for Christmas, Dana, her parents came to stay with Sandy and her husband for that holiday.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Dana was on a 10-speed bicycle riding back to her sister's house for Christmas Eve dinner when she was hit by an automobile.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_02]: The bicycle was found in a scene in what's called here vacation land on the big island.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And her body was found about three miles away on a fishing trail where she had been brutally raped and ended up dying as a result of her wounds.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, after that happened, there was an investigation.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Again, this happened Christmas Eve 1991, right?

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And the police were looking for suspects.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: They had information that could have been an individual that was driving a small pickup truck or a van.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they continued to look for, you know, suspects.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And after three or four years, they had not made an arrest.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and became a, you know, there was a lot of pressure.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, the family was upset.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Mr. Ireland, Dana's dad, you know, would do press conferences and were right to states, not states, but just U.S. senators.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and trying to help put pressure on the police department here to solve this crime.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was a very high profile case.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Eventually, a guy named Frank Pauline was in jail awaiting bond or being held on bond for a rape case.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: He had family members, his half-brothers, and his mother had gotten into trouble on a drug case.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It was a major federal drug case, cocaine case.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And so while he was in jail and awaiting sentencing, his half-brothers contacted him and said, look, you know, you can help out the family, Frank, if you let them know that the Swicer brothers, Ian and Sean, were the ones who committed the offense against Dana.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And they're the ones who struck her, killed her, and raped her.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, and that way you can cut a deal and help get mom out of trouble and get, you know, our family out of trouble.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And so Frank initially, I mean, Frank is a character, right?

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So Frank initially, you know, calls the police and says, hey, I got information on the Ireland case.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And keep in mind, there's a lot of pressure to solve this case and a lot of public pressure.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, what happened was Frank called the police and, you know, he's in jail.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I got information about the, you know, Dana Ireland case.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, the Swicers, their mother, Linda Swicer, worked for the prosecutor's office.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: The dad was a local baseball coach.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So they were a pretty good family.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And they often, you know, would call the police about the Pauline, you know, Pauline's family, Frank Pauline's family, who were dealing drugs.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they, you know, the Swicers and this family really didn't like each other.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, so the Swicers really didn't like the drug activity that was going on.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And so there was no, like, friendly connection between, you know, Frank Pauline and Ian and Sean Swicer.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, now going forward, you know, so Frank calls the police and says, hey, look, you know, I got information.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Ian and Sean Swicer are the ones who killed Ireland.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And they're like, hey, Frank, how do you know this?

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And so Frank is like, well, I was in their Volkswagen and we were riding around.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And Ian Swicer was driving and Ian sees Dana on the bicycle.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And he runs her over and he and his brother Sean lift her and put her in the car, the Volkswagen.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And they take her to the fishing trail.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not, you know, I'm just there.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: This is what Frank is saying.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just there.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not involved in it.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just like a witness.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And they take her to the fishing trail and Ian raves her and leaves her there.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_02]: You know?

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So next thing you know, the police charge are, well, let me back up.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And so now remember, Frank is in jail.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And so Frank is like, well, an extension of this information.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I want you to, you know, go easy on my family who are charged with these drug cases.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And I like conjugal visits and I would like some food on it.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, Frank is like, we'll end up dealing.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And so each time Frank wanted something while he was in jail, the police would say, well,

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, Frank, if you want us to set up another conjugal visit, or if you would like us to

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_02]: put money on your books or whatever, you have to give us more information.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And what the records show is that slowly but surely, Frank starts talking himself into

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: this murder charge.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So, because he's giving more information in order to get deals.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, gosh.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And what happens is that eventually the police end up saying, okay, you know what?

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to indict you, Frank, and Ian and Sean Slicer.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's when Frank says, hey, wait a minute, you know, all these things I've been telling

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02]: you guys is BS.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I was just making it up.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And they're like, no, it's too late.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they charge a man, Dike, Frank Pauling, Ian and Sean Slicer for the murder and rape

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: of Dana Island.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: They do this before they have any DNA.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And so what happens later on, after they charge them, the DNA comes back and shows that the

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: sperm that was found on Dana's body, the sperm that was found on her panties and in the

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_02]: panties, the sperm that was found on the hospital gurney that her body was laid on when the

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: ambulance finally came and took her away from the fishing trail.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: All of that belongs to one unknown male.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And it did not match Ian, Sean, or Frank Pauling.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And what am I saying?

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the DNA comes back, right?

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And it demonstrates that, you know, Frank's recantation may be true, that he was just lying.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Because no one had seen a Volkswagen.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_02]: No one had reported any type of small vehicle that they thought may have hit Dana.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: The reports were either a van or a truck.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And the tire tracks at the fishing trail did not match a Volkswagen.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But nevertheless, right, they had indicted these guys.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So now the DNA comes back and says, you know what?

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe Frank might have been telling the truth when he recanted.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So they dismissed the indictment.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, in Hawaii at the time, the statute of limitations for rape was five years.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So this was like in 1996 or 1990.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was 1996.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, so they only had a few more months.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_02]: After they dismissed the indictment, the judge told the prosecutor that she only had like six

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_02]: more months before the statute of limitations for the rape burns out.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And so if you don't charge somebody, whether it's the swices or whoever, within the next six months,

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_02]: then you can't charge anybody for the rape of this young lady.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And so five months and like three weeks goes by.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And what the police do is they find this informant who is also connected to the Pauline family.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Pauline's half-brothers, their last name is Gonzales.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And I know this is a lot, right?

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And so you got the Gonzales brothers and Pauline, they're all half-brothers.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_02]: They have the same mother.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the Gonzales brothers, John Gonzales, has been dating this lady who her ex-boyfriend is locked up in prison.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So Gonzales calls this guy who's in prison and says, look, if you can state that Ian Swicer confessed to you while he was being held in jail on this case,

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: then there's a $25,000 reward that the Ireland family is giving.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And I can get the reward.

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: You come forward and say Ian confessed and it'll help your kids out too.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So this guy named Michael Ortiz is the guy's name, told our investigator that he was in jail and the police and prosecutor came to him and helped feed him facts of the case.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_02]: To where he came and went to the grand jury, he being Ortiz, and told the grand jury facts about the case and claimed that Ian had told him these things and confessed him in jail.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And so Ian and Sean and Pauline get indicted again.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Right before the statute of limitations is about to run.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And the new information is simply this jailhouse informant named Ortiz.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So now what happens?

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Frank Pauline goes to trial.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Remember, Frank every candidate said, you know, the story I told you guys was some bullshit.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you know, it was, I was lying.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_02]: We weren't involved in this.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So Frank gets convicted.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Ian is up next.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Ian goes to trial.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Ian gets convicted.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Ortiz comes into court, this jailhouse informant claims that he's convicted.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Ian can trust him.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, a few years ago, like I said, Ortiz recanted and told us why he made it up.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: But nevertheless, Ian gets convicted.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So then the prosecutors go to Sean's wife and they say, listen, if you will pass a polygraph examination

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_02]: about your involvement and plead guilty, we'll give you probation.

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[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the Swicers only have two sons, Ian and Sean.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And so once Ian got convicted, and you have to keep in mind, the publicity was just horrendous.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: There were one of posters put up with our client's face on it, did our lives, all throughout the Big Island.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_02]: They probably just hated these guys for what they allegedly had done at Dana Island.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, what happened at that point is that the family tells Sean, look, you know, Ian just got convicted.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: He got a life sentence.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_02]: They're offering you probation.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Even though we know you're innocent, you should, you know, we don't want both of our boys going to prison.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So Sean reluctantly is going to take the police.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_02]: But remember, he has to pass his polygraph, right, saying he was involved.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And so what happens is whenever you have a polygraph done of a client, the lawyers and the police detectives, no one is allowed in the room.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just a polygraph examiner and whoever the person being polygraphed is.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And so Sean and the guy giving the polygraph are in the room.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Sean is, you know, the guy's asking Sean about his involvement.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And what the attorney for Sean says is that the polygraph examiner comes out and says, look, I keep asking this guy about his involvement.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's coming up hot, meaning he's lying.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: He's lying about being involved in this.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the prosecutor and the police and the defense lawyer saying, look, he has to pass in order for him to get probation.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So go back in there and ask him questions in a different way.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Asking and they will give him different examples about maybe you should ask him about this, this and that.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So the polygraph examiner that goes back in, comes back out a few minutes later, tells the police and the defense lawyer, hey, look, man, no matter what, this guy is shook.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Every time I ask him about being involved in his case, he's lying.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_02]: He wasn't involved.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they said, well, listen, can you just say that the polygraph examination was inconclusive?

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the defense lawyer asked the police detective, would that be OK?

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Would that satisfy you guys in order for, you know, this man to get probation?

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So they said, yeah.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And so what happens is Sean goes to the court to take this plea.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And the judge asked the prosecutor on the record.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_02]: It's my understanding, Mr. Prosecutor, that this defendant, Sean Slicer, asked the polygraph showing he was involved.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And the prosecutor lied to the court on the record and said, yeah, he did pass when he didn't.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's important to demonstrate, one, because a lot of people say, well, hey, you know, if your client's actually innocent, you know, if anybody's innocent, why would they plead guilty?

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Why would they admit to something they didn't do?

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you go back and you look at the Central Park Five case, a lot of those individuals that got convicted actually admitted that they were involved in crimes they weren't involved in.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_02]: There's another case that's pretty famous called the Norfolk Four.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_02]: These are four sailors who confessed to rape and murder of a lady.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: None of their DNA matched.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you remember the Central Park Five, none of their DNA matched the victim there either.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Even though, you know, the prosecutor kept saying that these guys were involved.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And they did the same with these four sailors in Virginia, where there was a lady that was raped and murdered.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: The DNA did not match.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Eventually, as you know, with the Central Park Five and the Norfolk Four, the four sailors, they were all exonerated because DNA demonstrated that who actually did the crime.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And those individuals actually told the police later on that they were the only ones involved, that these other guys didn't do it.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So we know through DNA that people may admit to committing offenses that they never did.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, and that was the reason why we thought that was important when we got Ian and Sean exonerated a couple of years ago.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Because people say, well, why would Sean admit to being involved?

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And think about this, too.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Keep in mind, if you're Dana's parents and you know that there is unknown male DNA that demonstrates conclusively that somebody raped and murdered your daughter.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And this guy is supposed to be getting probation.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's supposed to talk about, you know, his involvement.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Wouldn't you want to know as a father or mother, you know, if you're going to get this guy probation, make him tell us who this fourth person is.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't let him walk out of here free unless he tells you who this person's DNA belongs to.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is another reason why we think the police knew that they had the wrong people is because there's no way that you would allow, you know, Sean or anybody else to take a plea like that and get probation for the brutal rape and murder without telling us who else was involved.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's what happened.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm sure I've been talking for a long time.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You guys may have other questions.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_00]: No, you're great.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: This is you're making our jobs easy.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So we appreciate you.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And I will I will say this is more of a comment than a question.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like one thing that we've seen in other cases is sometimes you have like touch DNA or DNA on somebody's shoes and the defense can make a big thing about that.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe it's relevant or maybe it's not.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But it seems in this case, the DNA was very conclusively linked to her attack, rape and death because it's like it's not just some sort of incidental touch DNA that could be explained away.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that is that fair to say?

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a real good point.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yeah, there's no doubt about it.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, like there's no doubt when the body was found.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So remember, you got two different crime scene locations.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You got where where the bicycle accident happened in vacation land near Dana's sister's house.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Remember, Dana's on her way to Christmas Eve.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: She's biking.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_02]: She's on her way back to a sister's house on a 10 speed bike.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_02]: When she's hit on this like desolate.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like a like a dirt road going back to where her sister lived.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_02]: When people came to the scene, all they could see was a bicycle that had, you know, obviously been hit by some type of vehicle.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_02]: They saw part of her hair, part of her scalp and blood.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But so there's obvious there's been an accident here, but there's no body.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, one of her shoes of that dislocation.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's no body.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So people are looking.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And most, you know, think about this.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_02]: If you come up and you see a bicycle that looks like it appears to have been hit by a car.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a shoe.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_02]: There's human hair where you can just say, OK, it's been an accident here.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But you find no body.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people would assume, well, maybe the person's been taken to the hospital because you don't.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: The assumption isn't.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, she's been taken and removed to a different crime scene, which is what happened.

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, so remember, so you got that crime scene.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Later on, a lady named Ida Smith finds Dana's body.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's Dana, you know, calling for help.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And so she goes down to this fishing trail.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_02]: When I talk about a fishing trail, what I'm talking about is this.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, you know, we're surrounded by water here in the middle of the island, right?

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_02]: In the middle of the ocean.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a dirt road that was like three miles from where the bicycle accident happened at.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And so if you want to, if you're driving down this dirt road, there's a trail at some point that will take you back to the ocean where you can go fish.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Ida here, Ida Smith lives near that trail.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And she says that she heard, you know, somebody yelling for help.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And she goes down there and she finds Dana's body.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Her pants, her shorts and her panties are down to her ankles.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So Ida calls for help.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: At that scene, there's a Jimmy V t-shirt.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: A t-shirt, you know, a Jimmy V t-shirt.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's blood all over.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's how the prosecution and the police try to connect the Pauline and Swash's to the crime scene.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02]: They had testimony that Frank Pauline owned a Jimmy V t-shirt.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And that this Jimmy V t-shirt that was found belonged to Frank Pauline.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So they had people come in and testify.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, Frank.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Does Frank have a Jimmy V t-shirt?

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, he does.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And is it like this?

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And yes, it is.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that's Frank's t-shirt.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they had some people that knew Frank come in and testify that.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_02]: The problem was that the t-shirt was a small.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And Frank weighed about 250 pounds.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And so even though they kept climbing the t-shirt along, I mean, that Frank put this t-shirt on,

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_02]: it would have been like, you know, one of those old halter tops, right?

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, his stomach, his gut would have been hanging out.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's what they called it.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And so back to your question about the DNA.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And the problem with the t-shirt was that back then in the mid-90s,

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_02]: DNA had not advanced to the point where they could test mixtures.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: What am I talking about?

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And you got a mixture of blood, sweat, and sperm all in the same t-shirt.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And so you got some, you know, it's Dana's blood mixed up with somebody else's sweat

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and somebody else's own DNA.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_02]: You can't separate.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_02]: They could not separate it back then.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And so you could not separate mixtures.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the Jimmy Z t-shirt was never tested for DNA.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So they kept saying this t-shirt belonged to Frank Pauline.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: The new evidence that led to the exoneration of our clients was eventually DNA advanced to the point

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: where we could separate the blood, the sweat, and the sperm DNA.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So now we were able to test the t-shirt to show that the same spine that was found in Dana's panties,

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that was found in the rape kit, the same spine that was found on the hospital gunny,

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: that her broken body was laid on when the ambulance finally got there, matched the spine that was found on the DNA t-shirt.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the DNA matched from the t-shirt, right?

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, we also had the underarms tested for what's called wearish DNA, W-E-A-R-E-R, wearer DNA, meaning what?

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the type of DNA that shows who may have worn a t-shirt.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, normally if you wear a t-shirt, your sweat underneath your armpits,

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02]: around your neck area, et cetera.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we tested, we had the DNA lab test around there for the sweat DNA to show who may have worn a t-shirt.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that came back.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_02]: The same person whose DNA matched the sperm also sweat DNA matched.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was all one person, all one male.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, but it was still an unknown one.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_02]: What we did was CODA's database, that's the FBI database to where somebody's arrested.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: In most states now, the police will take your DNA, take the person's DNA,

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and they will upload it in a DNA database that's national.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: You have been involved, or the suspect has had their DNA uploaded into this CODA database,

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: has been involved in another rape somewhere else,

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and that DNA has been uploaded in a database as a match.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And so what we had our lab do was, we had our lab submit this unknown DNA into the CODA's database

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_02]: to see if they're dead and then hit.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Because, you know, we usually think about a horrendous crime like this,

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_02]: you kind of think, well, this person, like, you know, you look at the Golden State killer, right?

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_02]: You're like, this person's probably done this before.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So maybe he or she's been arrested,

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and now if we put this DNA into the database,

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_02]: we'll get it hit and find out who actually killed DNA.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So back in 2017 and 2018, you know, we had it uploaded into the database,

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and it comes back no hit.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Meaning what?

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Meaning this person has never been, hasn't been arrested since that time

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and had their DNA uploaded,

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: or the person died and hasn't committed any more crimes.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Or the person just has not committed any more crimes, period.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we couldn't find out who this person was, which is like frustrating,

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: because you want to, you know, we don't know what happened to her.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the frustrating part about this.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_02]: People think, well, you know, you're representing the Swiser brothers,

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and, you know, after a while, like I said, I've been doing this case since 2010.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And after a while, you become kind of close to the family.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you get to know your clients,

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and you start really caring for the people you're representing.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But the other thing that happens, too, is that you start,

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_02]: you start caring about Dana.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And her style, like, you know, I have a fear of me.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_00]: No, you're fine.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_00]: That makes sense.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: We can hear how much you care about this whole thing.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's striking, because technically all you need to do

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: is just get your client out.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's very clear you were also interested in finding justice

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: for this poor woman whose life was taken away from her.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_00]: This young woman, and that's true justice,

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: because obviously having the wrong people suffer in prison

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: for something they didn't do is not justice.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, and so you want to know,

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: like, you know, how did this happen?

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: What did she do to make you do this?

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, all kind of questions, right?

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Because remember, if she's hit by an automobile

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: at, you know, near a sister's house,

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_02]: she had a broken pelvic.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, she, you know, she, I mean,

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: her body was just mangled, right?

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, the question's like,

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: did you rape her first and then chase her down on a bicycle?

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Or did you run her over

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and then take her down to the fishing trail

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and rape her in that condition?

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, what did she do to you?

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: You just want to know, you want to know what happened, right?

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Because that was the first,

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_02]: that was one of the frustrating things.

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02]: When you start caring,

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_02]: her parents are dead.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and you can look back at all the news articles

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and stuff that was done, you know,

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02]: when you're reviewing the case

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and you can see how much the parents were just,

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, I mean,

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_02]: how this just devastated this family.

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, so when the DNA comes,

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: when we upload it into CODIS

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's like, you know,

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_02]: no hits,

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_02]: it's like you still don't know who did it.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And so finally,

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: we go to,

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_02]: we go to,

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_02]: to get,

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: we found the emotion to get in

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and shine exonerated based on the new DNA testing we have.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Also,

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_02]: we have the,

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_02]: uh,

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_02]: action and reconstruction expert come in

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: who took the,

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_02]: the measurements that the police made.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And the police,

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: they never disputed this,

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_02]: that the vehicle that who's,

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_02]: who's the tire tracks at this accident scene

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_02]: where the bicycle was found

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and the tire tracks where the body was found

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_02]: were made by,

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02]: could not have been made by Volkswagen,

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: which is what they kept claiming our clients would drop.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And so,

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_02]: it just became impossible physically

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_02]: for the Volkswagen to have made the tracks

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_02]: in either scene.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And with the new DNA evidence

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and the fact that the Jimmy V t-shirt

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_02]: did not belong to Frank Pauline,

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_02]: all got our clients exonerated.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And so,

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_02]: this was in January of 2026,

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean,

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_02]: 2023.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we,

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02]: when Ian was let go

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02]: after spending 25 years in prison,

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02]: we gave a press conference,

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: uh,

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: to the,

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_02]: to,

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_02]: to the public.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And we let them know that,

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_02]: we still wanted to find who did this

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and keep in mind

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that while we're doing all this testing,

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_02]: the Hilo police department

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_02]: has not asked for anything to be tested.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_02]: All the testing,

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_02]: the DNA testing and stuff

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_02]: to find this unknown male

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02]: that they have known

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_02]: has existed since the trial in the late nineties.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_02]: All the testing

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: after our clients were convicted in the late nineties

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_02]: was done by us,

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_02]: us being in this project.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Now,

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_02]: the Hilo police department,

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_02]: they never tried to do anything

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_02]: to find this other person

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_02]: because I,

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_02]: anyway.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And so,

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Ian and Sean,

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02]: they had their convictions reversed.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_02]: They've been exonerated.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we reached out to a guy

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: named Stephen Kramer.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_02]: This was last February of 2024.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And Stephen Kramer was instrumental in finding

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: the Golden State Children,

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_02]: former FBI agent,

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_02]: former prosecutor.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And he does,

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and that is genealogy,

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02]: DNA testing.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02]: What is that?

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_02]: With Ancestry.com

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and what is it?

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_02]: 23andMe

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and all these other things.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: You know,

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_02]: where you can send in your DNA

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and they can tell you about your ancestry

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and where you were born

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and who you're related to,

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_02]: what country you were born in,

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_02]: et cetera,

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_02]: going back centuries.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Well,

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_02]: what Kramer did to help catch the Golden State Killer,

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: obviously,

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: was to put,

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_02]: the DNA into a genetic DNA base

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_02]: to see who these,

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_02]: who the persons are related to

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and then building some type of tree

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_02]: like that.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_02]: The amazing thing about this is

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_02]: we hired Kramer in February 2023,

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_02]: 2024.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And within three days,

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and within three days,

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_02]: this guy calls and says,

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_02]: here is the person you guys should get tested.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's talking about this guy named

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Albert Lowell Jr.

[00:33:52] Wow.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we look on Facebook,

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: right,

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and Albert Lowell Jr.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_02]: is a fisherman.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's actual photographs

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: on his Facebook page,

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: of the fishing trail

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: where Dan,

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: where he would be back there fishing

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and it would show pictures of him

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_02]: catching huge fish.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Same type,

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: same trail that Dana's body was found on.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02]: All these are all over his Facebook page.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02]: He's married.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_02]: He's got children.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_02]: He's got grandchildren.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Hasn't been in trouble.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So,

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: when I talked to Stephen Cramer,

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I said,

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_02]: how were you able to say this guy?

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Because the guy,

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: let me back up.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Remember,

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_02]: the investigation started in 1991,

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Christmas Eve,

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_02]: 1991.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And so,

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_02]: it went on for years.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And so there's like 110 banker boxes

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_02]: full of police reports,

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02]: transcripts,

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: et cetera.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: this guy's name is not in any report.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_02]: He never comes up as a suspect

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: in all those years.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And so one of the things

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that I wanted to know from Cramer,

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like,

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I know you're good,

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: man.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: You caught the Golden State Killer,

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02]: et cetera.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But how the hell did you,

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: how did you come up with this name?

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And,

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and what he said was,

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02]: he's like,

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02]: well,

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02]: the DNA show that,

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_02]: that this guy was like 80,

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_02]: 80 or 85% Filipino.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Meaning what?

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Meaning that,

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_02]: that three of his grandparents,

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: in order to have 80% DNA from one type of race or whatever,

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_02]: right?

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_02]: That means three of your grandparents have to be

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_02]: of the same race.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_02]: He said,

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_02]: but 20,

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_02]: 20% was Scandinavian.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: He said,

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_02]: so I was able to take that 20%

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and see that they were related to the Campbell family.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And the Campbell was a very famous family here in Hawaii.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02]: They go back to,

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_02]: 1700s.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_02]: There's high schools named after them,

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: streets named after them.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So like this dad was related to the Campbell family.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So he said,

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I went all the way back to the 1700s and started slowly building his

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_02]: family tree and came all the way up to now.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's how,

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02]: it's like,

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and so it just came down to this,

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_02]: this guy lived near the fishing trail,

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: et cetera.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think you guys should test him.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So what happens is the local FBI agent is contacted.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_02]: That agent then contracts the hero police department and the police

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_02]: department and the agent,

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02]: they're like,

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the police department doesn't believe,

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_02]: ain't like,

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: well,

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: there's no way to be this guy.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_02]: He has no record other than some,

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_02]: my enrichment kind of stuff.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they,

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02]: they follow this guy and they see that he goes and he purchases some food

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_02]: from,

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_02]: from a public place and he used to food and he disposes of that food and the

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_02]: utensil,

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_02]: a plastic fork.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they watch him do this.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they go.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And as soon as he leaves,

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_02]: they,

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_02]: they,

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_02]: they retrieve the fork,

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_02]: bag it and tag it,

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_02]: send it to our lab in California,

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the lab tested.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And it comes back.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a hit.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they're like,

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_02]: this guy is a man who wore the Jimmy D t-shirt.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It's his firm.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: No sound.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And Dana,

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_02]: he is unknown male number one.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So what happens next is that when we find this out,

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_02]: we call the prosecutors.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_02]: We meet with the judge.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And next day we found out on July 1st that this guy is our guy.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the next day we meet with the judge on zoom and we're telling the

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_02]: judge and we're telling the prosecutor,

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you guys need to get an arrest warrant and you guys need to get a search

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_02]: warrant.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_02]: But you know,

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_02]: you have to arrest him because if you do not,

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_02]: you let him know that he,

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that his DNA matches,

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_02]: he's either going to flee or kill himself.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And the reason why we were saying that is because when we looked at his

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Facebook page,

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_02]: this is the most,

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_02]: one of the most horrendous crimes in Hawaii history.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Any person who has to tell their children and their grandchildren that

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: they're the people,

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_02]: they're the person who actually did this.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And like you said earlier,

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and let men,

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_02]: be wrongfully convicted to spend 25 years in prison and brutally raped and

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_02]: killed this young lady.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Either they're going to flee or,

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02]: they're going to commit suicide.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was our concern.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And so what the prosecutors tell us is we can't tell the police how to

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_02]: handle the case.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're like,

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_02]: well,

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_02]: you can at least tell them they should make the arrest.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Well,

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_02]: we can't tell them to do that.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And so,

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_02]: um,

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_02]: this is July 2nd.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So then we write to the federal government,

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_02]: to the U S attorney.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're like,

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_02]: look,

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_02]: we think that we think there's a conflict.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Also,

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_02]: let me back up.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_02]: We believe that the hero police department knew all along,

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_02]: along with the prosecutor,

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that they had arrested and convicted the wrong people.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: If the only reason why they tried our clients and convicted them is because of

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_02]: public,

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_02]: the publicity,

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_02]: the need to,

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_02]: to solve this case went from,

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: let's,

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_02]: let's try to seek justice to let's just get a conviction.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And so eventually,

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_02]: with all the pressure that was coming from national politicians,

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_02]: as well as local and state politicians here to solve this crime,

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_02]: they did do a rush to judgment.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_02]: They,

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_02]: they knew that they had convicted the wrong people.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_02]: The DNA never matched.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And it made no sense what they were claiming.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we kept telling the judge and the crime to listen.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Our concern also is that the Hulu police department goes over and,

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and,

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and talks to this guy without anybody,

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_02]: video recording the statements that this man may make or a neutral party,

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_02]: like the FBI observing is,

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_02]: they may try to get him to claim that our client was involved in exchange for a

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_02]: deal.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we want to make sure that everything is being videotaped,

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_02]: recorded so that they don't come out and say,

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_02]: well,

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_02]: you know what?

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll tell you what,

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_02]: if you tell us that the Fleischer kids were involved in this,

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Mr.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Royal,

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and that they helped you out,

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_02]: then,

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_02]: we'll cut you a break.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And so,

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_02]: we were asking them to do all these things and that they had a conflict and

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that maybe the FBI should be the ones investigated,

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_02]: not the Hulu police department.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And we were rejected along the way.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_02]: You know,

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_02]: the federal government,

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean,

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: U S attorney said,

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02]: listen,

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a state murder is a state crime,

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_02]: not a federal crime.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So we really don't have any jurisdiction.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Then we wrote to the state attorney general.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_02]: We said,

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_02]: look,

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_02]: we believe that the local prosecutors and the police have a conflict.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the old prosecutors went and fed information to the jailhouse informant,

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: knowing,

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: knowing that this,

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_02]: this informant was going to lie and say they didn't confess to him.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_02]: You know,

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_02]: we have the informant confess this to us that the prosecutor was involved in this.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_02]: They have a conflict.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the,

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_02]: uh,

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_02]: the attorney general wrote us back and said,

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_02]: well,

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_02]: we spoke to the Hulu police department.

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_02]: They said that they're going to,

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_02]: that they're going to use the best practices and they're going to do this by the

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_02]: book.

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And so there's nothing else we could have done.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So this was July 19th when we got this letter back.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And so because we have been paying for all the DNA testing,

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: we've been in the Hulu police department has not paid for any of the DNA

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_02]: testing,

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_02]: whether it was with Steve Kramer,

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_02]: the Jimmy V t-shirt,

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_02]: all the money,

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_02]: all the DNA testing,

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_02]: the hundreds of thousands of dollars in DNA test was paid by the

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_02]: innocence project.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Why innocence project?

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Not by Hulu police department.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But because of this,

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_02]: anytime the lab would test something for the police department or for us,

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_02]: both the prosecutors will get the results.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And so will we instantaneously.

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And so,

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sitting at my computer on a Wednesday in July and I get this email

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_02]: from the lab saying that there have been a swan,

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I've done other suspects,

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_02]: a buccal swab,

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_02]: a buccal swab,

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_02]: which is like a two tip where they put it in your mouth.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Remember how everybody had to get the COVID test and stuff like that.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So they just kind of,

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of the same thing for DNA testing,

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_02]: but they just put the Q tip in your mouth and then they send it off to the

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02]: lab.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're like,

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_02]: wait a minute.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_02]: The lab report came back,

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Sean,

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: that the Hilo police department had went to this guy and took his DNA again,

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_02]: using the Q tip,

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_02]: et cetera,

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_02]: sent it to the lab.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And no one had told us they even approached this guy.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it came back again,

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_02]: a match.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we see this and we're like,

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: wait a minute,

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: what did they do?

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was on July 19th.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So we call up the product.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_02]: He was like,

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey,

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_02]: we saw that the police department went out and approached this guy.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Did they place him in custody?

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Did they arrest him?

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Well,

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_02]: we can't tell you that we can't comment on going investigation.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I said,

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_02]: look,

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_02]: all you guys just tell us is he in jail.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Cause I hope today didn't go out there and swab him and then let him know

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_02]: that he's a suspect and let him go free to flee or kill himself.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And it wouldn't tell us.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we got,

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_02]: we call the judge's clerk and we're like,

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_02]: look,

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_02]: we need to get the judge and everybody,

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_02]: back in a meeting and a conference because we just found out that they,

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_02]: they swab this guy and they're not telling us that they got him locked up.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So the judge calls a conference.

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_02]: We're all on zoom.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Remember the judges are willing.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_02]: We are located on a Wahoo in Honolulu.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the,

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the judge is on the big Island.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And so,

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_02]: we're all on zoom and the judge,

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_02]: asked the prosecutor,

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and the judge tells him,

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_02]: he said,

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: look,

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I have a printout of everybody that's locked up in the state of Hawaii.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't see this guy locked up.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Where's he at?

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Prosecutors.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You know,

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_02]: we can't comment on ongoing investigation.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_02]: The judge's like,

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_02]: wait a minute.

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_02]: What difference does it make if you just tell us,

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_02]: if he's locked up?

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Your Honor,

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_02]: we can't comment on ongoing investigation.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the judge is like,

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just asking you guys,

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: right?

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So the judge asked him like several times.

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_02]: They're like,

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_02]: look,

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_02]: judge,

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02]: our concern is that,

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_02]: we just want to know if he's locked up.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_02]: We don't see how this affects the investigation telling us that.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's all the consequences will say.

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And so this was on a Thursday.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the next day I called the morgue and I'm asking,

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and so I pretend that our,

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I pretend that that is already dead.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm like,

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_02]: do you have the body of Albert Laurel?

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm calling it,

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_02]: to,

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_02]: to see when it's going to be released.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I called the medical examiner's office here in Honolulu,

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_02]: because they don't have a medical examiner on the big island.

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And at the time I had thought that,

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that if somebody died of a suicide or was killed or whatever,

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_02]: that their body would be flown from the big island over to Honolulu.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So when I called the medical examiner here in Honolulu,

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_02]: they're like,

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_02]: we don't have that body.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they told me,

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_02]: but we wouldn't because it happened on the big island.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_02]: You have to call the police department because they double as the medical

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: examiner.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So again,

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and which is really crazy,

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_02]: right?

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So the chief of police on the Hilo police department also serves as like

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_02]: the,

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_02]: the big island medical examiner.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And so now I've got to call the police department that I think is lying

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_02]: about where this guy is at.

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So I called the police department and I,

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and I said,

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm looking,

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to know when the body of Albert Laurel is going to be released.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't ask them if they have it.

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a,

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just bluffing.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I get this young officer and he says,

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh,

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_02]: you got the wrong number.

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_02]: He said,

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_02]: this is our professional standards department.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said,

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh man,

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_02]: like that.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_02]: He said,

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_02]: but you know what?

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll help you.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I said,

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_02]: what's the name of the guy you're looking for?

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_02]: The dead guy.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So I told him the name again.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_02]: He said,

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_02]: hold on.

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So he goes,

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_02]: puts me on hold.

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I recorded all of these too.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So he puts me on hold and he comes back and he's like,

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_02]: he's like,

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_02]: what did he say?

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_02]: He said,

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_02]: he said,

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_02]: you got a pen of paper.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I said,

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah.

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_02]: He said,

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_02]: okay,

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to give you the,

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_02]: the,

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_02]: the report number.

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So he gives me the report number.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said,

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_02]: so what,

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_02]: he tells me it happened on Tuesday.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And like,

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_02]: but I don't know,

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_02]: if he killed himself or somebody killed him.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So I said,

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I said,

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and I like,

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know what a police report number was.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So I said,

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_02]: well,

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_02]: why would he have a criminal case number?

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_02]: If it's a suicide.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he said,

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_02]: oh,

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_02]: he said,

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_02]: oh,

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not a criminal case number.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_02]: He said,

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_02]: that's a report number.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: He said,

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: anytime,

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_02]: there's been a suicide,

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_02]: something like that.

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And we respond,

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_02]: we have to do a report.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said,

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_02]: but you know,

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you can ask the detective more questions.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_02]: He's in charge of it.

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So he gives me a good touch.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the number,

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_02]: you know?

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And so now I verify what,

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_02]: that this guy's dead.

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I get off the phone with this guy and I call the judge's clerk again.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like,

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_02]: look,

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_02]: we need to meet because this guy has been dead since Tuesday.

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And the prosecutors told us yesterday,

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_02]: they don't,

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_02]: that they couldn't comment on this.

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the judge gets involved back on the,

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_02]: in a zoom meeting again,

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_02]: the judge is like,

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's sort of judge asked the prosecutor.

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Now the prosecutors,

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_02]: right.

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_02]: On zoom,

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_02]: but they have their own lawyers.

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_02]: There.

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not a prosecutor to have lawyers.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_02]: so it's just,

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey,

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_02]: just,

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey,

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_02]: look,

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_02]: we all met yesterday.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And I asked you all,

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_02]: where was this guy?

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Did you know he was dead?

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's been dead since Tuesday,

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_02]: right?

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yesterday was a Thursday.

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_02]: The honor,

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_02]: we cannot comment on an ongoing investigation.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Instead of just,

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and look,

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to tell you,

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_02]: tell you,

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you guys have an ethical duty.

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It's called a candor to the court where you have to be honest with the court.

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm asking you guys one more time.

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_02]: When you all met with me yesterday and I asked you where this man was at,

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_02]: did you already know he was dead?

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So they,

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_02]: then they,

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_02]: they,

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_02]: they,

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_02]: they muted their mic.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_02]: You could see that they were talking to their attorney.

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_02]: They unmute their mic.

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Your honor,

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_02]: we cannot comment on an ongoing investigation.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean,

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_02]: the judge,

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_02]: he kept his composure,

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_02]: which was the credit to him.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It would have been me.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean,

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_02]: we were just so angry,

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and,

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and,

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_02]: they wouldn't even confirm that he was dead anyway.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So right now,

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_02]: where the case is that now is that we filed a motion basically stating,

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_02]: because when they went out to take this DNA,

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_02]: the interview,

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_02]: the interview just got right.

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And our understanding is that he told them that he didn't know our clients.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_02]: That he's claiming that he was coming back to the fishing trail and he saw a body already there on a fishing trail through,

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's when he raped her,

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_02]: but he didn't kill her,

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_02]: right?

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_02]: That he left her there.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's not the one who said it unbought her there.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_02]: That's his excuse,

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_02]: right?

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So they stand up,

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_02]: they'd be in the process to stand up in court.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_02]: They claim,

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_02]: well,

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_02]: that,

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_02]: the Swices could have still been involved in this.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Now,

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_02]: this is the stuff that they're standing in court.

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the police department and the prosecutor said,

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_02]: judge,

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_02]: they didn't have enough evidence to arrest the suspect because he didn't confess

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_02]: to murder.

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And because the statute for rape had already ran,

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_02]: they couldn't arrest him for the rape because the statute of limitations ran out in

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_02]: 1990,

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_02]: when I was six.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And so without his confession for murder,

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_02]: they couldn't arrest him.

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And what I said was when Sean and Ian was charged with the murder of Bain,

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I,

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Sean Slicer was charged with second degree murder because they said that he knew that this person

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_02]: had been a victim of an assault and needed help.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And he left her there.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And so,

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_02]: if Laurel is because in Hawaii,

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_02]: let's say if you hit somebody with a car or you,

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you get into a fight,

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_02]: you hit them with a baseball bat,

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_02]: or you see somebody else do it and you know that they need aid and you just like walk away from it.

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And you don't even try to get them help.

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_02]: You can be charged with second degree murder.

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And so,

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_02]: the question was,

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_02]: what they were saying was some BS because if Laurel admitted,

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_02]: if this guy admitted that he raped her and then just left her there,

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_02]: if he was good enough to charge our clients for second degree murder,

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_02]: why didn't you charge Laurel with it?

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Why are you saying you couldn't charge him with murder?

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And again,

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean,

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I just still believe that the reason they didn't ever want it,

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_02]: they did not want the truth to come out.

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_02]: They knew that he was either going to flee or kill himself because if they really wanted to arrest him,

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_02]: the murder charge was there and they could have done that.

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Why would they go on telling that?

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Knowing that he was either going to flee or kill himself,

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_02]: unless they didn't want the truth to come to life.

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So now we're in front of the Supreme court because the prosecution and the police department is refusing to give us whatever else this man has,

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: the statement he made to him and any other evidence that they have,

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_02]: it shows that our clients are,

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_02]: they had nothing to do with this.

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And like the judge asked him,

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_02]: they keep saying it's an ongoing investigation.

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_02]: How's an ongoing,

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_02]: how do you investigate a dead man?

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean,

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_02]: what are you going to do?

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You can't charge him anyway.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's where we're at.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Well,

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_01]: thank you.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That was incredible.

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_01]: We were just sitting here ripped by that.

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You're quite a storyteller.

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess one quick question I have is obviously you're,

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_01]: you're very experienced.

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You used to practice in Cincinnati.

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Does this sort of thing you,

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_01]: you,

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: you've seen in this case,

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_01]: does this speak to something unique about Hawaii and its culture and its law

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_01]: enforcement,

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_01]: or do you see these sorts of things happening elsewhere?

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_02]: You see it.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean,

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_02]: you see it happening elsewhere.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I think,

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_02]: you see it happening elsewhere,

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_02]: but I think one thing about being way out here in the Pacific is,

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_02]: is that,

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_02]: how they say iron sharpens iron,

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_02]: right?

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And so when you got the police telling people certain things and there's no

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_02]: other like alternative theories or,

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_02]: other experts out here saying that's just some bullshit,

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_02]: people get fed this stuff and they kind of believe it.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was really frustrating listening to the police,

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_02]: their press conferences talking about,

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_02]: we couldn't have,

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_02]: we had no,

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_02]: we couldn't arrest him for murder.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sitting there,

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like,

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean,

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_02]: it was,

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean,

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_02]: it's just,

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and right.

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And so without other experts chiming in saying,

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_02]: what that chief just said is a BS,

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_02]: right?

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean,

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_02]: you just can't wait somebody to leave.

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they die.

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And you say that you can't arrest them for murder.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean,

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll be serious.

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just frustrating.

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_02]: It really,

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_02]: really is because now,

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: we never,

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: we don't get the answers we've been looking for.

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_02]: You know,

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Dan's family doesn't get the justice they had been seeking because the person who

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_02]: actually committed this crime,

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_02]: right?

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_02]: He was able to live a relatively,

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_02]: got married,

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_02]: had kids,

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't serve a day in jail.

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And when you had a chance to arrest him,

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_02]: you let him go.

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And he took the easy way out.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And not only that,

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_02]: but you let other people,

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_02]: you,

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_02]: you had our family believe that these other guys committed this crime and they

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_02]: spent 25 years in prison.

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_02]: At least one of them did for a crime he didn't commit.

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And so you re victimize our family,

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_02]: you re victimize the slices.

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And,

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and it makes absolutely no sense why you would not arrest this man unless you

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: knew or didn't want the truth to come out.

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the only thing that makes sense because it'd be different had you not

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_02]: been told,

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_02]: right?

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But we told you,

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_02]: the attorney general told you,

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_02]: others had told you,

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_02]: make sure that you arrest him.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Why would you go out there and ignore all that?

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah,

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_00]: it's incredibly troubling.

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_00]: As you said,

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_00]: it really compounds the tragedy for all sides at this point.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And it,

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_00]: it just seems like a needless thing.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't seem like something that had to happen at all.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just crazy.

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh,

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I just want to,

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_01]: again,

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_01]: thank,

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_01]: uh,

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Mr.

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Ken Lawson for taking the time to join us today and share with us the

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_01]: fascinating story behind this really tragic case.

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover,

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_01]: please email us at murder sheet at gmail.com.

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[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee,

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[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_01]: kevintg.com.

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered,

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_00]: you can join the murder sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_00]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting.

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're not on social media much.

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_00]: We do try to check our email account.

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_00]: But we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for listening.

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this murder sheet episode.

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Just as a quick post-roll ad,

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_00]: we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful silver linings handbook.

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_00]: This show is phenomenal.

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people,

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_00]: overcoming tragedy, well-being, like he does it all.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a show for you.

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_00]: He has so many different conversations with interesting people,

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_00]: people whose loved ones have gone missing,

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_00]: other podcasters in the true crime space,

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_00]: just interesting people with interesting life experiences.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer,

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_00]: where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way,

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_00]: guiding those conversations forward.

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise,

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_00]: because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and really make it interesting for his audience.

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_01]: On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been a really good friend to us,

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a really terrific show.

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_01]: We really recommend it highly.

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think our audience will like it.

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_00]: He's been on our show a couple times.

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_00]: We've been on his show.

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a terrific guest.

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I say this in one of our ads about him,

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_00]: but I literally always am like,

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_00]: oh yeah, I remember when Jason said this.

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_00]: That really resonated.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I do quote him in conversations sometimes,

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_00]: because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_01]: She quotes him to me all the time.

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I remember when Jason said this?

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_00]: That was so right.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, I think if we're doing that,

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and you like us,

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you should give it a shot.

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Give it a try.

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll really enjoy it.

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And again,

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_00]: he does a range of different topics,

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_00]: but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion,

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_00]: of overcoming suffering,

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_00]: of dealing with suffering,

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_00]: of mental health,

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_00]: wellness,

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_00]: things like that.

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_00]: There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_00]: that I think we find very nice.

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough.

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_00]: But this is something that almost can be like,

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime,

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can,

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_00]: can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It's compassionate.

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's affirming.

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_01]: People.

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Jason is a very intelligent,

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_01]: articulate person.

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a smart show,

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's an accessible show.

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's got a great community that he's building.

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_00]: We're really,

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_00]: we're fans of the show.

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_00]: We love it.

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And we would strongly encourage you all just check it out.

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Download some episodes.

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Listen.

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll,

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_00]: you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways,

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_00]: you can listen to the silver linings handbook,

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_00]: wherever you listen to podcasts,

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_01]: wherever you listen to podcasts,

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_01]: very easy to find.

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.