The Murders of Blake and Chynna Dickus: Michael Jerome James Speaks

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02] I am in love with Miracle Balm from our new sponsor, Jones Road Beauty. Now, let's be clear. I'm not the biggest makeup wearer in the world. Sometimes I skip wearing makeup because it just doesn't feel good. It's too cakey. It looks bad or off. And sometimes I'm just in way too much of a rush to apply it well. But when I put on my Miracle Balm, it looks natural, fresh, effortless. I put it on and I could head out to dinner with friends or a little date night with Kevin. Or we could go to court. I love how lightweight it feels. And I love that it gives me a bit of a glow.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_02] It's just this kind of clean, natural look that I love. I adore how it enhances my skin instead of just hiding it. Also for me, it's just so convenient. I could put it on really fast. Like one day after we were super busy with the podcast, Kevin and I went out for dinner in a movie. The new MST3K reboot. So even though I didn't have a lot of time, I put it on and loved the way I looked. It took about like five minutes at most. Also, clean beauty is a must for me.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_00] This formula is packed with ingredients that love your skin. With no phthalates, sulfates or BPA.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_02] No clogging, no clumping, just convenient beauty. Miracle Balm requires no brushes. Use it as a highlighter, a bronzer, a blush, lip tint, whatever you want. They'll have you glowing up in 60 seconds. They did for me. Oh, and definitely try their minimalist defining mascara too. The formula leaves your lashes so soft and feathery, no clumps, and it's the most natural looking definition. Modern day makeup that's clean, strategic and multifunctional for effortless routines.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_02] For a limited time, our listeners are getting a free full sized mascara on their first purchase when they use code M sheet at checkout. Just head to jonesroadbeauty.com and use code M sheet at checkout. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. Hello, everybody. I am Anya.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_02] And today we are going to be talking about the initial hearing in the upcoming case against Michael Jerome James for the murders of Blake and Chynna Dickus Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder and violence, including the brutal murder of a child. All right, everybody. So today was the initial hearing in the case against Michael Jerome James. He is the defendant in the Dickas murders trial.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_02] He is, of course, accused of murdering Blake and China Dickas in their Franklin, Indiana home on July 24th, 2006. This is a case that has gone unsolved for many years. And only just recently have we learned, OK, someone is being charged with this. Someone has been arrested. And now the prosecution is looking to convict this man over this horrific case.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_02] Kevin and I traveled down to Franklin, Indiana today to go to the Johnson County Courthouse, Franklin being the seat of Johnson County, and to attend the initial hearing in the case. So we're going to talk all about that today, right?

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, let's get to it.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_02] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02] And this is The Murders of Blake and Chynna Dickus. Michael Jerome James speaks.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_00] I think as we talk through what we saw this morning, some issues will naturally come up that we will go into further. And there was another issue that didn't come up today. I've heard people talking a lot about behind the scenes that I think is worth discussing.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_00] But before we get into that, I think it's worth making the point that in this stage of the game, we have a lot less information as members of the public than we would typically expect to have at this stage.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00] Typically, at this stage, we would have a probable cause affidavit, which is a document explaining why the state believes a particular person is guilty. A PCA doesn't need to lay out every last detail, every last bit of evidence against the charged party. But it typically does a decent job of laying out the fundamentals of this case.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_00] In this case, there is no PCA because he was indicted by a grand jury. So a PCA is not required. And also the grand jury proceedings are sealed. So we don't even know on what basis the grand jury decided that they believe this man was guilty of this crime. So that's the stage. That's the stage setting. This is the first initial hearing.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_00] It's usually not something that is terribly dramatic. It's basically an opportunity to make sure that the defendant is fully aware of the charges he or she may face. And also, for lack of a better term, it's an opportunity to check in and find out what's going on.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_00] So certainly it's not something where you expect there to be a lot of fireworks or back and forth between the two sides, crossing swords or anything of that nature.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_02] Right. Yeah. I think these initial hearings tend to be pretty quiet. And there were some interesting tidbits, though, that we were able to glean. To go back to your point about the lack of public information about this case and about specifically why Michael Jerome James has been charged, one thing that I often compare things to is the Delphi murders.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_02] And that was a case where Carroll County prosecutor Nicholas McClelland was roundly criticized for, in the beginning, sealing the probable cause affidavit. And we were people who were also criticizing him about that, by the way. And I just find this interesting because there was a huge hue and cry over that. Understandably so, in my opinion, because people really want to know what's going on.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_02] Now that we've interviewed Mr. McClelland and sort of know his side of it more, I can certainly understand why he did that. But at the time, I also understand why people were like, hey, what's going on? But to me, and Kevin, correct me if I'm wrong, to me, this is even more secretive. Because whereas my understanding and having talked to Nicholas McClelland, he wanted to at least temporarily seal the PCA.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02] But I don't think that was ever supposed to be like a permanent measure. There was strategic reasons for doing that. And people can agree or disagree with that. But it didn't feel like that was supposed to be like, we're not going to know anything until trial. Whereas in this instance, it sort of feels like, correct me if I'm wrong,

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02] but there isn't a mechanism of release for a lot of this stuff, aside from, I guess, like pretrial hearings or pretrial motions from either side until trial potentially.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it's hard to know exactly what's going to happen. Certainly there's a possibility that something might come out before the trial. Yeah. There's also a possibility that it might not. And I'm not saying there's anything nefarious here. There may be perfectly good reasons for the secrecy, which you and I and the public are not aware of. But I think it's fair to say that secrecy doesn't exactly make people confident.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_00] It doesn't really put people at ease about how the system is working.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_02] Perceptions of secrecy absolutely spur on conspiracy theories in our experience, even if it's well-intentioned, as you said.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00] In other stages of the game, secrecy is not only acceptable, it's desirable. I've seen some reporting recently, I believe this is from our friends at Fox 59, which indicated that the family of the victims was aware of the name of this man for literally years before he was arrested. And they kept that secret.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_00] And it's very important and wonderful and desirable to keep secrets like that during the investigation. But once you charge something and bring it to trial and hold someone in custody, to some extent the investigation is over and it's time to draw open the curtain and expose it to public view.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02] I think it's safe to say that you and I at the murder sheet are very much on the side of public access in most situations and want to strenuously encourage that and call for that and recommend that in any sort of situation. That being said, I also think it's not helpful to speculate that this is part of some kind of grand conspiracy to frame somebody.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_02] There can be all sorts of strategic reasons perhaps to do this that because you and I do not have experience being prosecutors or defense attorneys, we can't really think of. So I would encourage everybody we can put a pin in this and note it's unusual and maybe even express concern. I think all that's totally reasonable. I don't think it's reasonable to then jump to conclusions about what it means.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_02] And to me, that gets into irresponsible territory. I'm sure people are going to do that. But I would just say, let's just let it play out. If you and I start getting the feeling, OK, this is bad because of this, this and this, you know, that would be that would be after talking to experts. That would be after weighing evidence or whatever. That's that's that's all in the future.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_02] And I find it's easiest and best and most accurate to take these trials and take these cases one step at a time when we're in a dynamic situation where not all information is known immediately. Rather than ascribing ill intent or maliciousness to anybody that we don't know and we don't know what they're doing. So why would we assume it's awful and bad? We don't need to assume it's good and competent either. We can just sort of let it play out.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. And as long as we're talking about this, let me, before we get to the hearing itself, talk about something we do know. We do know about a potential issue in this case. Mr. James was, I believe, 14 years old at the time. He is alleged to have committed this crime.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00] So a few years ago, Indiana passed a law which basically said, oh, under certain circumstances, if a person is a juvenile when they committed a crime and they're now an adult, you can charge them as an adult. That this, as I say, was a law that was passed just a few years ago, well after this crime is committed.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00] And so the question is, can a law that was passed after a crime was committed be used to prosecute someone who committed a crime prior to its passage? Let me try to put that in simpler terms because I feel I say that in a confusing way. Today in court, Anya wore a charming and delightful blue sweater.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, thanks. It's a quince sweater, by the way. Wearing it right now. Shout out to our sponsor, quince.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_00] Looked wonderful. Let's say that a couple of years from now, the people in Johnson County, for whatever reason, pass a law saying people are not allowed to wear blue sweaters in Johnson County courts. Obviously, we could say, oh, from that time on, if Anya were to show up to court the day after that law took effect wearing a blue sweater. Yes, by all means, punish her to the fullest extent of the law.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_00] But would we think it is all right to punish Anya for the crime of wearing a blue sweater when the law wasn't even passed until after the crime was committed? The alleged crime of her wearing this blue sweater. So that's what I'm saying. This law that provides a framework for charging this man as an adult passed well after the crime is committed. Is it OK? Is it legal?

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00] Is it appropriate to use that law to prosecute this crime, which occurred, again, well before this law was passed? And I'll be honest with you, I don't know the answer to that question. I think there are good arguments on both sides. I think there are arguments saying, yes, it's fine. I think there's arguments saying, no, this is fundamentally unfair.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_00] What I can tell you is that this is an issue that will likely be argued extensively in the pretrial process. If Mr. James's defense attorneys are unable to convince the judge that the law should not be used here and it is used and he is charged and is an adult and he is convicted, I would imagine this to be an issue that would come up in the appellate process.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00] So that is also something in the background. We don't know that much about the evidence, but we do know that there is this issue lurking in the background that is going to be dealt with.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_02] Can a law be applied retroactively?

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_00] Again, I don't know. I can imagine generally the answer is no, but I can imagine arguments on both sides. And I was talking about this with a reporter who said this could be a test case. So I don't know. I'm not even sure.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_02] I wouldn't think it would be.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_00] Typically, it's not.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_02] Well, that's going to be interesting.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_00] I guess the argument would be, oh, we're not applying the law retroactively. We're applying the law as to how we're able to prosecute crimes from that date going forward.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, I see.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00] I think you could try to make that argument. OK. I don't know how persuasive that is.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02] No, I get like that. That works better for me than like. Yeah. OK. I mean, I see.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00] I'm being very open and forward with you all. I don't know where I'm going to come down on this. A lot of it is going to depend on the arguments both sides make, because I could imagine both sides making very powerful arguments in that matter.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Just, you know, and I'll just say this. If Johnson County wants to come at me in my blue sweaters, I will paraphrase an apocryphal Andrew Jackson quote, Johnson County has made their decision. Let them enforce it. That was actually about a really terrible situation. That was when I think he expelled the Cherokee from Georgia. So awful situation. But Andrew Jackson was a bad person. I'm not a fan.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_00] OK. So with the Andrew Jackson talk out of the way and I rambled a lot there.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_02] We love looking good and saving money. So we love our wonderful sponsor, Quince. The clothes they make are comfortable, affordable, and they don't go out of style. They're those wardrobe staples you'll reach for again and again. We certainly do.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00] I recently got a pearl snap denim western shirt and denim blue that I wear all the time now for every day and for fancier events and get togethers. It's breathable and comfortable, which is a huge deal for me. And I know as the weather cools, I'll be returning to my Quince sweaters, namely my Australian merino wool cable crewneck sweater and my Mongolian cashmere crewneck sweater. Those are so soft and so perfect for the fall. Their Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $60. Check them out.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02] Seriously, get them and we can all match. I love my 100% European linen fit and flare midi dress in chilly red and navy blue. I got two of them because I love them so much. The fit is so good. I think they're so cute and I've gotten a lot of compliments wearing them. So love that. And as Kevin said, I can't wait until it's a bit colder out so I can break out my Mongolian cashmere sweaters. That's the great thing about Quince, though. You want to wear these pieces again and again.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_02] These are classic pieces and you're going to want to get even more because these are 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they cut out the middlemen. Refresh your wardrobe without breaking the budget.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_00] Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the murder sheet. It is the best way to support the show.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_02] Fall means darker days and chilly air. But if you or your partner sleep hot, it can be tricky to get your bedding set up just right. And we all know that health and wellness starts with good sleep. For Kevin and I, that means it starts with amazing, comfortable bedding from our sponsor, Bowling Branch.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_00] Stay cozy as the temperatures drop with Bowling Branch. You never sleep hot again. These sheets are going to help you make your bed feel like the coziest, most relaxing place in the world. Somewhere to snuggle up as the winds blow. Their signature sheets are the key ingredient. But they also provide temperature-regulating comforters. Cozy and breathable blankets. You are going to want to upgrade your entire bed.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02] We certainly did. Our first foray into Bowling Branch was their signature hemmed sheet set in Dusty Rose. Love the color. Love the matching waffle bed blanket. We actually ran out and bought a second set. These ones are sand-colored. That way, we will never have to go back to regular bedding.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00] Once you try Bowling Branch, you will understand. It's like bedding from a really nice hotel. Woven specifically for airflow, not just softness. So you will feel cozy, not hot. We have been getting amazing sleep on these.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02] Plus, I don't know what magic or sorcery they're doing for this, but the more we wash them, the softer they get. I've never had that before. Seriously, check them out. You're going to melt away. You're going to take your bedtime routine to the max. Bowling Branch sheets are the official pick of the murder sheets from here on out.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00] Upgrade your sleep with Bowling Branch. Get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at bowlingbranch.com slash msheet with code msheet. That's Bowling Branch. B-O-L-L-A-N-D branch.com slash msheet. Code msheet to unlock 15% off. Exclusions apply. We'd like to give a big thank you to Vented, the sponsor of this episode.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_02] For those of you who haven't seen backgrounds of our lives, the clutter has gotten out of hand at our house. So I've decided to make an effort to do some serious cleaning. One of the places I'm starting is in our bedroom closet. I can't believe all the clothes I had in there. I'd probably frankly never wear again. They were taking up a lot of space. But I didn't want to just be wasteful and throw them away. That didn't seem right. And they have a lot of life in them.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_00] That's when we found out about Vented, a great way to turn the clothes in our closet into money.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_02] And also clear up closet space for new clothes.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_00] Vented is a secondhand market app that makes it easy for everyday sellers like us to sell our pre-loved fashion items. I love that this app is free to download and there are no seller fees. That means we get to keep everything we earn.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_02] Vented makes it so easy to list items. They even help you after an item sells by creating prepaid shipping labels. It couldn't be simpler. And that just makes me want to list more and more items. It makes me feel so much better to have a less cluttered closet.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_00] And these days it also helps to be able to earn some extra money, especially when Vented makes it so easy. That's Vented. V-I-N-T-E-D. See what's hiding in your closet. You might be surprised how much you can earn with Vented. Download the Vented app for free to start listing with no seller fees. Should we actually get to what happened today?

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Yes. So today is October 8th, 2026. It is a Thursday. And at 11 in the morning today, we had this initial hearing in the Johnson County Circuit Court.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_00] Do you want me to talk about how it began or do you want to tell the story of how it began? Because I thought the beginning was very interesting. Why didn't you tell the story? So we're in court and even if you don't go to court, you've seen it on TV. A bailiff cries out, all rise. Everybody stands up. The judge walks in, says, you may be seated. And then that's when the fun begins.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00] This morning, when Judge Rosner walks out, the bailiff says, all rise. And Judge Rosner, almost acting like a little bit embarrassed, says, just keep your seats. Just don't even bother standing up. So I thought that was interesting.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_02] Sit down, you nerds. Yeah, I kind of fell back into my seat by accident because I was like really eager to stand up and then kind of then second guessed it as I'm hearing him and kind of fell down. So, you know, that was that was how we started off. A casual judge.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_00] A casual judge. But then he made it very clear how he expects people to behave in his courtroom. No recording. If you're caught recording something, we're going to take your devices. If you misbehave or show emotion or things of that nature, you're going to be escorted out. He made it clear he expects proper behavior in the courtroom, even though he acknowledged that this is an issue that people are quite emotional.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02] Understandably, a 26 year old young woman and a 10 year old young boy being brutally murdered. And one thing from my research that just is emphasized in the press again and again is how brutal these killings were and how horrible they were. So I can understand people being emotional. Can I assess maybe some things that I noticed in terms of the gallery?

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00] Please do.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So one thing I noticed, I don't know the ins and outs of this case enough to identify everybody. I do. I did see people wearing the China and Blake sort of button and, you know, with their faces on it. And, you know, I believe at least a number of those people were from Blake and China's family.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_02] And they came in to support their loved ones who are unfortunately no longer here because of this horrible double homicide. So they were there. It was pretty packed, I would say, in terms of, you know, the seating. It really filled out the courtroom. And at the last minute, I found it very interesting. Suddenly, there's kind of this marching kind of like people into the room, this like large group of people.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02] And I turned and I noticed that I believe that they were largely law enforcement officers judging from the badges on their belts. Some of them also wore the China and Blake buttons. You kind of got the sense that they're showing up to show their support for this case, to show their support for the families. Kind of a, you know, a showing of support is what I read that as.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_02] And I get the sense that at least for the Franklin Police Department and for other law enforcement agencies that worked on this case, including Johnson County Sheriff's Office. I know there's been help from the Indiana State Police. There was help from the Federal Bureau of Investigation. One gets the sense that they took this personally. This was considered something that really could have happened to anybody. Blake and Chyna were not doing anything wrong. No one deserves to get murdered.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_02] But this was a young woman, a homemaker who really wanted to be a mother herself and her 10-year-old stepson, you know, an innocent. He loved Sonic the Hedgehog and playing video games. He was really good at multiplication. Like, he didn't even get to go to fourth grade. He'd be an adult now. Like, that's what's so upsetting about it. Like, his family has missed so many milestones. Chyna's family has missed the same.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02] So, I think for law enforcement, this is personal. And just the number of people I saw kind of gathered, they kind of filed in behind us. They were sort of standing against the wall. And, you know, that presence was notable to me. As far as people there to support Michael Jerome James, again, I'm not familiar enough with who's who in this case to necessarily have been able to identify anybody.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_02] It's possible people were there, but I just don't know. We noticed Lance Hamner coming in. He is the Johnson County prosecutor. He is the elected prosecutor, so he runs this office. And he was present at the prosecution table for this.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_02] And I believe the state of Indiana is represented by the lead prosecutor in this case, or at least what's listed there right now is Matthew Kabaki. Sorry if I'm saying his name wrong, but he was also seemingly seated at the prosecution table.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00] So, after Judge Rosner gave his opening remarks telling us how he expected us to behave, the defendant was brought into the quorum. Did you want to make any comments or observations about his demeanor?

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, so they bring in Michael Jerome James, and he is clad in, you know, the typical jail orange jumpsuit, orange socks, sandals. And he is manacled and shackled. He's got a deputy's hand on his arm sort of leading him in.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02] He, you know, I never really like to weigh too much on expressions, but everybody wants to know that, right? And I just think it's really impossible to read anything. Oftentimes people are just making an effort to keep a blank face because, you know, they've probably been instructed to some level, hey, don't have an emotional outburst in court, that's not good for you. And it's an overwhelming situation.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_02] So, to me, I guess he had a kind of a mild expression, I would say, just a blank sort of expression. A couple times I thought he was smiling, but frankly, I didn't have a very good angle to look at him. And that may have just been the way his face was. So, I wouldn't, I just don't read that much into any of this. I think people pay way too much attention to that stuff. You know, there wasn't really anything super notable. Again, like at first I was like, wait, is he smiling?

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_02] But then I think it was like, I was just like, oh, I think he's just kind of holding his face in that way. It didn't really seem, you know. And he was very quiet, which was difficult to hear at times from where we were sitting. And we heard from other reporters that they also had a hard time.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_00] Including reporters who sat almost directly behind him.

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So, and again, like, we got to remember, that's annoying, but we got to remember, he and the court officials are not performing for us. Okay. It's not a play. And as long as they can hear each other, that's all they care about.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. And as long as, most important of all, as long as the court reporter can hear them to create a record. So, he comes in, he speaks, he gives his name.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_02] He's sworn in.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00] Sworn in in a very clear, non-shaking voice, gives his name. He indicates that he understands the charges against him. The judge even went through the possible penalties for the charges he faces. He's currently facing, I believe, four counts of murder. That's for technical reasons. Eventually, that will become two counts of murder. What's the penalty for murder?

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02] It is, I believe, 45 to 65 years in Indiana. And we saw that in Delphi, too, where there are two charges that they don't call it felony murder in Indiana. But I believe the charges are essentially committing murder while also doing a burglary. And then the other one is, the other two are just your standard murder. So, yeah, that's what those are.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02] It's a legal distinction. He's only accused of killing two people.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_00] So, basically, his maximum sentence he faces would be 130 years.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. If he's charged as an adult in the cell goes typically. Yes. So. I don't know what, I don't know, I have no idea on the juvenile side what that would look like at all.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I think at some point we'll probably try to get an expert on to talk to us about whether or not they believe he can, in fact, be charged as an adult.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_02] But you hear about heinous cases where juveniles are tried as an adult. And this certainly qualifies as that in my mind. So, is this a situation where they'd have a second avenue to be like, well, it's just so bad that we're going to do it anyway? I don't know how that works.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00] So, one of the important things a judge is charged with doing at this stage of the game is protect the rights of the defendant. And actually, all throughout the process, the judge is responsible for protecting the rights of the defendant. But at this process, at this stage, I think arguably one of the most important rights a defendant has is the right to counsel.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_00] And so, Judge Rosner asked Mr. James about that. He said, basically, you have three choices. You can hire your own attorney. You can say, hey, I don't have the funds. I can't afford my own attorney a point one for me. That's option two. Option three is, hey, you know what? I'm going to represent myself.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_00] And Mr. James indicated that his intent is to eventually hire his own attorney. My understanding is through reporting I've seen, I believe, on Fox 59 that perhaps a family or he or someone connected to him is going to sell a house and presumably use the proceeds of that to pay for an attorney. But as you can imagine, there was some uncertainty with the timing of that.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_00] So, he was telling the judge, I don't know when I'm going to have the funds to do this. Probably weeks. I don't know. The judge took the position. You know, I don't want to appoint an attorney and just have them do the job for a couple of weeks and then pull them off. I think we can all imagine how frustrating that would be if someone drops a really big job in your lap and you start doing it. And then they say, oh, never mind.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_00] So, there was some back and forth about that.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_02] He said, quote, we're working on that at one point with the attorney thing.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_00] Mr. James said that. The way it was left is Judge Ross and I said, well, here's what we'll do in a couple of weeks. Let's have a hearing where we check in and see what your status is in terms of getting an attorney. And if you still want to hire your own, if you want one to be appointed, you actually set a date for that. That's going to be on November 2nd.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_00] And Mr. James will not appear in person at that particular hearing. That will be remote.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_02] What if he sells his house, gets a bunch of money, retains an attorney, but then at some point that's not enough? That amount of money that he was able to get together, you know, the funds run out.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_00] At that point, if he's unable to pay for his attorney, presumably one would be appointed for him. Most people don't have the resources to pay for their own attorney in a murder case. Because not only are you paying for the time of the attorney, you're also paying for all the experts. You're paying for an investigator.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_00] You're paying for all the attorney's associates who are going through all the records and documents. That adds up really quickly. That adds up very, very, very quickly. You brought up that certain aspects of this to you echo Delphi. I'm sure you remember, Anya, the first time Richard Allen appeared in court. He said, well, I'm going to hire my own attorney.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I think a lot of people don't understand how expensive it is.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_00] And then later he said, uh, maybe not. It will be interesting to see if he does indeed end up hiring his own attorney. I don't know what attorney he would hire. Uh, as long as they're talking about Delphi echoes, one thing that I think is in the back of a lot of people's mind is that attorney Andrew Baldwin, who represented Richard Allen in the Delphi case rather famously.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_00] His law office is literally just a few blocks away from the Johnson County courthouse.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02] I wouldn't pay that guy to get me out of a parking ticket.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_00] So.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02] Like, I mean, if he wants, I mean, good Lord. Can you imagine him coming into this one? I, you know, in, in, in fairness to Richard Allen, Baldwin was appointed his attorney. He was getting paid by the state of Indiana to represent Baldwin. If this guy wants to sell his house and get him, I mean, what a mess.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_00] Or maybe.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02] Money he earned going to that.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_00] I have no inside information. I'm just saying he is arguably the best known attorney.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02] James should probably read our book before he makes that decision if that's what he's leaning towards.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_00] Maybe he's looking at other attorneys. Uh, I don't know. That's just something that's in the back of a lot of people's mind. As I indicated, this next hearing to discuss the status of the council issue is going to be November 2nd. Then they're going to have a pretrial omnibus scheduled for December 10th. And the trial is set for January 12th. Anya, do you think the trial is actually going to happen on January 12th?

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_02] No, no, no, no chance.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_00] Go on.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_02] Well, in order to do your due diligence for, you know, especially for the defense who are getting handed all of this discovery, you need time and you need the ability to conduct potentially your own investigation, to hire your own experts, to look at everyone, to depose everybody. I mean, you just need a lot of time. And so a judge is totally within their rights to say, hey, let's put something on the calendar.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_02] But it's usually with the acknowledgement that this will get continued and pushed back. So, I mean, trials can, this could be two years from now that we're looking at.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, who knows?

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_02] You know, you just don't know.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_00] But yeah, I certainly agree. I think it's very unlikely that this trial is going to happen in January.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02] One question I wanted to go back a little bit was, did you think it was unusual? Sometimes I've heard in these things, judges go through each of the charges individually and sort of read the charges with the defendant. That didn't happen here. The judge, Judge Rosner did kind of sit down with him and say, OK, have you read everything? This is your signature. Like he went over everything with him, but they didn't delve into each charge. Was that odd, unusual or nothing?

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00] It's a little unusual in my experience. I don't think it's a huge deal. Yeah. Yeah, it's a little unusual.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_02] You usually see that. But yeah, it doesn't mean anything. It's just something I was just curious about because usually I just, you see that.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_00] After those next hearings were set, the judge turned to the defendant, Michael Jerome James and said, hey, you got any questions for me? And Mr. James did have a couple of questions. One question he asked is, when is a copy of the PCA going to be released or at least given to me?

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_00] And I think what happened there was interesting because I think it's something that lawyers often do and maybe experts in other fields do too, where somebody asks a question. They ask it in a little bit of a wrong way. And they're not really asking it in quite the way they want to.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00] And the lawyer who answers answers the question that is asked instead of the question that is intended to be asked. I believe that when Michael Jerome James said, hey, when is the PCA going to be released? He's basically saying, when is the information about the evidence behind my arrest is going to be released? That is the question he was asking.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_02] That's the question all of us are asking.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00] Even though he phrased it poorly.

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_02] Well, it's like he's not a lawyer. So you can't blame him there.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_00] Judge Rosner answered the question as asked, which was basically, oh, well, because you were indicted by a grand jury, there's no PCA to be released. Next. So he didn't really answer the substance of the question. He just, yeah.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, he may not, like, wouldn't that be kind of up to the prosecutor?

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_00] He, the judge could explain the process of when or if or how some of this information would be released.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_02] You know, one thing that I could see this turning into a big media and kind of public relations nightmare for the prosecutor's office is if we do have a Delphi situation. In Delphi, Andrew Baldwin, Brad Rosey, Jennifer Oje, they were the defense team. And they, especially in the beginning with Baldwin and Rosey, would essentially communicate to the press talking points that they wanted out there in their filings.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_02] So it, a lot of those read more like press releases, very colorfully written and attention grabbing. And they, that they, it seemed to be more trying the case in the court of public opinion. And frankly, I think to a certain extent, because the press was already annoyed with some of the lack of public access or, or maybe that triggered some suspicions. I think that did color for a long time how the case was covered.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02] And if you're the prosecutor in this case, and for whatever reason, might be a very good reason for all we know, I don't know. But you're not releasing some of this information. And then you get a defense attorney who is essentially telling the story for you in the media. That can be pretty detrimental to the jury pool. Because it's not being counteracted.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_02] So I would be very curious to see how the prosecutor's office tends to, it intends to combat that if that does come to pass. But yeah. You know, as far as the judge, I guess he's just like, I don't know.

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_00] He just kind of ducked it by saying, well, there is no PCA.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know if he ducked it. I think he did. I think he thought he was answering the guy's question. I think it's more like lawyers, lawyers are very literal, right? You ask them a question and then they answer that question. I think that's what you're trained to do. And I think it can be good and refreshing.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_00] But you're not. I certainly never do that. I always answer exactly, give the information people want to know. So the other question he asked involved Mr. James actually revealing something which I don't believe has been revealed to date. But which isn't really a surprise. Basically, he said, hey, I've been held in solitary since I've been arrested. What's the deal with that?

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_00] I don't think it's surprising that he's been held in solitary. Do you want to discuss why?

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I'd want to know, is it solitary confinement or is it a one-man cell? Because there's a difference. And a one-man cell certainly is something that if Michael Jerome James has some sort of documented history of mental health issues, that can be something that gets someone put in a one-man cell just for their own safety or because they might hurt someone else.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_02] And it's safer for those who work at the jail and the other inmates at the jail. Now, the other aspect of this that could be a factor is that one of the victims that Michael Jerome James is accused of murdering was a 10-year-old boy. And one thing we've heard from people who have served time in jail and in prison is that inmates despise individuals who harm children. They're often seen as the lowest of the low.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_02] And in a jail setting and in a prison setting, unfortunately, there can be a lot of violence. I don't think that's how the system should work, but it is how the system is in reality. So you have violence. You have these people considered lesser than. And they're considered often acceptable targets for beatings or even killings. We even heard from people who said, yeah, I was in a gang. And like, you know, initiation would be like stab a pedophile.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_02] And again, I'm not saying that's no bearing on this man's guilt or innocence. It's just that if he is perceived as a child killer by other inmates, that could put him in a really dangerous position.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_00] So because of that, for security reasons, for his own protection, it might be necessary to isolate him from other prisoners. That's just reality.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_02] Well, you know, I mean, they certainly had a huge hue and cry over this in Delphi. I mean, maybe we should just have a little jail for all the people who are accused of doing really bad stuff to kids. I don't know.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_00] I think it's interesting that he's making this an issue so soon after the oral arguments in the Delphi case, because I think it shows that people are looking at that case and saying, oh, if I'm being kept in solitary, even if they say it's for my own protection, maybe that's something I can use in my favor.

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I'm sure they'd also use it in their favor if they got stabbed in Gen Pop and it'd be like, why didn't the state protect me? Why did the state throw me to the wolves? Why did the state why I'm going to sue the state because I got stabbed? I mean, it's like there's no winning. I would love to know what people should do in this situation because it just seems pretty impossible to me.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_00] I think it illustrates when you decide a case, obviously, you just look at the bearers of that case in isolation.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_00] But I think it does show that if in the Richard Allen case, the state is, for lack of a better word, punished for keeping Richard Allen in protective solitary custody, that might have ripple effects and other people might try to use that for their own advantage.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_00] But as you say, I'm not sure what the alternative is, because if you put him in general population and allow him to mix freely with other inmates, they look at him. He's a person accused of violence against a child. It's a very high profile crime. I'm not sure this guy would live.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_02] He might. I mean, he certainly seems like less. Pathetic than Richard Allen, at least physically speaking, you know, like Richard Allen didn't like he looked like someone could kill him by looking at him, you know, glaring at him in the in the yard. This guy, I don't know, but it could put others in danger. And we don't know his mental health history.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_02] So if there's a mental health history, too, I think there's also policies that if you have a history of certain things, you might be isolated more. And it's you know, I'm not saying it's a good system. I don't. But I think, you know, I'll be curious to see how it plays out.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_00] The judge in his reply essentially said something to the effect of at this time, I'm not going to make any sort of judicial ruling on that. I leave decisions about what decisions about your confinement and what may or may not be necessary for the protection of you or others to the sheriff who runs the jail.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_00] If after you get an attorney, if your attorney wishes to make some sort of complaint or file a motion about it, I'd certainly be happy to consider it then.

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I wonder if James is regretting trying to wait to raise money for an attorney because or if he's going to come to regret that because it seems like it kind of. Slowed him down a lot and he's not going to get a lot of. The ball rolling immediately because of that.

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_00] And then Judge Rosner entered a preliminary plea of not guilty, which I believe becomes the plea of record in 20 days. Was there anything else you wanted to say about this initial hearing?

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_02] No, at that time, Michael Jerome James was escorted out. And, you know, this is a case where there's definitely a lot of mystery to it at this time because of the lack of information. Kevin and I will be continuing to report on it and continuing to dig and trying to find as much information as we can that we can report to the public because I think it is in the public's interest. And I would just encourage all of you, if you know something about this case, email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_02] We want to hear from you. We protect our sources. And if you come to us with something sensitive, we're not going to just like be like cool and record it and slap it on the show two minutes later. People are scared that that might happen. The reality is we're very careful about everything we do. We kind of obsess over it and you're not going to be it's not going to be that sort of thing. You can trust us to we really strive to protect our sources.

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_02] So just know you can come to us if you have friends who live in the Franklin area who might be willing to speak. Please get in touch. We would love to talk to them. And I just feel like maybe the more information we can get out there, perhaps we can all get closer to the truth. And the last thing I would say, I just think it's important to state, you know, we're getting into the legal aspects of all of this.

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_02] But at its heart, this is just a horrific tragedy for this family. Right. Sean Dickus lost his child and his wife in one fell swoop. But Christina Dickus lost her little boy. And all of their relatives lost these two special, beautiful people. And it really is an utter tragedy.

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_02] So as always, my heart goes out to the families of the victims, the family members of the victims, their loved ones, and everyone who lost Chyna and Blake. I know a lot of people in the community were really deeply affected by how horrible this was. So, yeah, I think let's keep them in our thoughts as well. Is that all?

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_00] That's all.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_02] All right. Thanks, everyone, for listening.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_02] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_00] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_02] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join The Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.