The Cheat Sheet: Perpetrators and Puzzles

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Content warning, this episode contains discussion of serious topics like mental health, as well as violence and murder, and sexual assault.

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So today on The Murder Sheet, we're returning to our cheat sheet format. For those of you who might be new listeners, this is where at the end of each week, we kind of run down a number of different true crime stories that we found interesting.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: We talk about some of the facts, some of the legal implications. At the end, we do an awkward advertisement for our t-shirts.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And you feel that's an integral part of the format.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It is. It's baked in at this point. Can't deny it. But that's where we are.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And we've mentioned on the show, we're interested in your suggestions for any changes we should make in the show going forward.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: A number of people love the ad so much, at least when one of us does them, that they feel that the entire show from now on should be ads with maybe 30 seconds at the end for content.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Why are you starting off this segment by threatening our audience? Don't understand.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm just saying this week is Anya's turn for the ad, and I'm sure she can live up to those high standards.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. So you're basically trying to set me up to fail, let everyone know, hey, don't worry, check out next week. That's when I'm doing it. Is that what you're basically trying to do?

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Well, there you go. Well, no, I'm not going to hit the music yet. I'm going to give a description on what we're actually going to be talking about.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So today our cases come from all over the place, actually. First one's going to be in our backyard, Indianapolis, Indiana.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And thanks very much to the tipster who brought that to our attention.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_00]: The second one's kind of in your old backyard.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_00]: My old backyard, my family roots, the Bronx, New York. And then we're going to do one where the person at the center of it is from Maui, one of the Hawaiian islands.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But she is unfortunately missing in Los Angeles, California. And then the last one is in Pensacola, Florida.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Cheat Sheet. Perpetrators and Puzzles.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So as I mentioned, this first case comes out of Indianapolis.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to just have the caveat, this is a very disturbing one.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to talk about sexual assault in depth.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just horrifying.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So keep that in mind if you want to skip ahead.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Skipping ahead a few minutes, that's okay.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But this, the information I got for this one, it pretty much exclusively came from the documents on my case.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: This was investigated by the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's an ongoing murder case.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And the lead detective seems to be Larry Krasenoy.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's also the affiant with the probable cause affidavit.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So he's the detective saying, here are all the facts.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's why we believe probable cause was reached in this case and why this man should be arrested.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And spoiler alert, this man was arrested and is now facing murder charges.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We missed a lot of this because we were covering the Delphi murders.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But we'll go back.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess maybe what I'm going to do is read portions of the PCA, Kevin, and then we can kind of pause and assess them.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's start out.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Quote, affidavit for probable cause, state of Indiana, county of Marion.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Detective Larry Krasenoy swears or affirms that on Monday, September 9th, 2024, officers with IMPD Southeast District were called to 1800 Wagner for a body found at a dead end.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Officers arrived and located the female.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_00]: She was pronounced deceased at 1 10 p.m.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_00]: The female was naked with a sweatshirt pulled up over her head and arms lying on her stomach.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Homicide was requested to the scene.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Detective Larry Krasenoy, along with other homicide detectives, responded to the scene.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Crime lab was requested to process the scene for evidence.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Detective Krasenoy spoke to R.D., who stated the female that was found was her daughter, Shanty Dixon.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_00]: R.D. stated that her daughter had been missing since early Sunday morning, September 8th, 2024.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_00]: R.D. said that her daughter got off work at around 3.30 a.m. Sunday morning at the Sunset Strip and took an Uber to get home.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_00]: No one had talked to her since.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_00]: R.D. had reported her daughter missing around 9.53 a.m. on 9-9-24.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_00]: R.D. went on to say that they found her daughter when a family member found her Apple Watch in her apartment and used the Find My iPhone function.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_00]: The application showed that her daughter's cell phone was north of the apartment in a wooded area.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Once the family walked down towards the area, they located the victim.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_00]: End quote.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: R.D. now one thing I think officers would do pretty quickly in a situation like this would be in this day and age, there are security cameras everywhere.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine they would look to see if there were any security cameras that caught any relevant footage that would explain what happened to this woman.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: That's exactly right.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's exactly what Officer Tony Borrello started to do.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_00]: They found a video with the apartment complex, but it didn't really show anything.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00]: In addition to that, I just want to say for R.D. and for Chantal's family, I mean, just what a horrible, horrible situation that they're looking for this young woman and they have to be the ones to find her like that.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I just my heart goes out to them.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_00]: That's incredibly horrifying and traumatic.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I also want to note that, you know, the Sunset Strip is a strip club in Indianapolis.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a couple of different strip clubs around town and that I looked it up.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: That is one of them.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, she seems to have been working as like an exotic dancer or something like that and was, you know, infuriating that a woman can just be going out working and then should be able to come home safely.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately, that's not what happened.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But from there, they called a crime scene specialist, Blake Watson processed.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: They found the following kind of pieces of evidence.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll sort of summarize.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Blue Lake Tex gloves, an orange baby sandal, like kind of indication that the victim was dragged along a path, a black backpack, another orange sandal, a one piece women's romper in green.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And the straps of the garment had been ripped off her.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: They did not immediately find a wallet or a cell phone, though.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So then they called in canine officer Chris Wench.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry if I'm saying that name wrong.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And so the canine and the partners kind of examined the scene and ended up finding two cell phones that had been sort of flung into the woods as well as a tan sort of what was described as a wristlet wallet.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And RD gave them the codes to open the phone.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So they were able to get into that.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: What did they learn?

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, first, there was actually more processing to do.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So once I guess the kind of the way this goes is you do the preliminary field exam.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Then you bring in someone from the coroner's office.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So they called Calista Herniter.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry if I'm saying that wrong.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of names in this one.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I'm like, I'm kind of winging here.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But but what what this coroner found was that initially they believed and I don't think this has changed that there seemed to be a single gunshot on the left side of the victim's temple.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: She was nude again, except for the black sweatshirt over her head and arms.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that was sort of what they found.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So next.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: What did they learn from the phone?

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the phones, they they went back to Krasanoi, went back to the homicide office.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And then she logged in and saw that as as her mother had described, Miss Dixon had indeed ordered an Uber at 334 a.m. from 2320 West 16th Street on September 8th.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And then took that to an address on East Washington Street at 357 a.m.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and then left in the same Uber and went to an address on Earhart Street, which is where she lived.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So this all kind of confirms.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And I guess like if you saw that, would you be immediately suspicious of the Uber driver?

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Because to me, I wouldn't necessarily.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I would just be like, OK, this confirms what R.D. said.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'd certainly want to talk to him.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: You'd want to talk to him.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, would you immediately be like super suspicious?

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I would be a little suspicious is too strong of a word.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: That's how I feel.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd certainly be curious.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you don't want to overestimate people's thinking capabilities.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But you would assume that if you were going to commit a murder of someone who wasn't known to you, a stranger murder, you would not do it when you were their Uber driver.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And that information that you had them in your vehicle was accessible.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: That was my initial thought as well.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But we're going to we're going to find out some things, I guess.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_00]: They they looked more at the Uber order and the ride came up as completed at 4 or 5 a.m.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And the driver was a man named Francisco Valadez.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And the Uber information had him driving a BMW that was registered to an Angela Valadez at an address on Aristocrat Circle in Indianapolis.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Crassanoi asked some officers, hey, drive by the address.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: They they contact him quickly after and saying, yeah, we see the BMW.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So he goes there and asks to talk to Valadez about this ride.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And Valadez readily agrees.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So here's here's the next part of the PCA.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Quote, Detective Crassanoi and Mr. Valadez sat in Detective Crassanoi's department vehicle and began to take a recorded statement from him.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Before having Mr. Valadez get in his department vehicle, Detective Crassanoi asked Mr. Valadez if he had a gun or knife on him and briefly patted him down.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Mr. Valadez said he had a gun, but it was inside the house.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Mr. Valadez said he did pick up Shanti and began to tell a story about how when he dropped her off, there seemed to be no issues.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_00]: He said that he had dropped her off at the intersection of Prospect and Earhart.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Mr. Valadez then made a comment that he had called the non-emergency number.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And when asked why he did that, he said it was because when he dropped her off and was driving away, he heard a gunshot.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_00]: This call was made around 530 a.m. after Mr. Valadez got back home.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: End quote.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_00]: What are your initial reactions to this?

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, several things come in mind.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: First of all, there is people are always told that you shouldn't talk to police without an attorney present.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And certainly if this man had had an attorney, this information would not come out.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: He wouldn't have been sitting and talking to these people and giving what's clearly suspicious and incriminating information.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And secondly, it occurs to me that in a lot of cases we have covered or read about, we see instances where the person who is involved in the crime tries to deflect suspicion by saying,

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: oh yeah, sure, I was there, but it wasn't me.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I saw something suspicious and I tried to call that in so therefore you shouldn't suspect me.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_01]: To a degree, we saw this in the Richard Allen case.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_00]: How so?

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen contacted authorities and said he was on the trails at the time Abby and Libby were killed.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a very, I mean, I don't know if it's common, but it's certainly not unheard of that a possible perpetrator will try to control the situation.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I mean, I think we, we, we, most of us can probably think of a time where, you know, maybe you wanted to explain yourself or get ahead of something and say, okay, I know you're going to see this.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So here, you know, and, and like it can be a lie or it can be telling the truth, but there's a, there's a, there's a need to control the situation.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So it ends up better for you.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that fair to say?

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And so he comes up with a story where he apparently called the police non-emergency number around 530 to say he heard a shot like an hour and a half earlier.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: That's odd because if, if I heard a shot and thought that a crime had been committed and that a person who had just been in my vehicle may be endangered, I would not wait until I leisurely drive home to call the authorities.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's, here's what I'm going to say.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes when there's weird behavior in a case, you might just be dealing with someone who's kind of weird or, or just, it is sort of not super thoughtful or, or whatever.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So I never want to read too much into it.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But that being said, I'm at the point in like covering true crime cases where I'm willing to just say, that's really weird.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't make any sense.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Someone without anything to hide.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're concerned enough to call something in, why do it in such a lackadaisical, strange way?

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It's odd.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go back.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: This story is going to change so many times, Kevin, that we're going to just kind of go through a saga here.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to read the next part.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Please do.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Quote, Mr. Valadez then added to the story saying that actually a black male came up to his car when he was dropping her off and tried to rob her and shot her in the thigh.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_00]: He said that she then threw herself out of the car and he drove off.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Detective Krasenoy asked if there was still blood in the car and he stated that he had already cleaned it up.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: End quote.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: First of all.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, sir.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I bring this up because the Susan Smith parole hearing just went down where this is a woman kind of who became infamous for murdering her small children by locking them in a car and then drowning them back in 1994.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a little three-year-old boy named Michael and a one-year-old named Alexander.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So horrible, horrible crime out of South Carolina.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And she infamously said that a black man had carjacked her and stolen her sons.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is yet another instance of unnamed black men being, you know, you know, ID'd as the possible suspect by somebody who may have something to hide, which is always troubling and disturbing to see in my mind.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted to note that.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And for you, what do you make of this new iteration of the story?

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So we went from I didn't see anything to I heard a gunshot to this happened.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, really?

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I heard a gunshot.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So about an hour later, I decided to call the police.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Now he actually witnesses a shooting, drives off, and then again waits about an hour, hour and a half before he calls anyone for help.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's hard for me to believe because I imagine, ask yourself what you would do in that situation or what you would expect a rational person to do in that situation.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they would contact authorities immediately.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm also not, he says that he cleaned the blood up.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is just a day or two after the crime, right?

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: If something like that happened to me, I would not say, okay, now I'm going to clean the car.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd call the police, let them examine it, get what they need.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_00]: In what world would, I guess, like, would an Uber driver who's, I mean, in this case, if someone's, you know, grabbing someone out of your Uber, shooting someone in your Uber, maybe even if you're not a direct victim, you are, I mean, you're part of this.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Why wouldn't you just call that in?

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it doesn't make any sense at all.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's one of those things where, yeah, this immediately becomes, and also just, again, the kind of the cliche of blaming a black man for this.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just, it's distasteful and frankly racist.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But it also doesn't make any sense because, you know, I've used Ubers.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I've used Lyfts.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Most of the drivers I've had have been very nice, responsible people.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't see any instance where I could imagine myself being shot in their car, falling out, and then them just driving off and being like, well, back to work.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Back to my next call.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, no.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And then cleaning it out.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's going into shock and then there's whatever that is.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's obviously not adding up.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's go to the.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine at this point that the detective doing the interview was thinking, OK, this interview is going to be a lot more important than I thought.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, like in the beginning, like his first story made some sense of like, I dropped her off.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you could imagine maybe he did it or maybe this is a scenario where someone grabbed her or something happened later on.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, but now, I mean, he's he's given them enough.

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So what happened next?

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Quote, Detective Krasenoy stopped the interview and transported Mr. Valadez to the homicide office for a full interview.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: After Detective Krasenoy left with Mr. Valadez, his mother approached the uniformed officers outside and said that she was aware of the person that had been shot in her son's car and that some of what he cleaned out of the car was still in the house.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Detective Krasenoy obtained a warrant for the house on aristocrat and Detective Ronald Clayton worked with Crime Lab in processing the items found at the house.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Detective Krasenoy took Mr. Valadez to the homicide office for an interview where Detective Krasenoy and Lieutenant Eli McAllister attempted to interview him.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Prior to starting the interview, Detective Krasenoy read a written waiver of rights to Mr. Valadez, to which Mr. Valadez signed and agreed to speak with detectives.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: End quote.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So what are the I want to talk about the waiver here?

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the main thing is that a person in that situation, when he's clearly suspected of being involved in a crime, that person has the right to have an attorney present when he's speaking with police.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And any attorney who would be present would say, don't speak with police.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So he, when you waive your rights, you're basically going into battle on an unfamiliar field alone instead of having someone there to help you.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Why do people do that?

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I think some people do it because they're actually innocent and they don't want to impede the investigation.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: If something happened to someone you knew and loved and cared about, you would not want to impede the investigation.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to give them what they need to know.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Other people who are actually guilty and who are involved in a crime, maybe they think they can outwit the police.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they think, well, if I ask for a lawyer, I'm going to look guilty.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And I can just handle it myself and talk my way out of it.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows?

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a smart decision.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: No, it really isn't.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's one thing if you're just like a minor witness and police are canvassing and, oh, yeah, I heard a scream that night.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't think you need a lawyer for that.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But when people are calling you into the homicide office because, you know, your story's getting more and more outlandish, that's probably a pretty bad sign for you.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll read the next part.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Please do.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Please do.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Please do.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Please do.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Please do.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Please do.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: drove to the dead end of Wagner Lane, and once there, he drug her out of his car and placed her

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_00]: where she was later found, and he threw her stuff into the wooded area. When asked about cleaning the

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: car afterwards, Mr. Valadez claimed that after he called the non-emergency line and no officers

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: ended up coming to his house, he decided to clean the blood out of his car. He said that everything

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_00]: he cleaned out was placed in the trash at his house and that the trash man had already picked

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: up the trash. Detective Krasenoy had been informed by Detective Clayton that while executing the

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_00]: search warrant at the house on Aristocrat, that they had found bloody towels and clothes in a

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00]: bedroom belonging to Mr. Valadez. Detective Krasenoy informed Mr. Valadez that detectives

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_00]: had recovered the items from his room, and he said that those items were from the second cleanup

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00]: he did of his car. He claimed that the items from the first cleanup were picked up by the trash man.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: End quote. Okay, so now it went from she was injured and threw herself out to he's the one

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_01]: disposing the body. So he's, instead of talking himself out of trouble, he is getting himself

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: deeper and deeper and deeper into trouble. Let's jump into the next part, and then I'm going to

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00]: probably summarize maybe the last part because it's kind of graphic. Okay. Quote, Detective Krasenoy

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_00]: informed Mr. Valadez that detectives had also recovered a firearm from his house, which he

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: confirmed was a Walter PPX 9mm. Lieutenant McAllister asked Mr. Valadez if there was any

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: explainable way that once the bullet was recovered from Ms. Dixon during the autopsy, if it would match

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: his firearm. Mr. Valadez hesitated for a second and then said, okay, I shot her in the head. It was

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_00]: self-defense. Mr. Valadez then told a story about how he was driving Ms. Dixon, and she was obviously

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: angry about something, and at some point started slapping him in the head repeatedly. He said that he

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: grabbed his gun. It was in the driver's door and fired over his shoulder, striking her in the head.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_00]: He said he panicked, and that is when he took her to the dead end and dumped her body. He made it a

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: point to say that she had her clothes on, and whatever happened after he dumped her, he knew

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: nothing about. End quote. So now we're into self-defense territory because a woman randomly decides to attack

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: this Uber driver, and he responds by shooting her in the head. So a woman who is apparently

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: unarmed and in the backseat of a vehicle decides to start hitting somebody on the head,

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and his response is to kill her. You know, listen, I think rideshare drivers have a tough job. I'm sure

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone's had a nightmare passenger lash out. I don't think that's at all what happened here.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I think he's lying, but let's just take it seriously for a second. You know, wouldn't the

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: thing to do would be like to pull over, exit the car with your keys and call the police?

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You're being assaulted. Not like randomly start shooting in your own car. Doesn't make any sense.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. Then I'll kind of summarize this last portion of the PCA because it is graphic and disturbing.

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: This is where Valadez told yet another version of his story. And what he said was that he was 29,

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_00]: according to court documents, but he talked about being a 30-year-old virgin who asked Miss Dixon to

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: take his virginity, and he offered her money to do so after she laughed at him. He said they parked at

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_00]: the dead end, and he went to have sex with her in the back seat, and that she took her clothing off,

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and he said he could not get inside her, and had trouble performing sexually, and that she laughed at

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_00]: him and made fun of his small penis. And then he got angry and shot her in the head. And he also

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00]: claimed that she smacked him in the head. And he said he did ejaculate, and then he also shot her,

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, after shooting her, he threw her out of the car and drug her down to where she was found.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And then he also talked about sexually assaulting her corpse after she was dead, and then throwing her

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_00]: cell phones and wallet into the woods. And we also got some information in this PCA from the September

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: 10th autopsy, which was attended by Detective Steve Gray and forensic pathologist Dr. Chris Polos.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And they noted, again, the single gunshot wound, and they took swabs from her different parts of her body.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah. I guess, what do you think about a case like this where, you know, we talk a lot about

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: confessions because we covered the Delphi murders case, and that was like a kind of a different

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: situation. This is like changing stories that's kind of almost, it's like a spiral. We're getting

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: closer and closer seemingly to like- To the truth.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_00]: To what actually, I'm not going to say the truth because this man's innocent until proven guilty,

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: but I'm going to say to what matches the evidence at the scene.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you make of that?

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean?

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. Like, it's just, this guy, this, yeah, this, this guy's like a nightmare client for

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: an attorney, I think.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And at this point, when he's giving all these confessions again, he doesn't even have an

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: attorney. So he's not a nightmare client yet.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: He's not a nightmare client, but he's assumed, I mean, he, so now he's represented by Christopher

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_00]: M. Eskew and Benjamin Jaffe from Eskew Law. The prosecution was initially handled by Yassine

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Hariri from the Marion County Prosecutor's Office, and now it's been taken on by Nathan

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Leffler. Abigail Joe Ciccala is the second chair deputy for him. And then, you know,

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Ryan Mears is listed, but he's, he's the prosecutor from Marion County. So that's why.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And like, I mean more that like, you know, when you're like, I imagine a defense attorney

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_00]: looks at something like this and looks back and is like, if you had just shut up, we'd

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: probably be in a pretty bad position because of all the DNA in this case. But maybe it would

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_00]: have been a better situation had we not gotten these bizarre statements.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It would have been, it would have been a better situation. Certainly wouldn't have been a

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: worse one.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's true. So that is what's going on. Currently, the trial, which was originally

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_00]: scheduled for November 18th, 2024, is now going to be February 10th, 2025. And there has been

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: some public access where the judge, Cindy, I'm going to say this wrong. I'm sorry. Cindy

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Weechin is allowing Rich Nye of WTHR to, you know, possibly record audio and video of as

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: much of the trial as possible. She's kind of saying that, you know, media must pull resources

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_00]: for only one video camera, one cell photographer. They can't capture the jurors or witnesses or

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: juveniles. So there's some limitations, but she's allowing some of that in this case. And they

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_00]: also, there's a protective order regarding discovery. So I'll be curious to see what

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_00]: goes on in that case. Thanks again to the tipster who recommended we look at it. But I mean,

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: geez, what a mess.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, for our second case, why don't we go to your old neck of the woods in the Bronx?

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really my mom's old neck of the woods, in fairness. I don't feel like I can claim

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: that street cred.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And my source for this was the Westchester Journal News.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, hey, there you go. Well, I'm from Westchester. So yeah, and that's right next to the Bronx. So

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_00]: it's exciting.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So you're old stomping grounds.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_00]: In some ways, yes.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And this case is interesting to me, because one thing that courts always have to struggle with

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: is how do we define certain things? Like, I believe every one of us would agree that if a person

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: is in danger, they have the right to use self-defense to protect themselves, even up to the point of using

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_01]: lethal force. But then the question is, it's very easy to come up with situations where, yes,

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_01]: absolutely lethal force was a necessary occurrence here. So that's fine. And it's also easy to say,

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: no, lethal force was not necessary here. The person overreacted and needs to be punished.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe there's a case where, for instance, a person accidentally pulls into the wrong person's

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: driveway and the person who's at home shoots them and kills them. It's as though I was in self-defense.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And no, that was clearly an overreaction.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was the Kalen Gillis case, I believe, in upstate New York.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So what do we do with the many, many cases in the middle that aren't so clearly defined? Where do we draw

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_01]: the line of what should be considered self-defense and what shouldn't be? And keep in mind, this case

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: that we're going to talk about is one where even the judges of New York State had disagreements about

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_01]: whether or not this was a self-defense case. And it involves a man named Jairo Castillo, who was,

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: he said he was acting in self-defense. He had a confrontation back in 2016 with a man named Julio LeBron.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And at one point, Mr. LeBron actually held a razor blade against Castillo's face

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and threatened to cut him from ear to ear.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_01]: After that, though, he turns and he walks away.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And he is shot.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And many of the shots that hit him were fired when he was walking away because he was hit in the back.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So the question is, if you fire at a person who is walking away from you,

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: should that be considered self-defense? I think we could all agree if for some reason he was shot

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and given a fatal wound when he was in the process of pressing this razor blade against Castillo's neck

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_01]: or face, that's obviously self-defense. But is it still self-defense when he is no longer doing that

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and is walking away? What do you think?

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, I'm not a studied legal, you know, sage here.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, it does seem marginal. It seems like it's kind of something that could go either way.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, in the case of Gillis, where this young woman is in a car that they make a wrong turn,

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_00]: they go up somebody's driveway by accident.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're not hurting anybody. They're not going to hurt anybody.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's ridiculous that somebody was so paranoid that they, like, freaked out and shot at their car

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_00]: because, like, you know, you're so scared of other people and you're, you know,

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_00]: moving through life in such a terrified fashion that, you know, that's your initial reaction.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's ridiculous.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But in this case, a guy had just held a razor blade to his face and said he was going to slit his throat.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a different situation to me.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_00]: That's, like, an ongoing – that's, like, a – kind of, like, an assault or something.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it's technically assault, but, like, that is, like – that's a pretty grave situation, in my opinion.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of feel like in a case that's marginal in self-defense, you have to give it to the defendant in the interest of fairness.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess I would come down on this is self-defense because for what was in Castillo's mind,

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_00]: this guy who just did this thing to him could have easily turned back around and, you know, killed him or slashed him with the razor.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, again, I think it's marginal.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I certainly understand why the prosecutor's office would have charged him,

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_00]: but I can also understand why people would feel like this is more in the realm of self-defense.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's marginal, and I could see where people would disagree.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I just think, like, if it's something where you're, like, I don't know either way, it's kind of in the middle,

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_00]: then the thing to do is to say it's not – to say it's okay, I think.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think?

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't – this case bothers me because the guy was walking away,

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and the appellate court did say, well, he could still have posed a threat.

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess he could turn back around.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows?

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess – but the moment someone is walking away, it's difficult for me to understand how he's posing a threat to you.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it would be preferable to have a gun on the guy as he's walking away,

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and if he turns back around to come at you again, then shoot him.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But I can also imagine someone being so jarred by that experience that they're maybe not making the best decisions, frankly.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I would want – before I would make a decision, I'd want more information.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I would want to know the history between the two.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd want to know what was in the mind of the person who fired the shot, why he waited until he was walking away.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I want more context in order to make –

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_00]: This is like a drug deal gone wrong or a drug dispute, something like that?

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I think so.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_00]: As you mentioned, a lot of judges have disagreed about this one.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the trial court said, no, this is obviously not self-defense, and the Court of Appeals said, no, it is obviously self-defense.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a situation where even the experts who know the law better than any of us because they're actually experts in New York law, even they disagree.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And you don't want to get into a situation when you're basically like emboldening everybody.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Like this guy vaguely threatens you, blow his head off.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't want to – like you don't want to get in a situation where we're a nation of vigilantes, where you're basically telling people, act upon your most ludicrous fears and create all kinds of chaotic and horrible situations.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, you don't want to handcuff somebody from defending themselves in a potentially lethal situation by being like, well, if you shoot this guy and it's not in the exact perfect way, you're going to ruin your life even though you were defending yourself or others.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a tricky issue.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's one – there are so many manner of kind of wild situations that can come up.

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's anything that could ever be fully resolved.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It just has to be looked at, as you said, based on whatever the facts of the particular situation are.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's move on.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_01]: There is a sad and mysterious case involving a woman from Maui.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking about Hannah Kobayashi.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I read a lot about this case online.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the primary source I'm using for this particular discussion was a story I saw on abc7.com.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Hannah is a woman, again, from Maui.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Back on November 8th of this year, just a couple of weeks back, she took a flight from Maui to Los Angeles, and she was scheduled to then hop on another flight and go to New York.

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And as it happens, she was taking this flight with her ex-boyfriend.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess they weren't exes at the time.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_01]: They booked the flight.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_01]: He's cooperated with authorities.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_01]: She never got on her flight to New York.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_01]: The ex-boyfriend did.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: There have been a couple of sightings of Hannah in the area of Los Angeles.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_01]: She was seen at a bookstore.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_01]: She was seen at a Nike store.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_01]: No one has seen or heard from her since November 11th.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_01]: She sent some disturbing texts to family members in which she says,

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Deep hackers wiped my identity, stole all of my funds, and have had me on a mind F since Friday, for instance.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Another one says, I got tricked pretty much into giving away all of my funds for someone I thought I loved.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's mysterious.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It is disturbing, and it's ominous.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And her family wants to know where she is and if she's okay.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: This is really awful.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_00]: My heart goes out.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Having a situation where a loved one disappears in an area where they're not from so far away is horrifying.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_00]: This kind of in some ways reminds me of the 2006 disappearance of Jessie Foster.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00]: We talked to her mother, Glendine Grant, on the show.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And she was a young woman from Canada who vanished in Las Vegas, Nevada.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And she's never been found.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not, you know, it seemed like Jessie was a victim of sex trafficking in that situation.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_00]: But there can be all kinds of reasons for someone disappearing far away from home.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And either way, it just adds to the horror, in my opinion, because the family has to kind of wait.

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're not familiar with the local authorities and things like that.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just horrible.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_00]: That text, that's really upsetting.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder, it feels like a couple of horrible possibilities come to mind for me.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is all speculation, obviously.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, I wonder, could that be Hannah having some sort of mental health crisis?

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Or could that be somebody has her phone and it's not her who's actually texting?

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Either one is really concerning.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_00]: If anyone in crisis, they're especially vulnerable.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Or even more disturbing, if that's not from her, then who has her phone?

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Who's sending that?

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And there are sightings of her in the day or two after she misses the flight to New York, which indicate there's nothing there to indicate that she's already been harmed or is there under duress.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd want to know more.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would never accuse anybody or say anything like that.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Just what does the ex-boyfriend have to say?

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Why exactly did they become separated?

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, if you're in a couple and you go or maybe not even a couple, if you're, you know, going somewhere with somebody and you come back and they don't.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Getting information from that person about what happened, what made her skip out on these.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, if she was seen after the flight left, then.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And my understanding is he's cooperating.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Good.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, good.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, again, just because someone's with somebody doesn't mean it's their fault or they have a lot of information.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: She is seen long after he's already in New York.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But he could provide context for maybe the state of mind she was in.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And what, you know, did she meet someone?

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Did she want to extend the trip because she was having a good time?

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Did she, was something off?

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what, what happened to make her want to, you know, go, go stay in, you know, I don't know.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I don't, it seems like this might be, I hope this is a situation where the public can kind of get together to help find Hannah and, and kind of get her help and get her back to her family.

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_00]: That's, that would obviously be the, the best outcome to this.

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what, what do you think?

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think needs to happen for some answers to come out of this?

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I, I, I'm really glad that her family is having such success getting attention to this.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_01]: They're holding events to try to draw attention to the situation involving their daughter.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's often the absolute best thing a family could do in a situation like this because public pressure, not only is that a further prod to police and law enforcement, but it also is potentially a source of information for police and law enforcement.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Because if a missing person's face is plastered all over, then the odds are somebody might see it who might have information.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I have a phone number for Los Angeles place.

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_00]: If anyone has any information, please share it.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a call 1-877-527-3247.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, if you have any information on Hannah's whereabouts, call that number to get to the Los Angeles police.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And on, um, you know, just kind of, we, they don't need to hear theories.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I know our audience knows this, but like, if you send it to anyone else, they don't need to hear like possibilities.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_00]: They just, people who have seen her, that I think needs to be stressed.

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, and hopefully she can be found and, uh, be, be put in a safer situation because I just, I, my heart goes out to her family to be so far away.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, the feeling of helplessness must be awful.

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Want to do just one more case.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is one in order to talk about what happened this week.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I have to go back a ways and my sources for this are the Pensacola News Journal, WKRG, MyNBC15, and WEAR News.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a case involving Keith and Sheila Agee and, uh, 18 year old Brooklyn Sims.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So Keith Agee is a 20 year old man involved in some sort of relationship with Brooklyn Sims, who is 18 again.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_01]: She is the mother of his daughter and she is working at a home Depot and Keith's mother, Sheila is also working at that home Depot.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And so last, uh, August, I believe, uh, Keith gets some bad information.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_01]: He gets the impression that he has contracted a venereal disease.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And he believes that the person who gave it to him was Brooklyn.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And to his mind, that means that she has cheated on him.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And he is very upset about that.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And he exchanges, uh, some text messages with his mother.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And his mother basically encourages him to do something drastic about this turn of events, uh, namely to do harm to Brooklyn.

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And she goes so far, the mother goes so far is to give Keith the address of the Home Depot.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It says that when you come here, be sure you don't shoot me, just shoot her.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And you've read these texts.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think?

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I, I guess, uh, that this is going to sound harsh maybe to some people, but all I could think is how stupid are these people?

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_00]: How stupid are Keith and Sheila Agee?

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But I guess, you know, also, like, what kind of, I mean, I don't know, like, you think of a parent, a mother, any kind of parent, as somebody who's going to be, you know, hopefully providing guidance and counsel to a young person like a 20-year-old.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, she is because she's telling him where to go to commit murder.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, these, these, these, these, I mean, all I could think of is these people are awful.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's, that sounds kind of harsh, but, like, they're, they're having this, like, stupid, like, stupid entitled conversation about, like, we're going to kill this young woman.

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and the, and the mom, Sheila, is just like, just don't shoot my MF car.

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't shoot me.

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, what is wrong with you?

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Jesus.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I was disgusted.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It just, it's just like, this poor young woman.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't know what happened between her and Keith Agee.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't really care.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_00]: She's the mother of his children.

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Child.

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Child.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_00]: She's the mother of his child.

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and he's basically just talking about throwing her away and throwing her life away in a fit of anger where, frankly, the facts don't even seem particularly clear to me.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, his mother is supporting him in that.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You would think a mom in that situation would be like, no, don't ruin your life.

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's get all the facts and maybe, like, we can figure this out.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, don't, don't do something that's going to take you away from your child forever because you will inevitably get caught because you are texting about it with me.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So, again, it's not a situation where the mother even just knows about what's going to happen.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_01]: She's helping it happen.

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like she's helping plan it because she's giving him information about where to find this, this, this 18 year old.

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_00]: At one point she says, don't call nanny and tell her she will try to talk you out of it.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, maybe that's what you should have been doing, Sheila.

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what the heck?

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Sheila also says at one point, hold up, let me erase the text because I don't want nobody to know I was texting you.

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, uh, deduction there.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It, you know, it's, it's, it's like at one point she says, okay, whatever, I, I don't care what you do.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I D G AF because I'm going home today, not to hell or to jail.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't like to, does it, apparently this is not, that's not even a possibility for her in her mind.

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, like it, it just, I don't, I find it really, really.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So, so that's, that's the background.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Keith A.G., he already was tried and convicted, uh, a few months ago.

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So now, uh, Sheila has also been charged with first degree murder.

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, it's because of these texts, which indicate that she was helping, helping her son plan this crime,

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_01]: helping give, giving him information to make the crime possible.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So, uh, if these texts are accurate and to be believed, she was an active participant in this crime.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And so she is charged with first degree murder, which is obviously an incredibly serious offense.

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And she went on trial just this last week.

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And there were some jury problems.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, were they?

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, the judge, uh, Judge Coleman Robinson, uh, announced a mistrial.

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And there were some jury problems.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, some jurors reported that they were worried for their physical safety because of the loud disagreements in the jury room.

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, someone said that, uh, she felt her physical safety was in danger.

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Another person, uh, one of the jurors expressed to the judge that she doesn't feel, I'm quoting,

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_01]: she doesn't feel physically safe due to racial issues.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Another juror mentioned health concerns, uh, said, uh, this arguing is raising my blood pressure

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and could affect his pacemaker.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously, if you have a situation where jurors are intimidated or scared,

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_01]: then you have to be concerned that they are not in a position to really fairly and accurately

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_01]: go through and weigh all of the evidence.

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And in addition to all of that, there was a, another juror.

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I say another juror.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know who's who.

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know who's who.

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It may be the same juror because there, there, there are some indications that in some of the

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_01]: press reports, it's not clear, but there's some indications that one juror was at the center

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_01]: of a lot of this.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a juror who was, uh, apparently doing crossword puzzles while the trial was

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_01]: going on and was also doing crossword puzzles while the jury was deliberated.

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_01]: This juror has also made comments like it was the other 11 jurors were against her,

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_01]: which indicate that maybe some of these arguments, she was on one side of them and everybody else

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_01]: was on the other side.

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe because you weren't taking the process seriously at all.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're doing frigging crossword puzzles during like, yeah, I would be against that

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_00]: too.

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Look, you know, our whole system relies on 12 everyday people taking this seriously at the

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_00]: very least.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to be an expert.

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You have to just use your common sense, but it requires you to pay attention and to have

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_00]: someone disrespect the process that flagrantly that, that makes me, that makes my blood boil.

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Judge Robertson addressed the jury said there is a particular juror who has not treated this

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_01]: case.

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It's evident with the seriousness it should have.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And it continued back into the deliberation room.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_01]: The judge added, I cannot ever recall a juror doing a crossword word puzzle during a trial.

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Why could the judge not just boot this fool?

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, apparently at some point, some jurors suggested, why don't we just replace this

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_01]: one juror?

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And that seems to be prohibited under Florida law.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So basically one person being a jerk cost, I'm sure the county a lot of money and wasted

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_00]: everybody's time because this person couldn't be bothered to put the crossword puzzle down

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and pay attention.

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It's disrespectful.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And it frankly makes me sick.

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_01]: The crossword puzzle juror was a woman named Sally Sue Smith.

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_01]: She says, I didn't know it was a bad thing.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I do that when I'm, I concentrate and I'm listening.

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know I wasn't supposed to do it basically.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Like figure it out.

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_01]: She said, we retired to the jury room and started to deliberate.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It became obvious to me right away that I was in the minority of one versus 11 other people.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of shouting.

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I can shout too.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I do have a loud voice.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it sounds like someone who's just really obstinate and, you know, wants conflict because

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I tend to think that, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a 12 angry

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_00]: men situation where you're the one principled person who convinces everybody logically.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But then sometimes if you're the one who's like, I don't know, not paying attention at all,

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe you should consider maybe I'm in the wrong.

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, maybe that should at least cross your mind.

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, the judge said this same juror now in deliberation had another crossword puzzle.

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_01]: The same juror now took comments from another juror is a physical threat for her safety.

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So again, this one particular juror seems to be at the center of this.

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And the end result is that a mistrial is declared in order to protect the rights of Miss, uh, AG.

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And now everybody has to go through and have another trial because this juror didn't take her responsibilities

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_01]: serious.

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because this irresponsible and unaccountable person didn't take her, uh, responsibility

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_00]: seriously.

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Now I imagine the family of this young woman is going to have to go through all of this

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_00]: again.

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And people who loved her are going to have to go through all of this again.

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And frankly, I was critical of, of the defendant earlier because I think her texts make her

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_00]: out to be really bad.

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, this means that she's going to have to go through all of it again.

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And her attorney, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's unfair to everyone.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and the entitlement of this is just like, I mean, like there's just certain people who

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_00]: just do not seem to ever acknowledge that they might be in the wrong in a situation.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and, and, and to, to be like whipping out crossword puzzle after crossword, you know,

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_00]: no, you're not focusing if you're on a crossword puzzle.

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you've got some kind of, I'm sympathetic to people who are neurodivergent, or if you have

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_00]: some kind of trouble concentrating because of whatever reason, that's something that should

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_00]: come out and what dear, because that could affect your ability to be a responsible juror

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_00]: in this situation.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_00]: People need to know about it.

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, just, I'm like watching her interview now, just the smugness of this on, on, uh,

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_00]: W E A R channel three news.

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Just like, I don't know what I did.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone was mad at me.

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_00]: God.

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You speak with such passion.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm mad about it.

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone, everyone got, the whole process got basically messed up by just one person

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_00]: just not doing the right thing.

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an outrageous situation.

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that wraps up, uh, our final case by wonder, is there anything else you want

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_01]: to speak passionately about?

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_00]: There might be.

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You're welcome, by the way, for that transition.

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Which I think was very artful.

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was really good too.

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm snapping my fingers.

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, so in, in, in celebration, like an applause, you know, you're losing.

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, so get it back, get back your mojo.

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So we have t-shirts for all of our listeners.

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_00]: If you would so choose to purchase one, we have these beautiful t-shirts there.

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_00]: They have our logo emblazoned on them in beautiful succulent color.

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Succulent.

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_00]: That's probably the wrong word.

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_00]: In beautiful, uh, in, in gorgeous color.

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_01]: People have been looking forward to the return of these ads.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is what you're giving them.

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Why, you know what?

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Why are you being so negative?

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Why are you going to shoot me down so early?

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me get into the groove.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay.

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll step back.

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is what I have to deal with every day of my life.

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I set you up wonderfully.

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's all about you then.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm stepping back.

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_00]: What were we talking about?

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So the ads.

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So, um, the, the shirts rather, these beautiful shirts, murder sheet shirts, they have our logo

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_00]: on them in beautiful color.

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_00]: They have murder sheet people on them.

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_00]: If you know, there's a lot of murder sheet lore, I understand.

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But if, you know, that's a reference to, we were dubbed the murder sheet people at a hearing

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_00]: once.

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And so you can be a murder sheet person too.

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_00]: If you buy a shirt and, uh, you know, they're, they're, uh, they're priced affordably

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_00]: beautiful garments for, for you and your family, a number of different sizes.

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're all available for purchase on murder sheet shop.com.

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_00]: You just go there, you purchase them and you put in all your information and we will send

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_00]: them to you and you will have them to enjoy as a shirt, as whatever you want.

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, you can do whatever you want with them and then you can, uh, you can wear them

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_00]: proudly and that's, that's how it goes.

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you join our Patreon, uh, at the $5 level or up, you get a free shipping.

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll send you a code and you can plug that in and then you don't have to pay for shipping.

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So some, some deal, some, some synergy there.

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, I think the people who've gotten the shirts have, I mean, we haven't like strenuously

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_00]: polled everyone, but I don't think it's speaking out of turn to say the people we have heard

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_00]: from them don't hate them.

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, they love them.

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And they've made a novel, a number of, uh, extravagant claims about those shirts, which

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_01]: have not been evaluated by the FDA.

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But still seem pretty persuasive.

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_01]: People buy these shirts and get new jobs.

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_01]: People buy these shirts.

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And if they have a cold, they recover from the cold.

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_01]: People buy these shirts and, uh, they meet the love of their lives.

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Wait.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_00]: That could happen.

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Could happen.

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Could happen tomorrow.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Because the world is full of possibilities.

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_01]: If you trod the street in a Murder Street People t-shirt.

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of beautiful.

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And you can be part of the murder.

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Much like the shirt itself.

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_00]: The shirt is very beautiful.

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It really is a very nice shirt.

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think people found it was like true to size.

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So they appreciated that.

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_01]: My flowery words are not nearly as beautiful as these lovely garments.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_00]: God.

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So.

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You say you can use them for anything.

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't be surprised if people were buying these shirts and like framing them and hanging

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_01]: them in honored places in their home.

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_00]: To the consternation of their entire family.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Honey, what is this?

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_00]: People have to do a murder sheet intervention.

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, no.

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And we.

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And they support us.

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_00]: They help us.

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_00]: They help us out a lot.

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And.

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_01]: The shirts.

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_01]: The shirts support you?

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Buying the shirts.

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you hear their voices?

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_00]: The buying.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_00]: The act of buying the shirt.

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So you're like trying to hijack my ad and make me sound insane.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You said the shirts support me.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_00]: The shirts support me more than you do.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_00]: The shirts don't interrupt me and say weird things.

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Throw me off my game.

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_00]: At least not yet.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_00]: The shirts are going to kind of muscle their way in here one day and just start doing the

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_00]: ads themselves.

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, no, no, no.

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_00]: This.

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_00]: This is terrible.

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_00]: We're taking over.

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_01]: We can make many claims about the shirts.

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_01]: They're not sentient.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Not yet.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And don't tell people that the shirts are going to come alive and terrorize them because we

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_01]: want them to buy the shirts.

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Wouldn't that be kind of fun?

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you can experience magic shirts.

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to have a shirt that comes alive and will scare you.

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Boy, we got good news for you.

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You need to work more on this.

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_00]: You led me astray.

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: You led me astray.

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_00]: That's it's just to make your own ad next week look better.

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure it'll be something totally unhinged.

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll act like I said it with confidence.

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's good.

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not what I say.

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what the people say.

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So the people say.

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my gosh.

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we're done.

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think we are.

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But murder sheet shop dot com.

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the thing.

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Remember when I didn't even put the URL in that happened more than once.

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you buy these shirts.

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Good night, everybody.

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Didn't even tell them.

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a mystery.

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You just solve.

[01:00:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a scavenger hunt.

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to stumble across the URL.

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: URL randomly by chance.

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And sales plummeted after that and still have not recovered.

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my gosh.

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Are we done?

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I said we were done a minute ago.

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't even hit the stop record button.

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't you have to push a button?

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm sorry.

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I do.

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: It's your responsibility to end the show.

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Push the button.

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Goodbye, everybody.

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet.

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_00]: We very much appreciate any support.

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_00]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for listening.

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_00]: This show is phenomenal.

[01:02:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being.

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, he does it all.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a show for you.

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_00]: He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space.

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Just interesting people with interesting life experiences.

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward.

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I would liken it to, like, you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_01]: On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been a really good friend to us.

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a really terrific show.

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We really recommend it highly.

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think our audience will like it.

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_00]: He's been on our show a couple times.

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_00]: We've been on his show.

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a terrific guest.

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always – I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this.

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: That really resonated.

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: She quotes him to me all the time.

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I do – I'm like, I remember when Jason said this.

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: That was so right.

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think – and you like us, I think you should give it a shot.

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Give it a try.

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll really enjoy it.

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And, again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_00]: There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice.

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime, I think this is kind of the life-affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's compassionate.

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It's affirming.

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: People – Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[01:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's an accessible show.

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_00]: We're fans of the show.

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We love it.

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Download some episodes.

[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Listen.

[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:05:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Very easy to find.

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.