The University of Idaho Murders: Bad Facts: The Defense's Case

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[00:01:25] Before December 30, 2022, 29-year-old Brian Koberger was simply known to those in his life as a criminology PhD student at Washington State University. After his arrest on that date, he became known throughout the world as the defendant in the University of Idaho slayings.

[00:01:42] He stands accused of murdering University of Idaho students 21-year-old Kaylee Gonzalez, 21-year-old Madison Mogan, 20-year-old Zanna Kernodal, and 20-year-old Ethan Chapin in an off-campus house in Moscow, Idaho early in the morning of November 13, 2022 between 4 and 4.25

[00:02:01] a.m. Bad Facts is a series where we outline what we feel are the biggest hurdles ahead for both sides of our criminal case. Today, we'll be focusing on obstacles for the defense.

[00:02:12] This will be analysis, maybe a bit of opinion. Your opinion may diverge with ours in some places, but we're primarily looking at this from a utilitarian and strategic position, not one of actual guilt versus actual innocence. Anya Kain, Jr. My name is Anya Kain. I'm a journalist.

[00:02:28] Kevin Greenlee, Jr. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. Anya Kain, Jr. And this is The Murder Sheet. Kevin Greenlee, Jr. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. Anya Kain, Jr. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:41] Kevin Greenlee, Jr. And this is The University of Idaho Murders. Bad Facts, the defense's case.

[00:03:32] So yesterday, we talked about the bad facts for the prosecution. Feel free to go back and listen to that. There's not a lot there. To be honest, I was stretching a lot because it's a very strong

[00:03:44] case against Koberger. This episode is going to be a bit more substantial because I feel like there are some pretty significant hurdles for the defense to clear. Kevin Greenlee, Jr. To say the least, there is a devastating case against Koberger.

[00:03:58] Yes, I think devastating is a good word for it. It baffles me when I see people online saying things like, well, I think he's probably guilty, but I don't know if he'll get there.

[00:04:10] It's really bad. I mean, he's innocent until proven guilty, but he's in a very bad position. I don't think people seem to understand that. Some do, but others kind of, I think, there's a thing where you kind of overcomplicate things in your mind.

[00:04:29] Some people have such a high standard, I feel like no one could be convicted of a crime ever. So the first bad fact for him, to put it bluntly, in plain language, his alibi sucks. Yes, that is the legal term for it. His alibi sucks.

[00:04:44] Tell us about it. This is what he said. This was from the notice of defendant supplemental response to state's alibi demand. Quote, Mr. Koberger was out driving in the early morning hours of November 13th,

[00:04:56] 2022, as he often did to hike and run and or see the moon and stars. He drove throughout the area south of Pullman, Washington, west of Moscow, Idaho, including Wawai Park. Sorry if I'm

[00:05:09] butchering that park, end quote. So he's out driving to see the moon and stars. It's very poetic. And he's by himself. So a good alibi is something that could be corroborated. In other words,

[00:05:22] you have other people backing you up. Best case scenario would be like your alibi is backed up by people who are disinterested in the case. Or perhaps maybe the best of all alibi would be if you're actually caught on surveillance video, your face. Yeah.

[00:05:40] At the time the crime was being committed. In a place where it would either be extremely difficult for you to get back to the crime scene in time to kill people or impossible, preferably impossible. But hard is good too. It's the fact

[00:05:55] that he's out driving by himself and that's his story is bad. That should be obvious to everyone. I don't feel like this needs a lot of explanation. If you're being accused of a crime and your DNA

[00:06:09] is at the crime scene and your excuse is, no, don't worry, I was driving around the area at night while no one saw me. That's not good. The truth will set you free.

[00:06:21] We live by that on the murder sheet. We're always looking to get at the truth when we cover criminal cases, when we're parsing through legal documents and stories from survivors and detectives and attorneys just trying to get the full picture.

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[00:07:02] The Kanan she came to love was an invention, a ghost. Brit's journey to piece together this disturbing mystery isn't just compelling. It's a raw look at self-discovery and the power of coming together to form a community through shared grief and trauma.

[00:07:18] Listen and follow You Probably Think This Story Is About You wherever you listen to podcasts. I'll note this. One thing that the defense has said is that they have an expert who is going to, well, let me just quote it. This is from the same document.

[00:07:36] Quote, Mr. Koberger intends to offer testimony of Cy Ray, CSLI expert, cell tower, cell phone and other radio frequency curricula vitae is attached to show that Brian Koberger's mobile device was south of Pullman, Washington and west of

[00:07:52] Moscow, Idaho on November 13th, 2022. That Brian Koberger's mobile device did not travel east on the Moscow Pullman Highway in the early morning hours of November 13th and thus could not be the vehicle captured on video near the Moscow Pullman Highway near Floyd's Cannabis Shop.

[00:08:08] Additional information as to Mr. Koberger's whereabouts as the early morning hours progressed, including additional analysis by Mr. Ray, will be provided once the state provides discovery requested and now subject to an upcoming motion to compel. If not disclosed, Mr. Ray's testimony

[00:08:24] will also reveal the critical exculpatory evidence further corroborating Mr. Koberger's alibi was either not preserved or has been withheld. End quote. We'll get to Cy Ray later, but I just wanted to note that they're saying we have something good for this.

[00:08:41] And so you're offering a bit of a teaser that we would deal with that later on. Yes, because it is not as good as they're saying it is. It's not good at all. All right, let's go to an adjacent topic to the alibi, which is his digital phone.

[00:08:59] This is a bit confusing, so I'm looking forward to having you lay it out with your trademark crystal clarity. Ah, well, I'll try. So his phone is identified in the records as 8458. It's from AT&T.

[00:09:16] And this is basically the investigators got a search warrant for his phone records between November 12, 2022 at midnight and November 14th at midnight. And here's what the arrest warrant affidavit had to say about his phone. Quote, on November 13, 2022, at approximately 242 a.m.,

[00:09:37] the 8458 phone was utilizing cellular resources that provide coverage to 1630 Northeast Valley Road, apartment G201, Pullman, Washington, hereafter the Koberger residence. At approximately 247 a.m., the 8458 phone utilized cellular resources that provide coverage southeast of the Koberger residence consistent with the 8458 phone leaving the Koberger residence and traveling

[00:10:02] south through Pullman, Washington. This is consistent with the movement of the white Elantra. At approximately 247 a.m., the 8458 phone stops reporting to the network, which is consistent with either the phone being in an area without cellular coverage, the connection to the

[00:10:17] network is disabled, such as putting the phone in airplane mode, or that the phone is turned off. The 8458 phone does not report to the network again until approximately 448 a.m., at which time it utilized cellular resources that provide coverage to Idaho State Highway 95 south of

[00:10:35] Moscow, Idaho, near Blaine, Idaho, north of Genesee. Between 450 a.m. and 526 a.m., the phone utilizes cellular resources that are consistent with the 8458 phone traveling south on Idaho State Highway 95 to Genesee, Idaho, then traveling west towards Uniontown, Idaho, and then north back

[00:10:55] into Pullman, Washington. At approximately 530 a.m., the 8458 phone is utilizing resources that provide coverage to Pullman, Washington and consistent with the phone traveling back to the Koberger residence. Okay. What does all that mean, Anya? The way I'm reading that is at a little

[00:11:15] bit before 3 a.m., his phone leaves his residence. A few minutes later, it is going towards... Oh, a few minutes later, it's shut off. It's either shut off or it's on airplane mode or whatnot.

[00:11:35] Then at 448 a.m., it's suddenly on the highway. So it indicates somebody turned his phone off during the crime, but it also kind of puts him towards that area. Right. So that's not good. That's not good at all.

[00:11:59] Well, what's worse, and we'll get to this later is... We'll actually get to it next. Why did he even bring his phone with him? I don't know. I mean, we don't know. But here's the thing.

[00:12:11] This isn't good, but you could say, well, it could be he's out driving. The problem is that the phone's movements are attached to the movements of a white Elantra, which was a suspicious vehicle that there's even more evidence against. So the phone puts him in the car. That's

[00:12:30] a big problem here. So let's talk about the car, the white Elantra. The phone and the car are completely intertwined. As part of the investigation, there was an extensive search. And this is what investigators said about it. This was around the King Road residence. Quote,

[00:12:49] this video canvas was to obtain any footage from the early morning hours of November 13th, 2022 in the area of the King Road residence and surrounding neighborhoods in an effort to locate the suspects or suspect vehicles traveling to or leaving from the King Road residence. This

[00:13:05] video canvas resulted in the collection of numerous surveillance videos in the area from both residential and business addresses. I have reviewed numerous videos that were collected and have had a conversation with other MPD officers, ISP detectives, and FBI agents that are similar

[00:13:22] surveillance footage that was obtained. A review of camera footage indicated that a white sedan hereafter suspect vehicle one was observed traveling westbound at the 700 block of Indian Hills Drive in Moscow. And then later on at 244 a.m., a white sedan is also observed on

[00:13:47] Washington State University surveillance camera traveling north. And then it is seen driving towards SR 270, which connects Pullman and Moscow. So you're kind of seeing a car that's kind of hitting off where it needs to be in order to be going to Moscow and then leaving. So basically,

[00:14:18] the white sedan is believed to be his white Elantra. The kind of coexistence of his phone and a vehicle matching his car's description that's kind of going to where it needs to be, even if

[00:14:35] the phone is turned off for a lot of this, is bad for the defense. All the pieces are fitting together and creating a picture of this man being awake and in a car that is going towards the

[00:14:49] murder scene just before the murder. Is that what you're saying? Yes. And they could say, well, he was just turning his phone off so he could be relaxed and watch the moon and stars, but I don't think that's a very good excuse, especially when you consider other things

[00:15:03] that we're going to talk about next. So I listed this also as an obstacle for the prosecution, but I think the fact that DM, one of the surviving roommates of the victims who is also

[00:15:16] an eyewitness in this, saw the killer and that the killer is a 5'10 or taller man, not muscular but athletically built with big bushy eyebrows. I think the fact that that fits with Koberger is very problematic for him. So he's about 6' tall, weighs 185 pounds,

[00:15:39] he's got big eyebrows. It's not devastating to him, but it certainly doesn't... It's another piece. Yeah. It seems like there's a lot of little pieces that are stacking up. We have

[00:15:51] him being placed in a vehicle going towards the crime scene and we have a person who fits his general description at the crime scene doing the murders. Yes. So at least so far, there's nothing

[00:16:06] that would rule him out. No. And then the thing that to me is the most devastating piece of evidence against him is, of course, DNA. So when you are accused of something and your DNA is found

[00:16:19] at the crime scene, that can be very problematic for you. Sometimes there's a good reason for your DNA to be at a scene or on a victim and it's innocent. There can be like touch DNA, there can be

[00:16:32] if you're in a consensual sexual relationship, there can be DNA that doesn't necessarily indicate you did anything bad. There can be all sorts of things. If you live in a house... With someone else. With someone else. But... I'm sure if I was found horribly murdered

[00:16:47] tomorrow, there would probably be some of your hairs on my body. Right. Because we live in close proximity. Yes. So it's not always devastating. But if you have somebody who has no business being

[00:16:57] around some people because he doesn't know them and then his DNA is at the crime scene, that's a problem. So this is from the probable cause affidavit. I'll read it. And it's from Brett Payne.

[00:17:10] Quote, I also later noticed what appeared to be a tan leather knife sheath laying on the bed next to Mogan's right side when viewed from the door. The sheath was later processed and had K-bar,

[00:17:21] USMC, and the United States Marine Corps Eagle Globe and anchor insignia stamped on the outside of it. The Idaho State Lab located a single source of male DNA suspect profile left on the button

[00:17:33] snap of the knife sheath. And then so let's be clear, this is a knife sheath that matches the weapon that killed these kids. I don't believe they actually have the knife, but that's pretty

[00:17:47] bad. The sheath matches the weapon and it's a sheath that is left at the murder site. And it is a sheath that does not belong to one of the victims. And so you have a knife sheath and it has

[00:18:03] this guy's DNA on it. Let's talk about how they link that together. Quote, on December 27, 2022, Pennsylvania agents recovered the trash from the Koberger family residence located in Albrightsville, Pennsylvania. That evidence was sent to the Idaho State Lab for

[00:18:21] testing. On December 28, 2022, the Idaho State Lab reported that a DNA profile obtained from the trash and DNA profile obtained from the sheath identified a male as not being excluded as the biological father of suspect profile. At least 99.9998% of the male population would be

[00:18:40] expected to be excluded from the possibility of being the suspect's biological father. Okay, so that's really bad. Yes. Like his DNA is on the knife sheath. I guess unless you can say that there's some widespread conspiracy to frame a random

[00:18:58] criminology PhD student for this case, I don't know how you explain that. You either need to have deposit the existence of a massive conspiracy to plant that evidence there, or you would need to provide another reason for the knife sheath to be there that doesn't

[00:19:18] implicate Koberger in the crimes. Off the top of my head, I don't believe this is what happened, but if hypothetically you could establish that Koberger and the murder victim were friends, and for some reason he let her borrow his knife and his knife sheath, that would establish a

[00:19:38] reason for it to be there that is independent of him committing the crimes. Or he sold it recently, one of them purchased it. Yes. But barring something like that, and barring the idea that it is planted, the only reasonable conclusion is that the reason

[00:19:56] the knife sheath was there was that Koberger dropped it while he was there committing this horrible crime. Because then people say, well, maybe it was just a lab mix-up, but how would

[00:20:08] that happen? How would they mix up DNA of a guy that's not on their radar? He came on the radar because of DNA. So what I'm asking is how would they have gotten Koberger's DNA to have the mix-up? Does that make sense or am I missing something?

[00:20:26] Yeah, a lot of these conspiracies don't make sense to me. I've heard people speculate that, oh, we know when Koberger was going home for Christmas, he was stopped by Indiana police, maybe the Indiana police surreptitiously stole some of his DNA and put it on the knife sheath.

[00:20:43] None of these things make sense. No, it's really bad. The things we talked about earlier, those are all pieces, little stones that stack up and they point to something, but they don't put

[00:20:56] him at the actual scene, but DNA does. They do not definitively put him at the scene. Even somebody seeing someone who resembles him at the scene doesn't definitively put him at the scene, but his knife sheath puts him at the scene unless there's another explanation.

[00:21:14] Maybe he loaned the knife sheath to a friend of his. We need to have an explanation. Right now, the only explanation out there that is the least bit plausible is that Brian Koberger dropped the

[00:21:29] knife sheath at some point while he was in the home committing a quadruple homicide. Yes, I agree. This is a devastating piece of evidence and it certainly bolsters the case extensively. The next two things I'm going to talk about are more of strategic issues that

[00:21:49] I see the defense making and less of a problem around evidence against him, but let's talk about it anyway. I feel like there's a predication of this defense team to pick weird witnesses.

[00:22:02] What do I mean by that? We mentioned Cy Ray. He's a former law enforcement officer turned podcaster. He runs the TRAX software. It's been used extensively by law enforcement agencies, so that sounds really good. One of the things that they talked about in his hearing where

[00:22:19] they're talking about bringing him into the case was he's usually on the law enforcement side, so isn't that credible because now he's on the defense side, so he must be very convinced. When you look into this, I don't think law enforcement should have ever been using this.

[00:22:36] They shouldn't have been using this stuff. One judge wrote in basically dismissing him from a case in Colorado that he inflated his credentials, that he claimed to be more of an engineer than

[00:22:56] he is. He has an associate's degree. He's not an engineer. People have said that this technology is not reliable. He does not have the expertise for this. He's been thrown out of a number of

[00:23:09] different cases over time. It's not clear to me. To me, when people say, but law enforcement used him, well, guess what? Law enforcement makes mistakes. That's why we have wrongful convictions. That's not some end-all, be-all of whether someone's credible. If law enforcement in one

[00:23:28] jurisdiction made a mistake by using him, that doesn't mean that he should be considered credible for this situation. If there are problems with one particular expert, there might be a challenge to get this person's expertise recognized by the court. If that person wishes to testify to is really

[00:23:50] valid and is actually recognized science, then why not just get someone else who's also an expert in the field whose expertise would be recognized to come into court and offer that analysis? The fact is you usually go with the best experts you can find to support your position.

[00:24:12] If the best expert you can find to support your position is someone who's not really well-respected and someone who is problematic, that tells me something about the quality of the analysis to be offered by said alleged expert. Yes. And so the judge was specifically

[00:24:32] going after this TRACS mapping software. His company is Zet-X. It's complicated, but what the judge said in that case, in the Colorado case, is that the scientific and legal community have really said its credibility is lacking and so it shouldn't

[00:24:55] be used. We do know that junk science gets introduced in cases all the time, often by the prosecution. I think people often fall on one side or another where they're pro-prosecution and pro-defense generally. They have those instincts. Maybe it's a personality thing,

[00:25:15] maybe it's a life experience thing. But I think it's better instead of taking one side or another, it's better to look at things holistically. If prosecution shouldn't be using something, then the defense shouldn't be using something if it's just bad data.

[00:25:29] Yeah, that's fair. If it's not going to be accurate. I think it's better to just let's try to get at the truth. And if this is not going to help anyone get the truth, then that is a problem. So when they kind of hold him out as like,

[00:25:43] he's going to clear up this whole alibi thing, he's going to put him here or there. It seems like that is not necessarily going to be true. And I would say it's not going to be

[00:25:54] the case. You want to talk about the media? This is an interesting one. This is some people have said we've been a bit hard on the defense team in the Delphi case.

[00:26:06] But I think this is one area where the defense team, the Delphi case has done a better job than the defense team in Idaho. And that is with media relations. In Delphi, we've seen

[00:26:19] that the defense side has really made a conscious effort to try to woo and court the press. What does that look like? That looks like they're asking for things that align with reporters'

[00:26:39] interests, like is in the interest of reporters to have cameras in the courtroom. So the defense has seen advocating for that position. We've also seen things like David Hennessey is given certain favored YouTubers early access to defense documents before they appear on the

[00:27:01] public site. My case, that's a good way to make those YouTubers feel loyal to you because you're making them feel like they have special access. We see things like that. We see people who are

[00:27:20] have some sort of affiliation with the defense team in Delphi making themselves available for news stories around the times of filing. To help shape the narrative around the case. I mean, reporters are human. If you seem to be aligning with their interests and they're giving you

[00:27:36] and you're giving them information, they might be more inclined to look more kindly upon your cause. That's just the nature of the game. That's human nature. We all like doing things

[00:27:46] easy. Press relations 101. You want to get in front of the story. You want to get out in front of the reporters. So here's one thing reporters tend to not like being blasted as bloodthirsty

[00:27:58] ghouls seeking to kill an innocent man for no reason. Believe it or not, I actually don't think most professions like that. The defense in Idaho has been consistently scorched earth with the press

[00:28:10] needlessly, in my opinion. There was one filing they had where they were talking about how the press wants Koberger to be killed. It was the most unhinged thing. It was totally unnecessary.

[00:28:24] To give you a sense, the prosecution in the case also wants to limit media access. They've been consistently on the same side of the defense in that situation. They're like, we agree with the

[00:28:33] defense, but they're not going around saying you guys want to crucify him. They're just saying we just don't want them in here because that would be a fair situation for the defendant in this.

[00:28:45] So that's fine. That's all you have to do. You don't need to write a whole screed talking about how evil the media is. That's just really a bad idea. I think it's dampened the amount of... I think it's probably going to prove a problem for the coverage because...

[00:29:02] Do you have any theories or thoughts as to why they are going hammer and tongs against the press? Well, I was thinking maybe if they have a sense that locals in Moscow, Idaho are being skeptical

[00:29:18] or irritated by the media, which can often happen when the national press swoops down, that can seem very vulture-like in the wake of a tragedy. Maybe they're hoping to curry favor with

[00:29:28] locals who are also tired of the media presence. But I think it's a mistake because I think the media influences how people view something. So alienating the press to that degree is ensuring that you won't get as much positive coverage as you might want.

[00:29:43] And I think you can thread the needle of pushing for limited media access while not attacking people so personally. I also think it just makes them sound kind of paranoid. I mean,

[00:29:52] if they feel like Brian Koberger is being made to look creepy, I don't know, maybe he just looks like a creepy dude. That's maybe more of a him problem than the press doing something insane.

[00:30:04] I think rising above some of that would look better for them. And I think it's a missed opportunity to manipulate the narrative a bit better. And personally, I don't believe that

[00:30:13] things should be tried in the press, but I am a journalist so I often think of the press relations angle of things. So it's just something that I thought of when they were going off on that.

[00:30:23] You probably shouldn't be doing this. But that kind of does go in with the narrative. So we talked in the last episode on the things that will harm the prosecution of how the prosecution could lose control of the narrative and the cranks could take over.

[00:30:42] And I think that could happen. I tend to think it won't, though. And here's why I think the narrative could end up working against the defense. The people who have been the most pro-Koberger, pro-burger, if you will, as some people say on the Reddits,

[00:31:01] they don't really do their cause much service. People who are pretending to be Brian Koberger's online girlfriend, people who are just basically lunatics projecting their own immense ignorance, even people who are not lunatics, but they just love the mystery too much. They want the cases to

[00:31:17] go unsolved forever unless the perpetrator turns out to be their own POI because it's just more fun that way. I think a lot of these people are either very disturbed or they're losing perspective online and behaving in sort of abhorrent and ridiculous ways. So those people

[00:31:34] are fed and catered to by so-called experts and creators who are desperate for their attention and clicks. You've seen a few of those people in Delphi, I'm sure, but they also exist in Idaho.

[00:31:44] Sometimes it's the same person catering to all the cranks. I think you know who I'm talking about. I would say that they really do a disservice to their cause because it's really a lot of bad behavior, harassment, just nonsense. And I was interested, there was a documentary that

[00:32:03] came out in 2024 called Hashtag Cyber Sleuths, the Idaho Murders. I've not seen it. I'm not going to criticize or praise the documentary because I don't know what the angle was. I don't know whether it took a critical angle towards the cyber sleuths or if it was just

[00:32:20] slobbering all over the cyber sleuths, but I know that the reviews on IMDb were brutal to these people. And I think it gives you a sense that for a lot of people in true crime, people who are interested in true crime, they're sick of this self-aggrandizing,

[00:32:36] ignorant group of people who are just turning everything into a conspiracy theory. They don't like it. That's a turnoff. And I think that will probably prevent them from taking over the narrative. And that's bad for the defense because they love the defense and

[00:32:51] they love Brian Koberger. I think everybody else is either ambiguous or highly suspicious of him. And so when you have your loudest supporters not really selling your cause to that degree, I think that is an obstacle. And it's not one they can overcome in my opinion.

[00:33:09] It's not really even their fault. It's just that's who they've attracted. I think things like the defense delaying endlessly, filing sort of frivolous motions, it just doesn't indicate that they feel they have a strong case. And I think ultimately,

[00:33:26] the DNA sort of cinches it against him as far as extreme obstacles that will be very difficult for them to overcome. I think if the defense pulled off an acquittal in this, it would be nothing

[00:33:38] short of a miracle. And it might require pulling a very, very easily confused jury. __________________ Even if you have an easily confused jury, I think it would be a miracle. I agree. It's bad. It's a bad case against him. Virtually impossible.

[00:33:57] Anyways, thanks so much for listening. Tomorrow, we'll be doing a head-to-head comparison of the two cases, what the heart hurdles for the prosecution are, hurdles for the defense, and we'll be kind of coming out and saying where we think everything stands.

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