The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen's Police Interviews and Prison Calls

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[00:03:04] Quince.com slash msheet. Richard Allens Lounge Sets Content warning, this episode includes discussion of the murder of two children. It also may contain some profanity. Richard Allens So some big news in the Delphi murders case. Of course, this is the murders of 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams in Delphi, Indiana. It occurred on February 13, 2017. Richard Allens And as we all know, the killer was Richard Allens.

[00:03:28] Richard Allens Yes, this was a local CVS manager who was arrested and convicted of the crimes, and he is currently incarcerated. Richard Allens But why are we talking about it? Because it's over. Richard Allens Well, our friend and colleague Tom Webster just recently unearthed some really interesting stuff that we all want to talk about. Richard Allens Let me just stop there for a second. Richard Allens So Tom went to the court and filed the appropriate requests and got some of the exhibits.

[00:03:56] Richard Allens These are exhibits that we all saw in court. Richard Allens We've seen these before. Richard Allens But the general public hasn't gotten to hear or see them yet. Richard Allens And what we're talking about specifically are two police interviews Alan did with police. So on October 13, 2017, with Steve Mullen, then the prosecutor's investigator in Carroll County, and Tony Liggett, who was a detective and is now the sheriff of Carroll County. That was the first interview that we're going to talk about.

[00:04:23] And then October 26, 2022. Did I just say 2017 earlier? I'm like losing my mind. These are both in 2022. So October 26, that was with Jerry Holman, a lieutenant with the Indiana State Police. So Tom was able to get those as well as audio from the prison calls between Alan and his wife, Kathy, and his mother, Janice, that were also played at trial.

[00:04:48] I mean, hundreds of calls were recorded, but these are the kind of big ones that were played at trial because they include confessions or things that turned out to be incriminating. And I should say a number of media organizations have requested these exhibits. They may be on the way for other people as well. As you may or may not know, Judge Gull's court has made it not especially easy to get these exhibits. You have to jump through a lot of hoops.

[00:05:15] Tom Webster deserves a lot of credit because he was the first one to jump through those hoops successfully. And what we're doing here is essentially offering a bit of a smorgasbord of some clips of things that we thought were particularly interesting from these. But in order to get the full context, to watch the videos in the case where there are videos, or to just get the full conversation, you need to go to Tom Webster's channel. We will be including a link to him in our show notes and to some of these videos.

[00:05:43] But you can watch his live that he did where he adds some commentary on what his thoughts are. You can also watch the raw video that he's posted on his channel. So I would just really, really strongly, like this can be your appetizer for this information. But if you want the full context, please go there. We're not going to play everything. We're just going to basically, what we did was because this has already been out there. We just singled out a few moments that we thought had some meaning or some interest to us. But it's not going to give you the full context.

[00:06:12] It's not going to give you the full conversations. To get that, you need to go to Tom Webster's channel. And Tom, he has a life out in California. He interrupted that life. He was at Delphi for most, if not all, the trial. I remember we talked to him quite a bit out there. He's been on this show before. Yeah. So, I mean, he's great. And he did a great job with this. So absolute kudos to him. Our request for exhibits is still pending. He got it done first. He was organized. He was on the ball. And he deserves absolute credit for that.

[00:06:41] So please go check him out. I love his analysis in general. But he also just has, he's very good at research. So, I mean, strongly recommend. Check that out. But full credit goes to him for this big scoop. Are we ready to go? Yes. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:07:11] And this is The Delphi Murders. Richard Allen's police interviews and prison phone calls.

[00:08:01] I think to start out, I'm going to play just the down the hill, guys down the hill audio, just as kind of a, that's the first audio any of us heard in the Delphi murders case. Kevin and I, when we heard Richard Allen's voice in court on some of these audio things, I think we strongly immediately thought this was identical to how he sounds. But, obviously, it's a small snippet. And it's not evidence. It's not enough to have any sort of vocal match.

[00:08:27] So, I mean, that's not something where, you know, the jury convicted him on that. But it is something that just as people who were studying this case for so long and had heard this audio so many times, that clicked things in a big way for both of us. Is that fair to say? That's fair to say. All right. So, here's that audio.

[00:08:59] So, you hear that kind of raspy voice, bit of a twang. Yeah. So, now let's talk about this first. I'm going to, we're going to talk about our clips in chronological order. This first, I mentioned October 13th, 2022. Mullen and Liggett are the two investigators who end up interviewing Allen. This is Steve Mullen, who at that time was an investigator with the prosecutor's department in Carroll County, Indiana.

[00:09:29] And Tony Liggett, at that time, he was a detective with the sheriff's department of Carroll County. He's since gone on to become the sheriff. Yeah. We mentioned that up top. So, that's who they are. And Mullen really seems to be taking the lead in my mind in this interview. He's doing most of the talking between the two of them. His style is very relaxed, very friendly, very putting someone at ease. Liggett has told us in our interview with him that he really thinks that Mullen may be the best interviewer he's ever seen.

[00:09:59] I don't know if that was the one that we played on the show, but he did tell us that, yes. But, yeah. I mean, it's one of those things where it's been interesting to kind of meet some of these people. But we've never been able to interview Steve Mullen for the show. But we're going to hear from him a lot here. So, he's the guy doing most of the talking. You probably will recognize Liggett's voice when he comes in because he has been on the show. So, I'm going to play this. This is Alan talking about what he did on February 13th, 2017.

[00:10:28] The atmosphere at this point is very relaxed. He's just a witness who's helping these guys out. It's very casual. Yeah, they've come to his house. They said, can you come in? They have Mirandized him as appropriate. But I don't think he fully realizes what his situation is. My looking back and watching this again and watching Tom's live, I feel like I'm seeing someone performing. But he's not at the level where it's like it's sunk in.

[00:10:54] Or it may have sunk in, but it's not at the level where it's like I'm in huge trouble. But I kind of, I don't feel like he's as relaxed as he's trying to put out there. But that's just my opinion. Obviously, all this is just interpretations. Yes. From where we're at right now, I think probably, can you help us understand what was going on on Monday, February the 13th? Can you kind of tell us what you were doing that day? And remember the day, the girls? Okay. I don't know the trail. Okay. Yep.

[00:11:28] I went over to my mom's in Peru, Mexico, earlier in the day. I think my mom had hip surgery back then or something. But regardless, my wife is working, throwing it over there and spent the day, not the day. I spent the morning with them. And my sisters come over and they were going to go eat lunch and stuff. And I wasn't about that.

[00:11:57] So I went home. And I remember it was a fairly warm day or warmer than normal. So I think I just put a jacket on and went back out to the trails. Usually we had a, when we go, we walk down the high bridge and walk back and walk down the other side and come back.

[00:12:26] I mean, it wasn't a ritual, but I remember walking down to the bridge. The times, it was, I left my mom's, I was probably around 11, 11, 15. So I think I would have been out there because I didn't do anything else. It would have been around noon, I thought, is when I was out there. I walked down to high bridge.

[00:12:57] Always went out just a little ways, went out a little ways and watched the fish. See if I see any fish down there because I like fishing. Walked back and sat on the, when you turn around and go down the other fork, there's a bench that overlooks and sat there for a few minutes and walked down the, walked back out and left. So that's him describing.

[00:13:25] Now, this, of course, is not the first interaction he's had with the authorities. Previously, in February 2017, right after the murders, he made a statement to then Lieutenant Dan Doolin of the Department of Natural Resources that he was out there more around 1.30. Yeah. So he's shifted his time to earlier. The reason being that if he's gone from the area by 1.30, he can't be the killer.

[00:13:54] If he's there at 1.30, then that puts him in the running. We know that the girls are abducted at 2.13 p.m. because that is captured on Liberty German's video on her phone. That timestamp, basically. We know exactly what time that happens. So if he's gone by 1.30, he's innocent. So suddenly we go from him being there at the time to in this, years later, he's saying, well, it was earlier. So that kind of gives us a sense of where this is going.

[00:14:24] Obviously, Liggett and Mullen know that discrepancy. And, you know, that's going to be something they're thinking about. But here's a problem for Richard Allen. He was seen. When people saw him, and perhaps some of the most important witnesses who saw him were Rayleigh Voorhees and Brie Wilber. And they were reported of a group of four girls. It's often been reported as three. One of the members of the group of four was a very young girl, a child.

[00:14:54] So she was not really, I think, looked at as much of a witness because she was so young. And when people say, well, he said three and it was really four. I mean, I don't really think that's a huge deal. I think that's just, you know, if they're walking in a group and one of them's way shorter than the others, I think you could possibly not see that one or, you know, not really counted appropriately. It seems pretty minor. But anyways, so the reason that these girls are a problem for Allen is because he says he saw them.

[00:15:23] And they say they saw Bridge Guy. And we know what time they were there because Brie Wilber was taking photographs on Snapchat and posting them. So we have timestamps, timestamped images that show when she was there and when that group was there. And that puts Allen on the trails around the time of the murders, what he originally said versus this made-up nonsense that he's spouting in this interview. Anyways, let's listen to him talk about these girls.

[00:15:54] Around noon, it could have been a little before noon or a little afternoon. Walked down back an hour or so, probably 1, 1.30, 1.45, depending on exactly what time it was that I got there that day. I just remember walking down the trail, and I had told him that when I was approaching the trail,

[00:16:19] or the trailhead, I guess is what I'd call it, there was three girls walking off the trail. And I just remember it looking like one of them was probably watching babies and watching the other two because they looked a little younger. And they looked very similar. I don't know if they were sisters or whatever, but the other one didn't necessarily. But I remember seeing them walking off the trailhead, and I didn't really see anybody.

[00:16:51] Another person saw him, and that was Betsy Blair, another witness who was doing her loop, her sort of exercise rounds. And she encountered not only Abby and Libby walking towards the Monon High Bridge, but she saw a man, bridge guy, standing on the first platform of the bridge. So these witnesses are very bad for Alan. This is something that's more subtle evidence than, say, like a bombshell DNA match. But this is something I felt a lot of people missed in the trial, where it's like, no, no, no, this is bad.

[00:17:20] He is sealing his fate here by saying, I saw them, and they're all like, we saw bridge guy. Bridge guy glowered at me. Bridge guy was staring at me like he was waiting for someone else to come. And bridge guy, therefore, is Richard Allen. Yes, because we know exactly, again, what time those girls were there. We know what time Betsy Blair was there. And if Richard Allen saw them, and they saw bridge guy, all the pieces fit together. It's damning.

[00:17:49] So now let's talk about where things take a turn with the interview with Ligon and Mullen. Mullen's, again, very, very nice. You know, I'm just, you know, we're just looking for information. At some point, though, things do take a turn. And that is namely when Mullen and Liga confront Allen with the fact that they have talked to his wife and daughter. They've been going around and doing interviews, and they kind of have come prepared.

[00:18:13] And Allen realizes that this is a lot more serious, because you wouldn't necessarily do that with just a casual witness. Yes. Let's hear and get a little more confrontational. No. You said you were there. Well, sure, I didn't have people that saw you. Oh, okay. But you said you were out of the bridge yourself. There aren't that many people that saw me. I mean, I'm sure I didn't miss that many people. If they walked behind me, I guess.

[00:18:39] You said that you were out of the bridge, this bridge, yourself, that day, around the time when this happened. No, I didn't. You said you walked out onto the bridge. When we talked to you earlier, you said that you walked out to about the first platform or within that area of that bridge. That's what you told us. So we know that you were on the bridge. Of course I was. Okay. And I told you. And with that, you know, we can say that, is this person you? That's the question. Is that person you?

[00:19:09] That's the question we have to answer. Sure. Okay. So if that person is you, we know this person followed the girls all the way to the other side of the bridge and then told them to go down the hill. Follow them. I don't even know what you're talking about. Like you're saying don't. Okay. Okay. So one thing you might notice is that the sound dipped out there.

[00:19:38] There are a number of cuts in these interviews. There's a very simple reason for that. It's because in interviews that were then used as exhibits in court, anything that would potentially violate Allen's rights or be a problem were cut. So I think that was, I believe that was stipulated between the parties. So the fact that Allen, at least in the second interview, repeatedly denied the opportunity to take a polygraph examination.

[00:20:04] Polygraph examinations are not admissible in court in the vast majority of instances. So that's something where the jury shouldn't know about that because that shouldn't influence their decision. That's right. I think it's entirely possible that for a jury, a member of the jury to hear, oh, he refused a lie detector test. Why would he do that if he had nothing to hide? That's an understandable feeling for a member of the jury or frankly for a member of the public to have.

[00:20:30] But you do not want a person to be convicted for that reason. And so the references to the polygraph were edited out. There were also a number, I'm sure, as I'm sure you all recall, there were a number of motions in Limonade in this case where it was held that certain things could not be mentioned during the trial, like certain third party suspects. So I suspect some of the things edited out of some of these interviews would be references to them.

[00:20:58] So it's not like the police are sitting around on iMovie and like, oh, here's the most interesting stuff. It's very specific. Things that are not allowed in, whether it's polygraphs or references to, frankly, Kagan Klein and the Kleins, those are taken out. But that is just because, OK, the court said, yeah, take those out. Everything else remains in. Nothing else is like they're not goofing around with anything else. So let's see how this all ends. Are you arresting me? Well, I really try.

[00:21:28] I want to try to get this thing worked out. I might pray to leave or not. You've always been pretty late. Thank you. You're an asshole. So with that, Richard Athlon leaves when he says thank you again. That just sounds so much like Bridge Guy to me. That's just my, you know, that's what I hear. Now, let's jump ahead to October 26th, 2022.

[00:21:57] So what happened between the end of that first interview and the beginning of the second interview? Richard Allen's house is searched on October 13th. So after that interview, his house gets searched immediately and they find his Sig Sauer firearm. And that is tested by Melissa Oberg, who was then a forensic scientist with the Indiana State Police Laboratory in Indianapolis.

[00:22:23] And what she finds is that there's sufficient agreement between extractor and ejection marks on a cartridge that she's ejected from the Sig Sauer and the cartridge found at the scene. So in other words, a bullet from Richard Allen's gun is found to have been left at the crime scene. Yes.

[00:22:49] And the police have this information now before going into this second interview. But you can tell that they're still are coming off of looking at other people for the case, because what Lieutenant Holman is doing in this interview is and we're going to hear this in a minute. But he's giving Allen a lot of outs and Allen is just not taking them. And you can hear Allen's demeanor is different. In the other one, I thought he sounded friendly at first. Then he sounded really irritated.

[00:23:17] You know, kind of, you know, emotions closer to the surface in this. It's a different story. Let's listen. Because if, for example, my buddy's fuel pump went out in his truck, you said, hey, can I borrow your old truck? And I said, yeah. So it's going to be two weeks and that being five or six months. That would be a significant time and time frame that my buddy's DNA would be in that truck.

[00:23:45] Is there anything that you've loaned out for besides your family members? We don't care about your wife's DNA. Not that I can think of. You never loaned a truck out for your, sorry, it's a Ford Focus? Is that what it is? I mean, if I do, I certainly don't remember. Most of my family has vehicles, so extra vehicles. Yeah. The same thing like my son. He sometimes will come over and leave his coat. I'll wear it for a couple months or something like that.

[00:24:15] Or my son-in-law, he'll spend money on guns. He's a gun freak. He likes to buy guns. And then he'll be like, hey, can I borrow 500 bucks? And then he'll give me one of his guns, so it's collateral. And then when he gets the money back. Anything like that? No. I don't know. Okay. So, again, not taking any out. Yeah, so what Holman is doing there, to be clear, is he is giving Richard Allen the chance

[00:24:43] to say, oh, sometimes I've loaned my gun out to someone else. And if he's loaned his gun out to someone else, it's possible that that other person was using the gun at some point and had been out in the area of the crime scene and left the bullet there. Either because that person was themselves involved in the crime, or that person was there earlier for innocent reasons and ejected the bullet at them.

[00:25:11] But so Richard Allen was given opportunities to shift the blame and create doubt, and he did not take them for whatever reason. Interestingly enough, Holman at one point asked him, like, were you ever on Ron Logan's land or just out in that area, maybe mushroom hunting? Now, for all you non-Americans, mushroom hunting does not mean, like, shooting at mushrooms. It's like you're looking for mushrooms. They call it hunting. But, you know, there's a scenario where perhaps you got mushroom hunting, you have your gun, maybe you hear something that freaks you out,

[00:25:40] you rack it, eject a bullet, something goes wrong, and then you, oh, it's just a deer. No worries. So, like, there's situations where you can get your bullet ejected from your gun out near the crime scene, but you don't have anything to do with it. So what Holman did with this interview is essentially established that Richard Allen isn't claiming any of those things. There's no explanation. And, in fact, Allen is, like, denying reality in some of these things. Beyond the bullet, beyond the cartridge, I should say.

[00:26:10] You know, there's points, and we saw this kind of in the previous clip we listened to with the Mullen-Liggett interview, but at one point he's like, oh, I wasn't out there. Well, you just said you were on the bridge. Oh, well, you know, okay. Let's listen here. There could have been somebody that seen me that I didn't see. What I'm telling you is they didn't see me anywhere near the girls or anybody else because I wasn't around anybody that day. Okay.

[00:26:35] Like, so we obviously know that's not true because this whole initial thing is that he said he saw these three girls. Yeah. So he walked right past them, and now he's saying, I'm not around them. It's just, I don't know. He's not doing a particular – he's just deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny. Now, I don't necessarily think that has much bearing on guilt or innocence because if you're innocent, you're also going to deny being involved. Hey, I didn't do this.

[00:26:57] But just some of the things – like, some of the battles he picks here just don't really comport with, you know, reality even beyond what the police are saying. They don't comport with reality from what he said. So let's go ahead. This is a long clip, and we can pause it if you want at points and discuss or whatnot. But this is where things get really weird for me in this interview. At one point, Holman brings in Kathy Allen, who's also being interviewed.

[00:27:27] And it's really hard to understand what she's saying here. I think there's been some guesses. We could probably guess. She's blubbering, essentially. Like, I don't – like, she's not just crying. She's, like, incoherent at times. And this is – their body language – if you watch the videos on Tom's channel, the body language to me is disturbing. And you're someone who's very skeptical about the use of body language generally.

[00:27:54] I'm not going to convict anyone based on body language. But, I mean, I have eyes, and I can see a husband and wife interacting. And there's a level of discomfort here that I think is interesting, especially given that now Kathy Allen, you know, is asserting his innocence and whatnot, you know. And we'll hear that in the phone calls. But in this moment, it seems like there's been some questions. And she's asking him those questions. And we're going to hear his responses.

[00:28:21] John, how did a bullet from your gun get out there? I don't know. Because they said it came out of the bullet? I know that's what they're – believe me, that's what they're telling me. But how did it get there? I don't know. There was one in your box about your dresser to match there. They showed me that picture too. I can't explain it. You would think he'd be – I'm just going to pause here.

[00:28:50] You would think he'd be able to explain why there's one in a box in his dresser. Yeah. Like, that's some – like, you're going to be like, oh, well, no, I just put it in there because it was rolling around. Something. So I struck – I always felt he had a somewhat similar tone to her. I mean, he's more angry with Holman. But here it's still the kind – there's a flatness to it. Yes. And, like, it's someone who's, like – he's getting excited. He's like, I don't know. But it's like there's not – I don't know. It's just weird. And I don't –

[00:29:19] I can't either answer that. You don't want me to know. I understand. Me either. And that's what I'm trying to tell you. You want to keep asking me and I just keep telling you I can't explain it. I don't know how to explain something that isn't possible. But I know – this is what I do know.

[00:29:46] I know that no bullet from my gun was connected with a murder in any way, shape, or form. And there's no way a bullet from my gun would have been near Abby and Libby's murder or anything else because I never even seen those girls. Period. And I didn't even have my gun that day. So, that's what I'm trying to say.

[00:30:15] I don't know how to make that any clearer. I don't know how to make that any clearer. I don't know how to make somebody understand. I get what he's saying. I don't have a way to explain it. You're like, there's a witness that said it was you out there. Dear, I don't know. And I'm like, how did they know it was you? So they said they showed her a picture. And I'm like, of course you were out there.

[00:30:45] If they see me out there, they see me out there, dear. And I told them – But were you on the bridge? I told them I was on the bridge. I went out to the first trestle. Oh, okay. That first thing that – I don't remember you telling me that. Which way? So I told you weren't on it. But I didn't – It doesn't – hon, you're not in any trouble. You didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. That was right. Huh? I didn't do anything wrong. I'm sorry.

[00:31:14] Well, don't worry about it. I – hon. You told me you weren't. Huh? You told me you weren't, so I just – No. I told you that I walked. All right. Let's pause that for a second. She says, you told me you weren't, meaning you told me you weren't on the bridge that day. Yes. So he lied to her. Yes. She's remembering that. She's remembering that. It's interesting, the voice kind of dipping from the more hysterical to suddenly more calm like you told me you weren't.

[00:31:43] I mean, like – You would think she would wonder why he lied to her. Do you think this is a – I mean, when – every marriage is different. Every marriage is a mystery, right? To those on the outside of it. So how Kevin and I might interact would be very different than how another couple might interact, and so I don't want to just put my own experience on this.

[00:32:10] But do you think – I mean, is this what you would – is this what you would expect? To me, he's talking to her like she's a child. Like he's reassuring a scared child. Don't worry, honey. The monsters aren't going to come out. It's like – it's weird. I just find it weird. If you were hitting me up with some of this response, I would be very concerned, I guess is that – that's all I'll say.

[00:32:35] And if she was on the other foot and you told me you weren't on the bridge and now you're suddenly telling me you were on the bridge, I would find that incredibly concerning. And I know it's a conversation they probably had in 2017 and this is 2022. But I would think if one of us was in the vicinity of the scene of one of the biggest crimes in

[00:33:01] our city's history, I would be inclined to remember every detail you told me. And she seems to be remembering very clearly that he told me he was not on the bridge. And that makes sense because I think if you came back and you were like, wow, I was in the vicinity of one of the biggest crimes in our city's history. But don't worry. Like, I wasn't that close. I wasn't on that specific road. I would remember that because that would be reassuring. Like, oh, okay.

[00:33:28] In case there was any doubt in the back of my mind, I know he wasn't there. He wasn't there there. He was just around. So I could understand that from her perspective where she gets that reassurance. Oh, well, you were on the trails? Oh, but you weren't on the bridge. Okay. So you really – you really didn't see that much. You couldn't really be that much help. Whatever. Makes sense. But now – now he's adamant he told her something different. So let's hear more from him. I love you, baby.

[00:33:58] I don't know what they're trying to do, but I know that that's not what I told you. I love you. I just – this is – you're not going to get away with this.

[00:34:35] This is exactly what I would never want for you. And there's nothing I can do about it. I'm not going to say I did something I didn't do. And I know you know me. And I know you know that I would never do this.

[00:35:16] All I can say, hon, is you know me. I know – and I know you know me. And I know you. What a freaking thing to say to somebody in this moment. Yeah, I always found it interesting. He isn't acting – he isn't asking her, what do you think? What do you make of all of this? What's going through your head? And he is telling her what is going through her head. Yeah. He's telling her what to think.

[00:35:41] This is why it's interesting when the defense experts came and talked about how he was such a fragile egg, you know? I mean, it sounds like there's some truth to that given his employment history and, you know, flaming out at every sort of, you know, position of responsibility he ever had. But when Kathy Allen's portrayed as, like, fully the dominant partner in this relationship, that's not what I'm seeing here.

[00:36:04] I'm seeing a man telling his wife what she needs to think and treating her like a child and then basically gaslighting her when she points out that his story didn't match what she originally heard. So it's interesting that when he sees her kind of on the brink of maybe not believing in him anymore, these are the kind of manipulative tactics he breaks out. Yeah. And it's really not like – I mean, I think if you and I were in this situation, it would be like, what do you think?

[00:36:33] I want to know what you think because, like, then we can talk about it and I can address your concerns. And if it was a situation where something from my – a piece of my property or something linked to my property is found in the scene of a crime and I honestly know that there's no way I could have put it there, I'd be like, Anya, did you have something to do with this? I would also be like, get me a lawyer. Get me a lawyer. Do you have any explanation, Anya?

[00:37:02] I mean, do you have any explanation for how our piece of property ended up out there? Could you have lent out our gun to somebody who did this? Like, you know, your weird friend? I mean, like, is there any – like, we would be trying to figure it out together what happened. And maybe that involves bringing in a lawyer at this point. I think we probably would have brought in a lawyer from the beginning. But that's neither here nor there. I would be incredibly offended if you were hitting me up with, like, well, I know what you're thinking. No, you don't.

[00:37:30] Like, especially not right now. I mean, like, no, we need to figure some stuff out and maybe meet with a lawyer where we're, you know, like, I don't know. I mean, geez. It's really striking. And I was really – I think a lot of people were disturbed by their interaction in the courtroom. And, again, like, Kathy Allen's come back around, you know, he's innocent. This isn't over, all this nonsense. But, I mean, I think it's a situation where we're seeing here the cracks start to form.

[00:38:01] And that's obviously changed. And we'll hear how it's changed later on. When we get to the cause. Yeah. So, things get more heated with Jerry Holman. He comes back in. The beginning, they kind of, you know, there's a bit of more of trying to build rapport. But at some point when Allen's just saying, it can't be true, it can't be true, it can't be true, things start getting more heated. Holman starts pressing him more. So, let's listen. I guess you do. There is no way that evidence is going to show that I did this. Right fucking here, Rick.

[00:38:29] You got one piece of evidence that I can't explain. Multiple. I'm not showing you my whole fucking hand here. I don't care. I'm showing you I'm done talking. And now you're going to drag your fucking wife and your daughter through this because you're too fucking bullheaded to get out in front of this and admit that you made a mistake. And whatever the fuck happened out there, we'll never fucking know. Because you're too big of a fucking bullheaded. Go ahead. So, tell you I did something. Tell me the truth. That I didn't do. The truth, Rick.

[00:38:58] I've told you the truth and you don't want to hear it. The evidence tells me otherwise. The evidence clearly indicates you're involved in this. No, it doesn't. It fucking does. It doesn't. We probably should have put a profanity warning on this episode. So, sorry. We did. Oh, we did? Oh, gosh. Thank you. Things are getting more heated. And then I guess it ends very heated. Yeah.

[00:39:24] And again, one thing we experienced in court was, as we said, it cuts. The audio and the video cuts because they keep, Holman is continuously trying to get him to do a polygraph seemingly. Because that's yet another opportunity for police to confront somebody with, like, hey, look, you're, you know, this is spiking. You're lying. It's yet another opportunity to get someone on the record, essentially. Yeah.

[00:39:49] And I think at some point there was an exchange involving Kathy Allen where, I think Holman, correct me if I'm wrong, we were told he said something to Kathy Allen, like, oh, don't you agree that if you're innocent there's no reason not to take a polygraph? Yeah, something like that. And she's agreeing to that. But no, look, Rick's not taking one. What do you make of that? So there's a lot of cuts. So this is going to, like, get heated. And then it's going to get really heated. And then it's going to go back to normal. But when we interviewed Lieutenant Holman, he talked about, you know, you're trying to match somebody's energy. But you're also trying to implement strategies.

[00:40:18] Okay, being friendly is not working. What do we do next? Push him a bit. Well, that's not working. You know, maybe yell at him. Let's see. Get this person to open up. And I'm, you know, with Alan in this, he just seems so defeated. There's, like, a real apathy to his affect. There's a real kind of, like, kind of, you know, sighing, rolling his eyes. It's really not, really doesn't seem to be, like, a lot getting through to him in this interview when you watch the video.

[00:40:47] Which, again, check it out on Tom's channel. So I'll play this. Oh, and what Alan is referencing in the beginning of this is he's angry that his wife is upset. Yes. You're going to pay for what you're doing to my wife. You want to fuck with me, fuck with me. But you leave my wife out of this. Fuck, leave me out of it. No, you're involved in this. You're fucking around. Say it, Rick. No, it's not.

[00:41:17] I can see you're getting pissed off. I understand. I understand. Did you not see my wife? Did you not see these fucking two girls dead? That's what happened. You got fucking pissed off at them. You fucking dragged them down the fucking hill. And you fucking killed. Don't fucking tell me you didn't. I didn't kill anybody. Don't shit. There's that cut. You're fucking upset for a reason. Not because of us. Because of you. You're trying to tell me that I'm not making this fucking round shit up, Rick. It is what it is.

[00:41:47] I'm done talking. Arrest me. Happy to. Be fucking happy to. Because I tried to fucking help you and you wouldn't fucking do it. Oh, you're helping me. I'm guilty and I know it. And I'm going to fucking prove it. Okay. And I'm not paying for any of this shit. You're paying. This is on you. This ain't on me. It's fucking on you, Rick. You had your fucking opportunity. And then they arrested him. And then they arrested him.

[00:42:17] That was October 26th. Next, what the next exhibits we're going to talk about are the jail or rather I should say prison phone calls. Of course, when you're in jail or prison, all of your phone calls in and out are recorded. Except those to your attorneys. Yes. It was actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe at the beginning of these calls, there was a message saying, hey, this call is being recorded. When I heard this, I thought that's Bridge Guy.

[00:42:43] So I'm going to play the original message and then I'm going to, I basically put it back to back with Bridge Guy a few times so you can hear it. So this is something that's at the beginning of the phone calls where they say, hey, you pick up your phone and it's someone from a prison calling you and there's a recorded message saying, hey, this is so-and-so from the prison. That's what you're going to be playing us, right? That's right. All right. Here we go. Hello. This is a free call from Ricky. An inmate at the Indiana Department of Corrections Westville Correctional Facility.

[00:43:13] That Ricky was, I mean, did you hear that when we, was that just me? To me, you singled that out. I believe I've heard other people both as a trial and since singled that out. This sounds really, really a lot like Bridge Guy, identical to Bridge Guy. I hear that. But I also thought his voice, especially during the Mullen interrogation to me, sounded a lot like Bridge Guy. The Mullen-Ligget interview really sounded like Bridge Guy to me too. But this was...

[00:43:41] So to me, by the time we got to this, I was already... Yeah, you were sold. All right. Here we go. This is... I'm going to just play them back to back. Just, I think... Also, this is shorter, so you can kind of hear both. So here we go. It's downhill. Ricky. It's downhill. Ricky. It's downhill. Ricky. Ricky. That raspiness. It's not like a booming, manly voice. It's kind of this, you know?

[00:44:10] And the down-the-hill portion of that, to me, sounds identical to him saying Ricky. When we were hearing him again and again, all I was thinking was, this is the voice of Bridge Guy. This is Bridge Guy. So, this first one is not a confession. This first recorded conversation between Kathy Allen and Richard Allen, it's from November 14th, 2022, shortly after his arrest, obviously.

[00:44:41] And he's... We're kind of hearing him not doing so well, though. So he's crying in this. He's been hard to understand. And this interview was singled out in court because he said something to the effect of, I'll just tell them what they want to hear. Some people took that to be incriminating. I didn't. That sounds like it could be ambivalent, ambiguous, rather, I should say, ambiguous. Because you could be saying, I'm going to tell them what they want to hear, the truth. Or you could be saying, I can lie to them and tell them I was involved just to get this over with.

[00:45:10] So I didn't think that was particularly interesting or incriminating. But I'm just giving you a taste of this conversation between them. And also, maybe what Richard Allen really cares about here. Will you just let everybody know how much I love him? Of course I will. They already know him. No, they don't. Yes, they do. Nobody loves me anymore. Nobody loves me anymore.

[00:45:40] When I've, I think I've referred to Richard Allen in the past as sort of like an overgrown toddler. Like, just picture the neediest sort of being you could imagine. And a toddler, I mean, a toddler wants independence oftentimes. That's that stage of development where human beings are kind of growing and they want to do things themselves and they want to be a big kid and whatever. This guy is just like an infant.

[00:46:06] I mean, just the raw need of like most important thing here is that everybody loves them and people still love them. And no, no one's going to love me anymore. Now let's hear this weird mood shift that I saw. And I just wanted to like, I just found this. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I'll be curious of your take.

[00:46:49] Like, what is that? He's saying, did you go back to work? He's crying. He's blubbering. Did you go back to work? No, they don't want me there. They're, you know, worried for me. So she's basically saying, I can't go back to work. They're worried. You know, someone might do something to Kathy Allen. She's been put in a bad position by Allen's arrest and, you know, she could be a target therefore. So I just thought it was weird. He's like crying and weeping one moment and then the next. It's like, oh, okay. That just seemed like a weird mood shift there. Yeah, that's fair.

[00:47:18] It's like suddenly we're not talking about me and my feelings and we're talking about the reality facing my wife. And it's like, yeah, not as much to cry about there, is there? So this is not a confession. Again, this is a call between. I mean, I believe this is. Let me just double check before I say it wrong. This is from April 2nd, 2023. And this is with Janice. So this is with Richard Allen's mother.

[00:47:50] And he's not confessing anything here. He's letting her know about a big new development in his life. Richard Allen did not grow up religious. He did not grow up going to church. But that is about to change. So I will. I've got a family that's always going to love me no matter what. Yes, you do. I've got God, so. I've got God, so. And I know that he's.

[00:48:18] I know that Kathy's got God and you've got God. And. Yeah. Yeah. That's good enough for me, so. He's saying he's got God now. He talks in depth about how he's found Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. In this call with Janice, and they talk about religion. And he talks about how he's recently been saved. He's recently found God. This is a really big deal for him. And this is what is going to start off this recent spate.

[00:48:45] This subsequent spate of confessions, which begin the next day. Where he is, you know. What we're seeing is basically a man saying, in order to get right with God, I need to confess my sins. And he's going to do so to his family, his loved ones, who he feels he needs their support. But this is where the problem comes in, as we are going to hear. So, this is from April 3rd, 2022.

[00:49:13] This is the first recorded confession in this line. Remember that not all confessions were recorded on the recorded line between Al and his family members. He confessed to Dr. Monica Walla, his prison psychologist. He also confessed to numerous guards and... Suicide companions. Suicide companions who were ensuring that he was not harming himself. So, let's hear what he has to say.

[00:49:41] I just wanted to apologize to you. What's going on, Suicide I did it. No, I did it. What? I killed Abby. I killed Abby and Libby. No, you didn't. Yes, I did. No, you didn't, Darren. Just popping in here. She sounds like she's talking to a child. Yeah. No, you didn't, dear.

[00:50:09] Like, that's like, mom, I went to the moon today and fought the moon monsters. It's like, it's a weird level of dismissiveness. Yes, it is. Because that wouldn't be... Well, I mean, listen, everyone reacts to things differently. I think a lot of people's reaction would be more alarmed. Alarmed, curious, not... It's an odd reaction. It's an odd reaction. Everything about these two's interactions is weird and bizarre, in my opinion.

[00:50:39] Let's get back to it. Yes, I did. Don't say anything. I don't know why. No, you didn't. No, you didn't, Darren. You're not feeling well. There's something wrong. They've messed up your meds or something there. No, I mean, I evidently did it. No, you didn't.

[00:51:08] Why would you say that? Because maybe I did. No, you didn't, Darren. I think I did. No, you didn't. They are screwing with you there, and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. There's something wrong. They are messing with you. They are messing with your mind. Did Dad tell you I called? Yeah.

[00:51:39] What did I say to him? I don't know. I talked to your mom, but she called me in, and we're just worried about you because something's not right. Is there a way to talk to Dad? No, honey. I'm not with them right now. And there's something wrong. They're screwing with you there. What did they say to Dad?

[00:52:07] They have done something to your food, or they've done something to your neck. And there's something wrong that you ever say you did anything, because I know you didn't. I think I did. No, you didn't. Why would you say that? Because I think I did. No, you didn't, Darren. No, you didn't.

[00:52:38] I wish I could say I didn't. I don't know. You don't know. See, exactly. There's something wrong. They're screwing with you. They're trying to get you to say things. They're trying to mess with your mind. No, I'd be safe, I guess. There's something wrong. No, you don't.

[00:53:09] I just wish they would kill me or let me apologize to the families, at least. Dear, don't talk anymore. Just don't talk anymore, okay? I'm sorry. Don't talk anymore. I need to get a hold of somebody there.

[00:53:47] Thank you for using GTL. Okay. I have a couple observations. Do you have any? Ladies first. No curiosity. Immediate, no, you didn't. I'd be very curious to know where Kathy Allen got this strange idea that people at the prison were, quote, messing with Richard Allen's meds. Or doing something to his food. Yeah. I wonder where that came from.

[00:54:15] I mean, did she just make that up wholesale or did she get that from some people? And if she got that from some people, it's really weird that it never came up at trial, isn't it? Yes. Wouldn't that make someone in Kathy Allen's position maybe consider, I don't know, maybe she got spun. Just the thought.

[00:54:38] Because, like, listen, I mean, if he's being poisoned in his food or there's something inappropriate going on with his meds, then that would be something to bring up. All that was brought up was that he was put on Haldol, which if you talk to anybody with actual experience with Haldol who isn't trying to use it to make some kind of partisan point in this case, it's not going to prompt you to confess to things you didn't do. It's not that kind of medication. It's used as an antipsychotic. It's used to calm people down when they're in the middle of psychosis.

[00:55:07] Or, in this case, whatever Richard Allen was going through. The lack of curiosity, as you say, is very striking. I think if you said something that I found ludicrous, I would at the very least want to know why you were thinking that. I also found it interesting that she was telling him just to be quiet. But she let the conversation go on for a while.

[00:55:30] I think quite possibly that one reason why she became in this and in other calls very quick to try to end the conversations is, I think she had full awareness that these conversations were being recorded. And she did not want him to say things that would hurt him at trial. You know, and I understand that, trying to end it, because you don't want him to hurt his case. But at the same time, the lack of curiosity gets me.

[00:55:58] I think if there was some, if somebody I loved was in this situation, I would want to know. You know, I think her, essentially, you can see the kind of pressure campaign from her starting, where, no, you did not, no, you did not, no, you did not. I don't want to hear it. Stop talking. He's not getting the reaction he wants from her, which seemingly is for somebody to listen to him. And she's not providing that.

[00:56:25] So then you can see he's kind of, he did this boundary test where it's like, he just hits her up. I did it. I killed Abby and Libby. And I think he's hoping she'll let me explain. And she will tell me that she and others will still continue to love me afterwards. And she's not giving that to him. And in fact, when she's not getting the, like, level of retraction that she's happy with, because you can, you know, she's, I mean, she gets him to say, well, maybe I did it.

[00:56:54] Like, he kind of withdraws a bit. She kind of pushes back hard enough where he's like, I think maybe I did. Although then he keeps saying things like, I really want to apologize to the family. So he doesn't really come off it. He just kind of moderates his tone a bit. You know, she's, she starts crying then. It's like, it's, it's, it's a campaign to get him to stop saying things that she does not want to hear. And it's, it's very, it's very forceful.

[00:57:20] So also, I think I said, I felt Richard Allen was sort of dominating her in that interview. When he's basically telling her what to think. Now she's telling him what to think. The roles are reversed. She's talking to him like he's the child. She's got to mother him. She knows what's best. And she's going to make sure that, you know, little Ricky's mistakes don't necessarily catch up with him. Obviously unsuccessfully. And what he wants most in the world is continued assurances of her love and his mother's love.

[00:57:49] And he wants, that's, she recognizes that and that is her power over him. Yes. Now I think his, his mother at one of these calls, I don't know if this is a cliff we show, but his mother in one of these calls does give him that unconditional support. She says, no matter what, I will love you forever. So she, he gets that from her to a certain extent, although she still denies that, you know, she still denies him the opportunity to be heard about the murders. But Kathy never gives that.

[00:58:18] Kathy never tells him, I will love you even if you murdered two kids. So he never gets that unconditional support from Kathy. Because what she's giving him is not unconditional support because it is contingent upon him being factually innocent of the crime. So in, I think in a situation like that, you know, if you're, if you're the person who's the perpetrator, you look at that and they will stop loving me. If, if I continue down this route, they do not unconditionally love me.

[00:58:45] I mean, I guess you'd know that they still don't unconditionally love you. Like whatever's going on is just a farce, but you know, maybe sometimes it's easier to live with that than, you know, otherwise. Well, I mean, uh, a facsimile of love is better than no love at all. Yeah. For at least, you know, these fragile people. So let's talk about, this is a, so that was April 3rd, 2022.

[00:59:14] This seems to be May 10th, 2022. There are two calls from this. In this, we have Richard Allen talking about how he's losing his mind and also note, you know, one thing we heard about in prison and we're going to talk to people who know more about this soon, hopefully. But one thing we talked about, uh, at court was that the defense's own expert at one point, Dr. Deanna Dwenger, talked about what a psychotic episode would look like.

[00:59:40] And one thing that would often, you know, there are situations where someone who's having a psychotic episode can be calmer. It's not always going to be ranting and raving, screaming. That's not always going to be the demeanor. So, I mean, I don't think we should necessarily look at that alone. He sounds very calm here. Yes. He's very calm, but that to me is not the be all end all.

[01:00:01] What is perhaps more significant than that is that if you listen to these all together, Allen is consistently, he has a goal and he's working towards that goal. And he's not saying anything that's beyond the realm of possibility. And what he's saying is organized and he's trying to persuade people of things. And when you see someone in a psychotic episode, often it's very disorganized, disjointed thinking. It's things that aren't really there. It's, you know, the TV told me that I have to go outside and put on a hat.

[01:00:30] You know, it's like a level of disorganization and communications that I just don't feel like we really see here. Yeah, I agree completely. Just because he's calm, that's not necessarily everything. But the fact that he's, you know, he's trying to tell them something and he keeps on working towards that. And when they deny him, he keeps coming back and well, OK, but hear me out. You know, he's trying to get that assurance. He's working toward a goal and what he's saying is organized around that goal. So here's May 10th, number one.

[01:01:01] No, I just think maybe I've lost my mind. Oh, no, honey. We've all lost our minds at this point. I can trust Brad and Andy then? Yes, you can, sweetheart. Yes. Let's not talk about anything that we don't need to. But, you know, there are lawyers, honey.

[01:01:30] I find it interesting that she calls Brad and Andy, a.k.a. Bradley Rosie and Andrew Baldwin, their lawyers. They're his lawyers, right? I mean. Yes, absolutely. Who are they working for? Him. Yes. Because even when you are a married couple, it's entirely possible there are circumstances where what's best for one party is not what's best for the other party. There's always possibilities of conflicts.

[01:01:59] And certainly in this case, it seems very clear that Richard Allen's interests may not be totally in line with Kathy Allen's interests. And so that's why I, for one, was very gratified when at some point during the process we did learn that Kathy Allen had her own attorney looking after her interests. Yeah. But honestly, this doesn't really gratify me that much because, again, who are they working for and what does their client want?

[01:02:29] That's ultimately what's important. And if it's the situation where Rosie and Baldwin felt like Allen was confessing because he was having a psychotic break, they very easily could have filed something around his mental health, around competency and things like that. And be like, he's hurting his case. He's doing, you know, we need to take care of that issue before we even go to trial. Because he's not competent. He can't help in his defense if we think he's innocent and he keeps confessing. That's harming his defense. That's a problem.

[01:02:58] But they never did that. Weird. Anyways, so yeah. So this is all one, you know, one big team seemingly. What do you make of him asking her if they can trust Rosie and Baldwin? That seems really weird. I wonder what precipitated that. Yes, because at this point, you said this was in May? Yeah. And they were appointed in November. So he had had these people as his attorney for about six months. Yeah.

[01:03:31] Worthy or not at this late date. I sometimes wonder if they were more busy working on Kathy Allen than their actual client. Because, I mean, that's what I hear in this. That's just my opinion. I don't know that. That's just speculation, obviously. I don't know. I don't know. We do know there were at least some visits to visit Allen in person. Which always seemed to occur around, you know, immediately. The aftermath of that was his mental health would start deteriorating in a very notable way to the point where multiple witnesses commented on that at trial.

[01:04:00] So the lawyers show up. They talk to him. He freaks out. So, yeah. That happened more than once. That happened. That was the pattern. Everyone observed that. The lawyers are coming. This is going to go, you know, his mental health is going to go to hell. So at one point, Dr. John Martin, who was his psychiatrist at Westville, talked about how I believe that he made a comment about one of the lawyers being the bad cop and one of them being the good cop.

[01:04:25] And, of course, whenever any of this would come up in court in pretrial or during trial, you know, Brad Rose would immediately be on his feet. Oh, we can't talk about that, basically. And I would love to have been a fly on the wall. Like, what was going on with these people where, you know, there was this weird, weird vibes between client and attorneys? Yes. We'll never know because attorney-client privilege. No, yeah. They're never going to talk about it. But, I mean, it raises concerns. Yes.

[01:04:57] There are lawyers. I need to tell you something anyway. Okay. Are you sure you want to talk to me over the phone? I have to. Okay.

[01:05:17] You didn't know that I did this. What? No, you didn't, dear. There's no way. There's no way, dear. I hope you still love me. Dear, there's no way.

[01:05:49] Okay. I hope you still love me. I always would go love you, honey, but no. You have not done anything. And I think you are not well. So you don't need to be saying you did something you didn't do. This is the first time I've been able to talk to you and...

[01:06:19] Were you just not allowed to call me or... I don't know what's going on, hon. Okay. I'm definitely going to lose my mind now, though. Don't. Don't.

[01:06:55] Don't. And nothing... This isn't a big thing, but one thing that does jump out at me is, boy, are there a lot of long pauses in these conversations. You know. It's like both sides are waiting for some cue from the other or waiting for something. I don't know. It feels very awkward. This guy is the neediest person in the world. Yes. I mean, this is the neediest, most pathetic... Like... I mean, I remember... I don't think this was one of the clips we included, but at one point when I was listening

[01:07:24] to Tom's Live, there was a portion where Alan says, I'm going to take care of myself like I'm a man. I haven't seen any evidence of that in any of this. It's just like, let me just prop myself up on my family because I'm just... I mean, I think this is a guy who went out there to feel like a man. He went out there to those trails that day to feel like a man, to dominate women or girls, whoever he came across.

[01:07:52] And, you know, he's not. He's just pathetic. It's... I don't... I also don't... I don't understand why people would be standing by him to this extent without recognizing reality. I think there's something noble and something, like, understandable of, like, accepting what your loved one did and still loving them. That's honest. I know he killed those people, but he's still my son and I love him and I'm going to be

[01:08:22] there for him even though I don't approve what he did, you know? But there's something in the way where people kind of twist themselves into knots to try to make themselves believe that somebody's innocent, even though obviously it's... Other things have crossed their minds here, in my opinion. And the evidence is just overwhelming against them. There's something that speaks to a real level of denial.

[01:08:51] And that's sad because I don't... I don't think you're living a real life if you're just wallowing in denial and basically holding on for someone who did one of the worst things you can do. Because, I mean, these are two kids. And to step beyond just these phone calls for a moment, these women's lack of curiosity about the events of February 13th, 2017 also manifested itself in other ways.

[01:09:19] Because I recall whenever there was a witness who was going to testify in some detail about what Richard Allen did to these girls, they would leave the courtroom. They would not be present. They did not want to hear it. When Pat Cicero, the CSI expert, originally testified at the three-day hearings, you know, Janice and Kathy were out of there. Richard Allen kind of had a big success that day because he was transferred to Cass County, you know, so that was a big deal for him. He comes over. He's smiling towards the empty seats where his family used to be.

[01:09:49] They couldn't stick around to hear that blood spatter talk because, you know... And it's interesting because, I mean, it's horrible to hear no matter what. But, I mean, if you don't think he did it... And on the day when Richard Allen was sentenced and the families got their opportunity to speak and to tell the world, specifically to tell Richard Allen, here is how your crime affected us,

[01:10:16] these women also chose not to be present for that. I think there's a certain type of person where it's like, what I don't know. My ignorance can protect me. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, that's one way to live your life. But I don't think that's really living. And, you know, I just will point out that in many cases, you know, the famous one being Dennis Rader, a.k.a. BTK, you know, people don't always stand by their man in the face of that.

[01:10:44] And sometimes when people do, it's with the acknowledgement that, yes, they are guilty, but I still love them. Something went wrong mentally and I'm going to be there for them no matter what. That's unconditional love. I don't know what this is. What's the next call? This is part two of May 10th. Richard Allen continues to be a very needy person. Yeah.

[01:11:14] You still love my baby?

[01:12:05] Okay. Why are you still going to love me?

[01:12:33] And here's another part where he confesses again. They messed you up so bad. It's okay, honey. I did it. I did it, dear. I cannot stop. I think you're listening to me right now, dear. No. I didn't.

[01:13:32] Just endless back and forth between them. Just, no, I did it. No, you didn't. One thing that I find striking is on a basic human level, it's difficult to hear someone crying. And that's especially true if I hear Anya crying. I'm going to be really, really upset and devastated and want to help her.

[01:13:58] And here Richard Allen is talking to this woman that we are told he loves, and she is weeping uncontrollably, and he doesn't seem to care. He has a totally flat affect. And not only that, but when you listen to that call, there are moments where he seems to be turning the emotional screws to make her cry and be even more upset. He's saying, well, you know, I'm never going to get out.

[01:14:27] It's like he's relishing her strong emotional reactions. One thing that correctional officers and, you know, many witnesses testified to at trials is this guy is desperate for attention. He wants everyone's attention, right? Yeah. He needs to be the special boy center of attention, you know. Look at Richard. Look at little Ricky.

[01:14:49] Ricky, and I feel like this is a bid for, like, now I really have your attention, and I'm going to lay out everything for you. I think there's an element of, yeah, I hear what you mean, where it's like he's really making it worse for her, but I also hear, it's almost like he's trying to give her all, everything, so she can kind of, like, hear him out, hear the details, and then maybe come back to him and say, I love you anyway. That's what he needs.

[01:15:19] He says that there's somebody in there listening. Do we assume this is Dr. Wallach? Yes. I remember during the trial, it was discussed that he wanted her to listen to one of these calls. He brought in Dr. Wallach to listen and to help him call his wife that day, and what's interesting is that, what was it? It's like, she didn't want him to confess. She kept telling him, don't talk to me about this. Talk to your attorneys. You know, he doesn't want to talk to his attorneys.

[01:15:47] It sounds like he didn't even trust his attorneys up until recently in this situation. He trusted Dr. Wallach. He didn't trust his attorneys, apparently. So, you know, like, yeah, that's the person I believe he's referencing, because that was the day where I think he called her, and then he got Dr. Wallach. I want to call her back. I want you to hear what I have to say. And she's like, are you sure? And he's like, yes. Yeah, Dr. Wallach, she's looking after the interests of her patients. She's not interested in getting confessions from them. That's not her role.

[01:16:16] She doesn't want to be a witness at a trial. No one wants that. No one wanted. The warden, John Gallup, wouldn't even come meet this guy after he wrote him saying, I want to confess to you, essentially. No one wanted this. No one wanted to get dragged into this. This is Richard Allen, you know, having his hissy fits, as usual, trying to get everyone, you know, involved, trying to, oh, everyone comfort me. You know, I'm such a bad boy, but do you still love me? Just pathetic.

[01:16:40] And they also know that if they were going out soliciting confessions from him, the defense attorneys rightfully so would object. So that they are bending over backwards to respect Richard Allen's rights. No one wants to hear this guy. He just will not stop. He is determined. He's bound and determined to get a guarantee. And also, none of these calls contain significant details of what he did. It's not like he's saying, I killed them with a box cutter. That's all in his talk with Walla.

[01:17:09] So that's not going to be outlined here. But to me, what these are significant is I don't believe they're the act of someone going through psychosis. I believe he's a very troubled man. Don't get me wrong. But I don't think, I think he's trying to be honest. Trying to basically put out the worst thing he ever did and get assurances from his support system that they'll still love him. And they won't. They won't give him that. They won't give him that.

[01:17:34] They won't even let, I mean, and the thing is like if you, I mean, I wouldn't, I probably, in fairness to the Allens, I probably would not want to have those conversations on, on any sort of record. Because I would be worried about that. But, well, honestly, if you killed two kids, I guess I wouldn't care. But the thing is. You wouldn't care if you were having the conversation on the record. Yeah, if you killed two kids and you confess to me, like that, that's your problem at that point. Like that, then, then my spouse isn't who I thought they were when I married them, right?

[01:18:05] But, but beyond that, let's just take that away. One thing that a confession or asking for more detail, asking for more clarity can do is if he says, well, I flew in in a hot air balloon and then the aliens were there and I shot them with a gun. Well, then I, well, you're probably innocent. You probably are having a mental health episode because everything you said doesn't match up. But it's interesting to me that they don't even, they're not even curious enough to get that. They don't want, they don't know. Don't tell me with that. They don't want to know.

[01:18:35] I don't hear any curiosity. I hear defensiveness. And that makes me wonder because where's that coming from? All right. This is, uh, this is Janice. This is Alan's mom. This is, uh, May 17th. So a week later. It's good to hear your voice. Did Kathy tell you that I did it?

[01:19:06] We're not going to discuss this. Okay. Are you there? Yeah, I'm still here. Yeah. We love you. You know that, don't you? Regardless? Yes.

[01:19:39] That was a very uncertain yes. Yeah. Kathy's doing okay. We've been holding each other up. Also pointing out, he's asking how Kathy's doing. I don't know. Maybe there, it seems like that could indicate a lapse between phone calls. So now not only is she shutting him down in the phone calls, there may not be a lot of phone calls going on.

[01:20:09] There's a, there's a withdrawal. Yeah. And that's the sense I get. Love me because of the fact that I said that I did it. Ricky, I just know you're not in a good place right now. And I'm praying for you. And we will always love you. No matter what.

[01:20:44] But just saying it doesn't mean you did it. Does when I did. Rick, don't talk like this. I think they're just messing with you. No, Mom, they're not.

[01:21:11] Love you, though. What are you doing? I love you, too, hon. I just know you don't have it in you to do something like that.

[01:21:32] I'd better tell you I did it if I didn't. Kind of an echo to something he said in one of the police interviews, which was, I'm not going to sit here and tell you something I didn't do. Right.

[01:22:01] Now, she does give him that unconditional love assurances, but I think that means a lot less to somebody when they're denying what you're saying. You know, if they don't accept what, you know, what you're claiming to have done, then assurances of unconditional love seem to fall a bit flat and be more conditional in nature. He's, um, he sounds a lot flatter here. He sounds exasperated with her a few times when he's basically like, Mom, why would I say this if I didn't do it? Like, come on.

[01:22:32] I don't think his mother was as important a figure to him as Kathy. I think, like, with Kathy, he seems a lot more desperate. Yeah, I would agree. The mom, not so much. Not so much. A bit calmer. Still trying to get across his message. Still trying to say what he did, but not to the same degree. All right. This is, um, this is, uh, Kathy. This is from, I believe, June 5th, 2022?

[01:23:02] Know that I done it right. Yeah. I don't want to talk about that. Can I just, he says, you know I done it right? And she says, yeah. And then pause. I don't want to talk about it. I'm sure that was just an awkward moment in the conversation. I don't think we need to read into that, but I am pointing it out that, yikes. I have a good conversation between us.

[01:23:32] So a good conversation between Kathy and Rick at this point seems to be, or let's say Kathy and Richard. I don't, I'm not, I'm not calling this guy a nickname. It seems to be one where he's not actively confessing to, like, murdering two children. That's a good conversation.

[01:23:50] It just doesn't matter what I think, but. Of course it does. Just in a really frustrating spot right now. What?

[01:24:22] I said I'm just in a really frustrating spot right now. And I know that that's nothing compared to where you're at. So I'm not trying to. No. No. Your, your side is a lot worse than mine. I have freedoms that you don't have. So I'm not going to go there.

[01:24:45] I don't know why nobody will talk to me and be honest with me. We're not going to get that there. They've already got the mind set. I don't care. You did, didn't do it. That's just prison.

[01:25:20] Just another number. That. I just don't feel like anybody's willing to be honest with me anymore. Like everybody's afraid to hurt my feelings or something. I think people have to be very careful when they talk.

[01:25:43] And we all do. If I can get a chaplain in there to pray with you, would that be okay? I mean, I've been trying to get a hold of somebody. But, of course, nobody ever answers. You have to go to voicemail. And it's full. So, but if I could get that.

[01:26:12] I had a chaplain pray with you once, but it just doesn't. Okay. Doesn't seem to help me anymore. Well. So, we're seeing kind of the wind down of his religious episode. You know. And whether or not, I mean, I'm not going to, I don't know what's in this guy's head or heart.

[01:26:34] I don't know if that was a sincere attempt to atone for as much as one can atone for doing something like this. Or if that was just a ploy to manipulate his family into, I don't know, accepting that he changed. I don't know. But we see kind of a wind down here. So, the chaplain's not doing much for him anymore.

[01:26:57] I'm always, the phrase that always resonates with me is he was trying to get his family to, he was excited about his professed conversion to Christianity. And he thought, well, maybe I won't get to see my family in earth again, but I can see them in the afterlife in heaven if I get right with God. But then his family starts pulling back when he tries to do that. Because then his mind getting right with God involves confessing.

[01:27:27] And so he starts, he realizes he has come to a crossroads. And there was a phrase I believe heard in perhaps the three-day hearing from Harshman where he, at some point, Alan, realized he had to choose between heaven and his family. And he said that was no contest and ended up choosing his family. Yeah, that's Master Trooper Brian Harshman who, of course, monitored all these calls for the state.

[01:27:56] Yeah, I think it's interesting. They seem to be completely talking past each other. He's referencing no one's willing to be honest with me. She seems to think he's talking about prison officials, people in prison. Well, that's just prison. You're just a number. I think he's talking about her. I think he's talking about his family because they won't listen to him. And it's basically like we need to walk on eggshells. We can't talk about anything real. Let's have a nice conversation. Let's keep it nice.

[01:28:25] You know, it's all about this niceness. So, here's another portion of that conversation. This is actually, I thought it was interesting. I never picked this up on the first time. So, I never, but I'll just play it. Got to pray the bad thoughts away, hon. And try. The demons are fighting hard to get you. Yeah. I know. I feel like they've already gotten me. I'm already in hell. Yeah.

[01:28:56] Well, you're kind of in physical hell right now. But. Did you hear that? The demons are fighting hard to get you. Huh. And he says, I think they've already got me. I think he's right. Yeah. I think they've had him for a long time. She seems to think that that means, like, whatever kind of mental issues are prompting him to confess. But. Interesting.

[01:29:23] I think this guy's had a murderous impulse for a long time that he's just not satisfied until 2017. When he went out there to rape and kill somebody. Now. The conversation's clearly not really. Okay. Well, actually, this is the new one. This is the last one. Last call that was released. June 11th, 2022. It's Kathy again. Here, we're going to think I see something in the level of kind of control. Or Alan's attempts to control people. Others.

[01:29:54] That I thought was interesting. Okay. What? I did it. Do you still love me?

[01:30:28] Yes, dear. But you didn't do it. Why do you say that? Why do you say it?

[01:30:59] I don't want to upset you. I'm already upset. I don't know what I'm doing.

[01:31:32] I feel like I've lost my mind. Honey, you can't call me and talk like this, okay?

[01:32:29] I didn't want to do this. Hey, I'm sorry.

[01:33:03] You're not going to do anything to yourself, are you? No. Probably going to have to kill myself now. Stop. He said at the end, they're probably going to have to kill myself now. That, to me, is just an overt manipulation effort there. Oh, yeah.

[01:33:33] Clearly. You know. You didn't react in the way I wanted you to, so I'm going to kill myself. Oh, no. Don't kill yourself. Oh, no, no. You're so good. I love you. Yeah. It's just like, I never want to use the phrase master manipulator to describe Richard Allen because he's not. He's really clumsy and overt and just very close to the surface about it. But he is a manipulative person.

[01:34:02] That is apparent from the testimony we heard about his behavior to from just the way he behaved in court, frankly. Unfortunately, everything I've learned about this person since trial underscores to me that this is a man who is used to just manipulating those around him. And in this case, controlling family members with threats of violence. He's not threatening Kathy, of course. He's threatening to harm himself. But he's using violence and threats of violence as a way to get what he wants, which is for her to love him.

[01:34:32] Yeah. But she won't do that. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know, Kathy Allen. I don't know whether she cannot love somebody who did that to two girls or if it's just hard for her to accept that her husband of so many years turned out to be whatever this is. You know, I get that. That's difficult. But he's just continuing to manipulate her. And I think from the outside, something like that's really obvious.

[01:35:00] I think maybe when you're in that situation, it's a lot harder to see, you know, to recognize that that's what's happening. But that is what is happening there. Make no mistake. I think at one point, did you hear her say, you're killing me or something like that? Something like that. Something like that. So, you know, the level of harm he's inflicted on her is pretty extreme. But, you know, he at this point kind of drops off on his confessions. He's already damaged himself extensively.

[01:35:29] He's already given detailed confession to Dr. Monica Walla in which he notes that he saw a white van that there's no way anyone but the killer could have seen that day. So, I mean, his confession-o-rama, you know, has definitely, it's ending at this point. But the damage is already done to his case, although I will note that when we talked to

[01:35:55] a juror, obviously in our interview, the thing that stuck out for them was the timeline. So, I mean, it wasn't even the confessions that sealed the deal for most of the jurors, for all the jurors, for, you know, it was kind of the basic evidence of him putting himself there. And listening to him, you just wonder if they had listened to him and really engaged with what he was trying to tell them.

[01:36:24] You wonder if there would have been a trial, if the families and all of us would have had to go through that. And you wonder if maybe he would have tried to actually apologize to the family instead. Oh, yeah. I think it would have been totally different. And you wonder if now, if they were engaging with him, would they be, would this appeal be happening? Yeah. I mean, I don't, I mean, who knows? I don't know.

[01:36:53] I guess we'll never know, obviously, but I think there would have been a less likely possibility of going to trial. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think it's important for everyone to, Richard Allen owns his actions. That's his fault. That's not his relative's fault. What he did is his fault. What he, he, his behavior is his behavior. So I think we just need to remember that.

[01:37:19] And I don't think there's any indication in these calls, at least, that anyone had any active knowledge about what he did that day. I think there's reasonable questions to be had about maybe questions that should have been asked, maybe even earlier than all this came crashing down. Yeah. It didn't come out that Richard Allen told Kathy not to participate in the search parties when they were looking for the girls on the night they went missing. Yeah.

[01:37:47] But, you know, there's no accounting for being in denial. Yeah. Which is a strong force and maintaining the stasis and status quo of your relationship is something a lot of people do in situations that are far less serious than a murder investigation, obviously. But people stay in unhappy marriages. People stay in troubled marriages. You know, it's not necessarily out there. But a lot of people are just like personalities where they're not going to rock the boat.

[01:38:12] And if that means kind of looking away and looking, averting their eyes when it comes to maybe things that they should have asked about or things they should have gotten clarity on, I think that's not something that's terribly uncommon. And I just, in a way, I feel a lot of pity for Kathy Allen because I think what has happened is, you know, with the defense team that they got involved with, she's probably hearing a lot about what she wants to hear right now.

[01:38:42] She's surrounded by sycophants who are going to continue to basically perpetuate this fiction that her husband did nothing wrong. And that is, in a way, worse than just accepting reality because she doesn't get to move on as long as she's in that situation. And it's tragic because she's not a killer. She didn't, I don't believe she knew anything about this. She deserves to get, she deserves to move on with her life. Yes.

[01:39:10] She deserves to not be hitching her wagon to the falling, exploding supernova star of Richard Allen, which will just continue to drag her down. For as long as she kind of orbits that. So in a way, she continues to be his victim, in my view. Yeah. But anyways, any other thoughts about Allen or things that surprised you? I mean, on these re-listens, obviously we heard them in trial, but very interesting to get to re-listen, pause. Oh, wait, what was said there?

[01:39:39] Yeah, we didn't have that luxury during trial. Yeah, we're going to be like, hey, Judge Gull, can you pause it for a second? Can we hear that again? That would have gone over really well, I'm sure. I think this is a situation where it's enlightening to kind of get to really parse some of it. So appreciate again, Tom Webster. We only covered a fraction. Yeah, go check out Tom Webster's channel. I think it underscores the fact that if Judge Gull had done things differently, if she had done

[01:40:08] things the way I think almost any other judge in the country would have done, and made some choices to allow this evidence and this trial to be held more openly, I don't think we'd have all of these conspiracy theories out there. Yeah, sure, there are people out there who are married to the idea of Richard Allen being a great guy, and who hero worships Richard Allen. Oh my God.

[01:40:35] And there's nothing you can do about those people. We're always going to have nuts with us. We're always going to have cranks with us. But I think the vast majority of reasonable-minded people who had reasonable questions about the evidence and the process, I think their concerns would have been mitigated and completely done away with if Judge Gull had allowed this process to be more open. There could have been a camera in the courtroom.

[01:41:04] There could have been an audio feed in the courtroom. There could have been like a delayed broadcast. There's lots of things she could have done so that more accurate information could have reached the public sooner. I think it's an outrageous situation that the public who is interested in this case is only just now getting the opportunity to see this information some six months after the trial.

[01:41:29] It's an outrageous situation, and I think the lingering conspiracy theories, that's Judge Gull. That's her legacy. That's what she did to this case. Yeah, public access issues were pretty bad. But I mean, legally, we thought she did pretty good. So I mean, it's one of those weird dichotomies. But I think this is a situation where, I don't know, like it's weird to hear it again.

[01:41:54] Like I feel like I'm having flashbacks to trial sometimes whenever any of this stuff comes up where you're just like, oh my gosh. I remember when I first heard his voice, it was just like, oh my goodness. Like that's, that's Bridge Guy. It's Bridge Guy. Richard Allen killed those girls. We listened to that voice so many times over the years. We were just listening to it. And everybody else that I heard speak in any capacity, it was pretty, like, no, that's not, it's not it.

[01:42:23] For example, Kagan Klein. Never thought his voice matched at all. Descriptions of Tony Klein. His voice, as it was described, kind of high, kind of womanly. Not, not what, not what I hear in that Bridge Guy audio. Richard Allen, it's Richard Allen. It's, it's just, that is his voice. He, he is Bridge Guy. He is the killer. There's, I mean, it feels kind of silly to say that now that there's been a jury verdict that, you know, confirms that. But you, you still see a lot of doubt.

[01:42:53] You see a lot of lingering doubts. And I mean, hopefully what Tom has done here is help clear some of that up by, by sunlight, by letting in the sunlight, letting people see the evidence. So, you know, I, I appreciate Tom getting some of these exhibits out. I'm sure other exhibits will come out too. And again, I just wish Judge Goal had allowed the public more access to these things all throughout the process because a lot of the lingering questions and a lot of the craziness would not be here. Well, I'm going to tell you, some of it would always be here because these are, we're talking

[01:43:22] about like two people with like 20 different alts between them. And, and, you know, I mean, it's, it just reminds me of, you know, like the legend at the end of World War II, like years later, there'd be like, you know, I don't know if this is, this sounds like one of those things that's probably a historical, but it matches here. But like the Japanese soldiers on the island where it's like 20 years later, they still think the war is on. That's what, that's the mentality of some of these people that would still be going on. But I think, I think you're right.

[01:43:50] I think the people who are more of like, well, I just, I don't really get it. I don't really get the case. I think they would have a better understanding for sure. But the, the, the level of the like cranks, I mean, they're in it for life. This is just their personality. They want to worship a child murderer. That's, that's weird. I mean, that's just a weird thing to do in my opinion. I think that's pretty messed up and people doing that have some pretty extreme issues. But, but for the people who are more like, I don't really get the case against him. I'm not really sure.

[01:44:19] I'm not convinced by what I heard in the media. Yeah. Yes. They're, they're people who are reasonable and their questions are quite reasonable in my opinion. But yeah. And obviously we have a book about it coming out with our, which I hope will answer any lingering questions people have. Yeah. I think, I think it will. I think there's going to be some pretty surprising details in this, but anyway, thank you all for listening. Thanks for dealing. Sorry. Some of the audio is not the best. It's just, you know, we're dealing with recording systems and whatnot. So hopefully everyone can hear stuff.

[01:44:48] But again, please go check out Tom's web, Tom's channel. We'll link to it. Check out the individual videos. Check out his commentary. You're going to hear so much more than what we put out here. This is just a really small sampling of what was in there. But thank you again for listening. Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

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