The JFK Assassination: A Conversation with Warren Commission Lawyer and Author Burt W. Griffin on Investigating the Murder of a President

[00:00:00] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of murder, including graphic description of gunshot injuries. When it comes to the assassination of John, President John F. Kennedy, the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy was tasked with investigating what happened.

[00:00:19] And of course, that is known popularly as the Warren Commission. And I think one thing is worth noting, when you have a presidential commission or a formal commission where they appoint distinguished men and women, certainly those distinguished men and women play a very important part in the proceedings.

[00:00:40] But by and large, in many cases, it's actually the staff of that commission that does all the day to day detail work of investigations or what have you.

[00:00:53] And so I was really thrilled and delighted that we got the chance recently to have a couple of conversations with a former staff member of the Warren Commission.

[00:01:04] Yes, this was former Warren Commission assistant counsel, Burt W. Griffin. Judge Griffin is an attorney with a very distinguished career. He worked as the executive director of the Cleveland Legal Aid Society, as well as the national director of the legal services program with the U.S. Office of Economic Opportunity. And then for many, many years, he served as a judge in Ohio.

[00:01:26] Most recently, he's added author to that resume. So he wrote an excellent book called JFK Oswald and Ruby Politics, Prejudice and Truth. And in this, he really got into his own experience serving on the Warren Commission and the investigation into the Kennedy assassination.

[00:01:46] This is our first episode with him. We're going to be talking to him again later on about kind of a specific topic that is really within his expertise, because Judge Griffin actually was one of the attorneys focusing specifically on the investigation into Jack Ruby, who, of course, shot and killed presidential assassin Lee Harvey Oswald.

[00:02:06] So we have a whole episode coming up just where we talk to him about nothing but Jack Ruby. But since this is approaching the anniversary of the assassination, we wanted in this episode to focus on the assassination of President Kennedy by Lee Harvey Oswald.

[00:02:23] This is a case that I've been interested in for many, many years. And so, again, I can't say enough. It was a real thrill and very exciting to me to get to talk to someone who was there, who played such a crucial role in the investigation of this crime.

[00:02:44] And again, we cannot stress enough. You should check out his book, JFK Oswald and Ruby Politics, Prejudice and Truth. We'll be including a link to that in our show notes. And you should absolutely read it. It's fascinating.

[00:02:56] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:02:59] And I'm Kevin Greenling. I'm an attorney.

[00:03:01] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:03] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:11] And this is The JFK Assassination, a conversation with Warren Commission lawyer and author Burt W. Griffin on investigating the murder of a president.

[00:04:08] Okay. I'd like to start by asking the obvious question that I think a lot of people have been asked over the years, which is where were you when you heard that President John F. Kennedy had been shot?

[00:04:20] Let me share that. This is age related, because any of us who were alive at the time that you heard about the assassination can never forget where we were.

[00:04:35] And those of you who were not alive at the time, but probably is like ancient history.

[00:04:42] In any event, I first heard about the assassination attempted on President Kennedy.

[00:04:49] At about 1.30, perhaps close to 2 o'clock in the afternoon, Eastern Standard Time, I was working in Cleveland, Ohio with a small law firm.

[00:05:00] And I was getting on the elevator to go to my office when someone in the elevator said, the president has been shot in Dallas.

[00:05:12] And my reaction was, so damn segregationist.

[00:05:17] Understand this is 1963.

[00:05:20] We didn't have cell phones.

[00:05:22] We didn't even have television sets in our offices.

[00:05:25] So I got off on what was about the 21st floor, went to my office, and we did have a radio.

[00:05:35] Our receptionist had a radio.

[00:05:37] So the rest of us went to work while she listened to the radio.

[00:05:42] And then, shortly thereafter, he said, the death of the president had been announced.

[00:05:48] At that point, we stopped working.

[00:05:50] We all went home.

[00:05:52] And we watched television for the next 72 hours.

[00:05:56] My first reaction was, as I said, that these were right-wing segregationists.

[00:06:05] We had had a series of assassinations and bombings earlier in 1963.

[00:06:14] In June of 1963, Medgar Evers had been murdered in Mississippi.

[00:06:19] He was a civil rights leader.

[00:06:21] In September of 1953, there was a bombing at the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama.

[00:06:33] Four teenage girls were killed, and numerous people were injured.

[00:06:37] So the normal thing for an outsider was to think it was another segregationist attack.

[00:06:45] But as we watched television, it seemed that that was not the case.

[00:06:50] For very quickly after the assassination attempt was announced, Lee Harvey Oswald was in custody.

[00:06:58] He was arrested because he had shot in one of the residential suburbs a Dallas police officer.

[00:07:09] And it immediately became apparent that Oswald was a Marxist and that he had been a defector, if we can use that term, to the Soviet Union, but had come back to the United States.

[00:07:25] My initial belief was that he was being afraid.

[00:07:31] That this was the right-wing of the FBI and the Dallas Police Department who were looking for a Marxist.

[00:07:42] They found him, and that was who they were going to arrest.

[00:07:47] And let me say this, we can talk a little bit about this, but I had, while at the time that the assassination occurred, I was in the private practice of law.

[00:08:01] I had previously spent two years as an assistant United States attorney prosecuting criminal cases in Cleveland, Ohio.

[00:08:10] And I had a lot of contact with FBI agents.

[00:08:14] And I knew very much, very much aware of how they were almost intimidated by the director of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover.

[00:08:25] So I was quite skeptical of the arrest of Oswald.

[00:08:31] Of course, continued to watch television hour after hour and was actually watching television on Sunday at about, again, about 1230 Cleveland time.

[00:08:46] When I saw Jack Ruby assassinate Lee Harvey Oswald.

[00:08:54] And of course, the fact that Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald meant that there wouldn't be a trial for Lee Harvey Oswald.

[00:09:05] And so people like yourself who had some understandable and reasonable skepticism, I think for a lot of people that made them even more skeptical.

[00:09:16] And then it became an issue.

[00:09:19] How can this be investigated?

[00:09:22] How can people figure out what happened if there's not going to be a trial?

[00:09:27] And wasn't that part of the reason why the Warren Commission was created?

[00:09:31] That's right.

[00:09:32] That's exactly why the Warren Commission was created.

[00:09:35] Interestingly enough, the murder of a president was not a federal offense.

[00:09:40] And the jurisdiction lay in the state in which the president was shot.

[00:09:49] Since he was shot in Texas, it was a Texas crime, not a federal crime.

[00:09:56] The state of Texas wanted to then undertake an investigation, even though they didn't have the power to prosecute.

[00:10:04] At the same time, members of Congress wanted to conduct their own investigations.

[00:10:10] And so it very much occurred that there would be a circus of investigations unless the president appointed a presidential commission.

[00:10:21] And so for the political reasons, the Warren Commission was appointed.

[00:10:28] Now, I'd like to point out also that the head of the FBI, Jay Edgar Hoover, was prepared to issue a report within days of the death of the president and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald,

[00:10:44] disclosing what the evidence was against Oswald and hoping that no further investigation would be conducted and that a report of the FBI would be accepted.

[00:10:56] So that's where we were when President Johnson appointed the Warren Commission.

[00:11:02] So how exactly did Judge Griffin end up on the Warren Commission?

[00:11:07] He says it was a complete coincidence.

[00:11:10] In 1963, he was already an accomplished young lawyer, although he was only 31.

[00:11:15] He had attended Yale Law School and was an officer of the law review there.

[00:11:19] He clerked for a U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals judge and then became an assistant United States attorney in Cleveland, prosecuting all kinds of criminal cases.

[00:11:28] Then he went into private practice.

[00:11:30] That's where he was when the assassination happened.

[00:11:32] At that time, he also had a very young family.

[00:11:35] He had two young sons with his wife.

[00:11:37] So late December 1963, he's really thinking more about Christmas and the holidays than anything else.

[00:11:43] Before New Year's Eve, he got a call from another Cleveland lawyer named David Filveroff, who was working at that time in the office of Attorney General Robert Kennedy, the assassinated president's brother, of course.

[00:11:57] And they knew each other from cocktail parties at the Ohio law firm Jones Day, which is now one of the biggest law firms out there.

[00:12:04] And that's also where one of Griffin's law school friends worked.

[00:12:07] They weren't super close.

[00:12:09] The Griffins actually dropped this guy from their Christmas card list because they fell out of touch after he went to work for Kennedy in Washington.

[00:12:16] But Filveroff wanted to know if Griffin wanted to work on the Warren Commission.

[00:12:21] Griffin, for his part, thought the guy had the wrong number.

[00:12:24] But no, he actually was asking around to see who he could recommend to Howard Wilkins, who was the Justice Department lawyer tasked with assessing different people who might join the commission for the general counsel, J. Lee Rankin.

[00:12:38] And they wanted a diversified staff.

[00:12:42] Well, diversification in 1963 was not the same as diversification in 2024.

[00:12:49] There were no women recommended to the staff other than secretaries.

[00:12:57] There was only one African American.

[00:13:01] What they were looking for was geographic and political diversity.

[00:13:06] And I happened to be one of the people that my friend knew, and they were looking for people who had some criminal justice background.

[00:13:15] And I had been an assistant United States attorney in Cleveland.

[00:13:20] My friend who was working for Robert Kennedy was able to think of names of people who were from the Midwest.

[00:13:30] So I met one of the qualifications, and he sent my name in.

[00:13:35] And I sent in a resume to Howard Wilkins, who was screening and selecting staff members.

[00:13:44] And I must say it did not hurt that I had gone to the same law school that he went to.

[00:13:49] Although I had not known him.

[00:13:52] He graduated two years before I did.

[00:13:55] So that's how I got on the commission.

[00:13:57] Damn.

[00:13:59] Now, I think most of us obviously know what the Warren Commission's task was to investigate not only the assassination of President Kennedy, but also the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald.

[00:14:12] But I'm curious, how did you spend your days?

[00:14:15] What was a regular, typical day like on the staff of the Warren Commission during its existence?

[00:14:21] Well, let me say that you asked the question, how do we spend our days?

[00:14:27] It was every day of the week.

[00:14:29] We worked seven days a week.

[00:14:31] We'd get there about 8 or 8.30 in the morning and would arrange to usually have dinner downtown and work until 10, 11 o'clock at night.

[00:14:46] So we were working 12 to 14 hours a day, seven days a week.

[00:14:52] That is true of the younger members of our staff.

[00:14:55] It was not true of the so-called senior members of the staff.

[00:14:59] But as far as the younger members were concerned, that was the way I worked and a number of my colleagues did.

[00:15:05] Now, what did we do?

[00:15:07] I suppose that's part of your question.

[00:15:08] Well, the first thing we had to do was examine all of the documents and reports and affidavits, interview statements and so forth that had been written.

[00:15:24] And therefore, that all of the investigations that was done by the Dallas Police Department, by the Dallas County Sheriff's Office, by the FBI, by the Secret Service.

[00:15:42] And we just had, you know, thousands and thousands of pages of reports to read.

[00:15:48] And of course, we had at that point the summary, the report that the FBI hoped that we would simply approve and publish on their behalf.

[00:15:59] That was how we started.

[00:16:00] But the commission decided very early on that it was not going to simply accept what the FBI and the Dallas police had provided for them in writing.

[00:16:17] But we decided that with respect to any individual who had been questioned, who had something significant to say, we would take their testimony.

[00:16:29] So we wound up taking the testimony of over 500 witnesses.

[00:16:34] In addition, there had been ballistics experts and other professional forensic experts who had been utilized by the FBI.

[00:16:48] We not only drew upon their reports and took testimony from them, but in every case where the federal government had produced a forensic report, we reached out to independent investigators for ballistics information.

[00:17:11] You kind of have touched upon this, but did the Warren Commission receive full cooperation from governmental agencies as you were doing this investigation?

[00:17:20] Well, I would answer that yes and no.

[00:17:24] We really did have the complete support of every agency that we asked to do anything.

[00:17:32] And that is that when we asked the FBI to conduct an investigation, they conducted it for us.

[00:17:38] When we asked the Secret Service or the State Department to conduct an investigation, they conducted it for us.

[00:17:44] However, they withheld information from us so that we could not know that there was certain information that we could have obtained.

[00:17:56] And we're talking about two very specific instances, one with the CIA and the other with the FBI.

[00:18:04] And perhaps you'd like to go into that.

[00:18:08] Well, we were never told that the CIA was, at the time that the president was shot,

[00:18:18] was involved itself in attempting to assassinate Fidel Castro.

[00:18:24] And there's no question that if we had known that,

[00:18:28] we would have reached out to every contact that the CIA had,

[00:18:34] whom they had enlisted in these assassination attempts.

[00:18:38] Since we didn't know that the attempt was made,

[00:18:40] and since they did not give us the names of it,

[00:18:44] and we're talking about assassinating Castro,

[00:18:47] I'm not talking about assassinating President Kennedy.

[00:18:50] Since we never got those names,

[00:18:52] we never conduct or never even had information

[00:18:54] that they were trying to assassinate Fidel Castro,

[00:18:59] we never conducted that investigation.

[00:19:02] And that, I think, would have been quite important, obviously.

[00:19:06] The second thing that happened was that the FBI specifically lied to us.

[00:19:14] Marina Oswald, who was Lee Oswald's wife,

[00:19:18] and Ruth Payne, with whom Marina was living,

[00:19:21] both testified that Lee Oswald had told Marina

[00:19:28] that he had sought out the FBI approximately 10 days

[00:19:34] before President Kennedy was assassinated,

[00:19:38] and that he had gone to the FBI office in Dallas,

[00:19:42] the office of the person who was assigned

[00:19:44] to kind of keep track of him.

[00:19:47] That was James Hostey.

[00:19:49] They had gone to Hostey's office to complain to Hostey,

[00:19:53] and Hostey was not there.

[00:19:57] Oswald had gone on a lunch hour from where he was working,

[00:20:01] and that he had left a note for Hostey.

[00:20:07] Hostey, when we learned that Oswald had told Marina

[00:20:12] and Ruth Payne that he had gone to Hostey's office

[00:20:16] and had confronted Hostey,

[00:20:19] we asked Hostey if that was true,

[00:20:22] and Hostey said no,

[00:20:24] that he had never come to the office.

[00:20:26] Well, in truth, he had gone to the office.

[00:20:29] When Hostey was not there,

[00:20:32] he had left a note for Hostey,

[00:20:34] and when Oswald himself then was shot by Jack Ruby,

[00:20:39] Hostey's supervisor told him to destroy the note.

[00:20:42] So we were not only not told that Oswald had gone to his office,

[00:20:50] but of course we never saw the note.

[00:20:52] And whatever the note said is only what we have learned

[00:20:56] from two of the people who claimed that they read the note.

[00:20:59] One was a receptionist at the FBI office

[00:21:03] who said that Oswald threatened to commit acts of violence against the FBI.

[00:21:11] And later on, when it was discovered,

[00:21:15] and this was a subsequent investigation about a decade later,

[00:21:20] Hostey admitted that Oswald had left the note.

[00:21:27] And Hostey said it was a much more benign note,

[00:21:32] simply that he complained that Hostey was trying to interview Marina Oswald,

[00:21:38] and that he wanted to interview anybody that he,

[00:21:43] that Hostey should come directly to Lee Oswald and talk to him.

[00:21:49] Now, what's the significance to us in our investigation

[00:21:56] of Oswald having gone to Hostey's office and tried to confront him?

[00:22:03] That was 10 days approximately before the assassination of President Kennedy.

[00:22:10] The conclusion that I draw on this is that at least 10 days before the assassination,

[00:22:15] Oswald was not thinking about assassinating President Kennedy.

[00:22:19] He would not have left a threatening note.

[00:22:23] If he was thinking of really wanting to assassinate the president,

[00:22:29] he wouldn't want to take the risk of himself being arrested

[00:22:34] for leaving a threatening note or threatening in any way an FBI agent.

[00:22:39] I think it's very significant in terms of what Oswald was thinking about,

[00:22:44] at least 10 days before the assassination.

[00:22:47] I'm just curious, with those pieces of information from the CIA and the FBI,

[00:22:52] had you had those at the time, would they have changed your conclusions

[00:22:57] or the Warren Commission's conclusions?

[00:22:59] Well, I think it would have enabled us to say much more clearly,

[00:23:05] as I said just a few seconds ago, that on November 12th, which was the date that Hostey

[00:23:14] ultimately said that Oswald came to see him, that on November 12th,

[00:23:19] Oswald was not thinking about the assassination.

[00:23:22] And therefore, that if there was any kind of a conspiracy,

[00:23:27] it would have had to have been something that was taking place between November 12th and November 22nd,

[00:23:34] but equally important, the likelihood was enhanced that this is simply a motive that Oswald came up on his own.

[00:23:43] So the question of the CIA trying to assassinate Castro is a much more complex area of investigation.

[00:23:54] Oswald actually did know that Castro was claiming that he was the subject of a possible assassination attempt

[00:24:07] from the CIA or others associated with the CIA.

[00:24:13] So what we needed to know was whether that was true or not.

[00:24:17] And we also needed to know how Oswald got this information.

[00:24:22] We know that Castro was saying this,

[00:24:25] but we could not be certain that Oswald knew that Castro was saying this.

[00:24:34] I think it would have required a much more extensive set of questions to Marina, his wife,

[00:24:43] as to whether she thought her husband was aware that the CIA was trying to assassinate Castro.

[00:24:49] So it would have greatly affected our thinking as to what Oswald's state of mind was.

[00:24:56] Right.

[00:24:58] And then I'm curious, in terms of the CIA and the FBI,

[00:25:01] do you have any sense of why they chose to hide those things from the Warren Commission?

[00:25:06] Well, absolutely.

[00:25:08] There were two—there were a different set of reasons.

[00:25:16] In Hosey's memoir, he made very clear he was ordered by his supervisor.

[00:25:23] The supervisor of his office in Dallas had told him to destroy the note.

[00:25:31] And Hosey says that his supervisor was greatly feared,

[00:25:37] that J. Edgar Hoover found out that Oswald had come and confronted Hosey

[00:25:46] and had less results that both Hosey and the supervisor would lose their jobs.

[00:25:53] So they were worried about being fired.

[00:25:56] The CIA issue is much more complicated.

[00:26:01] At the time that the president was assassinated,

[00:26:05] the anti-Castro activities of the CIA were being overseen by a committee that Robert Kennedy headed.

[00:26:20] And only a handful of people knew that the CIA was attempting to assassinate Castro.

[00:26:28] It's my own personal belief that Robert Kennedy did not want it to be known that his brother was—

[00:26:39] that he and his brother were attempting to assassinate Castro.

[00:26:43] That Kennedy's death, as it was known to the public,

[00:26:52] made him a bargain.

[00:26:54] But if he had actually been felt in attempting to assassinate Castro,

[00:26:59] it would have just been a matter of tip for his path.

[00:27:04] And so I think I'm quite satisfied that Robert Kennedy did not want the CIA to disclose that.

[00:27:16] Alan Dulles, who was a member of the Warren Commission and had been the head of the CIA,

[00:27:21] was aware of this, was a friend of Robert Kennedy.

[00:27:25] And I think that Kennedy and Dulles had an understanding that this would not be disclosed under any circumstances.

[00:27:40] I'm curious.

[00:27:41] We've made, obviously, many, many references to Lee Harvey Oswald,

[00:27:46] for, you know, again, for pretty clear reasons.

[00:27:48] I'm wondering, what can you tell us about his background prior to the events of November 22, 1963?

[00:27:57] Well, please feel free to interrupt me, because this is not a short story.

[00:28:02] I'll try to make it short, but I'm not too good at that.

[00:28:09] But Oswald, from the time he was a teenager, had become a dedicated Marxist.

[00:28:18] He grew up in a household in which he was, his father had died before he was born.

[00:28:25] His mother had a series of unsuccessful marriages.

[00:28:30] He was really a lonely child.

[00:28:35] Believe it or not, he had gone to a dozen different schools before he stopped going to school at all.

[00:28:41] He did not graduate from high school.

[00:28:44] But as soon as he was able to, when he was 17, he joined the Marines.

[00:28:49] He did not join the Marines for the purpose of being an American patriot.

[00:28:55] He joined the Marines to get away from his mother, as his older brother had done.

[00:29:02] His two older brothers had done that also.

[00:29:04] But even at the point that he joined the Marines, he had read Marxist literature, and he was a dedicated Marxist.

[00:29:15] When he finished his tour of duty in the Marine Corps after about, I think it was about two and a half years, maybe three.

[00:29:29] He came home to his mother, who was then living in Fort Worth, and within a couple of days, shipped out on a freighter to Europe with the intention of becoming a citizen in the Soviet Union.

[00:29:45] After a freighter trip across the Atlantic and a flight to Helsinki, he took a train and then asked to become a citizen in the Soviet Union.

[00:30:00] This was, we'll be talking about dates here, I think we're talking about 1959.

[00:30:07] And at that point, Oswald was 20 years old.

[00:30:12] The Soviets turned him down, but did allow him to stay.

[00:30:16] They turned him down for the citizenship application.

[00:30:19] They did allow him to stay in the Soviet Union and sent him to Minsk, where he had a factory job.

[00:30:27] He became very disillusioned with the Soviet Union himself, but very much attracted to Marina,

[00:30:34] who herself was somewhat of an orphan.

[00:30:38] After knowing her for only about a month, they were married.

[00:30:44] He quickly became pregnant.

[00:30:47] He immediately indicated, or shortly, not quite immediately, but shortly after the marriage,

[00:30:55] indicated that he wanted to leave the Soviet Union and come back to the United States.

[00:31:00] His goal in coming back to the United States was to be an active market, not post-Soviet,

[00:31:07] really anti-Soviet, because he had been so disillusioned with the Soviet Union.

[00:31:12] But he was looking for the perfect society.

[00:31:15] And ultimately, he thought it was either in Cuba, under Sadel Castro,

[00:31:21] or possibly even in China under Mao Zedong.

[00:31:25] So this is where things began to change substantial.

[00:31:30] He really had no friends or associates in the United States.

[00:31:36] He came back with his wife and four-month-old child in June of 1962,

[00:31:44] before it was.

[00:31:45] 1962 was an important year in his life because two things were happening.

[00:31:55] One is that the presidential election was being planned in 1964 by the Kennedy administration.

[00:32:09] Those who opposed Kennedy were becoming very active to oppose Kennedy.

[00:32:14] And those were people who were either segregationists.

[00:32:21] Judge Griffin notes that we need to remember that there was a lot of political strife at that time.

[00:32:28] Even though it had taken place some years earlier,

[00:32:30] the court's decision in Brown v. Board of Education still was a source of much tension and stress for many.

[00:32:39] That, of course, is a Supreme Court decision around the issue of desegregation and civil rights.

[00:32:46] And Griffin noted to us that some of the happenings that occurred three months after Oswald returned to the states,

[00:32:54] including the integration of the University of Mississippi by civil rights activist James Meredith,

[00:32:59] were also events that added to the stress and tension of the times.

[00:33:04] And it was opposed very actively in the first place by a Dallas resident who was anti-Kennedy,

[00:33:13] who had been a general in the United States Army, and that was Edwin Walker.

[00:33:20] This may sound familiar in some respects,

[00:33:23] but Walker, when Meredith attempted to integrate Ole Miss,

[00:33:32] went to a rally in Oxford, Mississippi,

[00:33:36] where the University of Mississippi is located,

[00:33:42] and purged a rally of well over a thousand people

[00:33:47] to block the entrance of Meredith to the University of Mississippi.

[00:33:56] The result of that was that three people were killed,

[00:34:00] and over a hundred National Guardsmen were injured.

[00:34:06] And General Walker, or former General Walker,

[00:34:10] who had led this rally, was elected the next day.

[00:34:15] He ultimately made bond, but the newspaper,

[00:34:19] one of the newspapers to which Oswald cried

[00:34:22] and received on a weekly basis,

[00:34:27] a Communist Party newspaper in New York,

[00:34:31] The Worker,

[00:34:32] published an editorial saying that Walker was another Hitler.

[00:34:37] When, in January of 1963,

[00:34:44] a Mississippi grand jury declined to indict Walker

[00:34:48] for what had happened at the University of Mississippi,

[00:34:53] Oswald bought his first weapon.

[00:34:56] And then he began to case Walker's house,

[00:35:01] and when he realized that he would not have to go up

[00:35:04] to the doorway and shoot with a pistol,

[00:35:10] he purchased the rifle,

[00:35:12] which he ultimately used to assassinate President Kennedy.

[00:35:15] In April of 1963,

[00:35:19] when Walker was preparing his income tax returns,

[00:35:23] working in a well-lit office on the first floor of the house,

[00:35:31] Oswald fired a shot with the rifle

[00:35:35] that he ultimately used to kill Kennedy.

[00:35:38] And the shot was deflected by a pane of glass.

[00:35:43] Oswald was able to escape.

[00:35:45] He was never identified.

[00:35:46] And so the really,

[00:35:51] the starting point

[00:35:56] of Oswald's attempt to engage in violence

[00:36:00] really began with the attempt to assassinate Edwin Walker.

[00:36:04] So let me stop at this point.

[00:36:06] And if you'd like to ask some questions,

[00:36:09] fine.

[00:36:10] If you want me to tie this in,

[00:36:12] I'll go ahead and do that.

[00:36:13] Yeah, no, this is great.

[00:36:15] Great. I wanted to ask you

[00:36:16] what the so-called Mazdam Manifesto was.

[00:36:21] Yes.

[00:36:22] The Mazdam Manifesto.

[00:36:24] The Mazdam

[00:36:26] was the name of the boat

[00:36:29] that Oswald and Marina

[00:36:32] and their young baby

[00:36:34] returned to the United States

[00:36:35] in a Dutch passenger liner

[00:36:42] that carried them from Europe

[00:36:44] back to the United States.

[00:36:46] Oswald spent his time

[00:36:48] writing out

[00:36:50] what he thought the ideal society would be.

[00:36:53] It's really a remark,

[00:36:55] and that's what I'm referring to

[00:36:57] as the Mazdam Manifesto.

[00:36:58] It's a manifesto

[00:37:00] of his views

[00:37:02] on what he would like to see happen

[00:37:04] in the world,

[00:37:05] not simply in the United States,

[00:37:07] what in the world,

[00:37:08] what kind of society

[00:37:09] he would like it to have,

[00:37:11] what kind of government

[00:37:12] it might have.

[00:37:15] And he spent his entire time

[00:37:16] on the Mazdam

[00:37:18] writing this manifesto.

[00:37:21] It's really a remarkable

[00:37:22] piece of work

[00:37:23] because

[00:37:26] here's a guy

[00:37:27] that

[00:37:28] only went as far as,

[00:37:30] I think,

[00:37:31] he graduated from

[00:37:32] the 10th grade.

[00:37:33] I don't think he finished

[00:37:34] the 11th grade,

[00:37:36] but he did

[00:37:37] get a GED

[00:37:38] when he was in the Marines,

[00:37:40] and he read

[00:37:41] voraciously.

[00:37:43] For one who

[00:37:44] wasn't interested

[00:37:45] in being

[00:37:46] a

[00:37:48] college or

[00:37:49] high school

[00:37:50] student,

[00:37:52] he was

[00:37:52] nonetheless

[00:37:53] extremely

[00:37:54] well-read,

[00:37:56] particularly

[00:37:57] in the area

[00:37:58] of

[00:37:59] political activity,

[00:38:01] political science,

[00:38:02] and Marxism.

[00:38:03] So he,

[00:38:04] his manifesto

[00:38:06] was

[00:38:06] his statement

[00:38:08] of

[00:38:09] attempt to lay out

[00:38:10] what he thought

[00:38:14] would be the ideal society

[00:38:16] and how it would be

[00:38:17] governed.

[00:38:19] And

[00:38:19] seriously enough,

[00:38:21] there would be gun control

[00:38:22] in his

[00:38:23] society.

[00:38:25] and

[00:38:27] it also

[00:38:28] kind of

[00:38:29] lays out

[00:38:30] how he

[00:38:30] thought

[00:38:31] he could

[00:38:32] bring this

[00:38:32] about.

[00:38:33] And he

[00:38:34] did not

[00:38:36] plan in the

[00:38:37] manifesto

[00:38:39] to bring it

[00:38:40] about

[00:38:40] to some

[00:38:40] kind of

[00:38:41] violent

[00:38:41] revolution.

[00:38:43] He

[00:38:44] thought

[00:38:45] that

[00:38:46] it would be

[00:38:47] possible

[00:38:47] in a

[00:38:48] non-violent

[00:38:49] way

[00:38:50] to

[00:38:51] labor

[00:38:52] movements

[00:38:53] and things

[00:38:55] to

[00:38:55] be able

[00:38:56] to

[00:38:57] capture

[00:38:58] political

[00:38:59] leadership.

[00:39:01] And he

[00:39:02] saw

[00:39:02] that

[00:39:03] nonetheless

[00:39:04] by

[00:39:05] the time

[00:39:07] the fall

[00:39:08] of

[00:39:08] 1963

[00:39:10] arrived,

[00:39:11] he had

[00:39:12] changed his

[00:39:12] mind.

[00:39:13] And of

[00:39:14] course,

[00:39:15] Castro

[00:39:15] had come

[00:39:17] to power

[00:39:17] through a

[00:39:17] violent

[00:39:18] revolution.

[00:39:19] His goal

[00:39:20] was

[00:39:20] to join

[00:39:22] Castro

[00:39:22] in Cuba

[00:39:23] and to

[00:39:25] attempt

[00:39:26] to be

[00:39:27] an assistant

[00:39:28] to Castro.

[00:39:29] Okay,

[00:39:30] so what

[00:39:30] happened to

[00:39:31] him then?

[00:39:32] After

[00:39:33] he

[00:39:35] attempted to

[00:39:36] shoot it

[00:39:36] unsuccessfully

[00:39:37] in April

[00:39:38] of 1963,

[00:39:40] Edwin

[00:39:40] Walker,

[00:39:41] Marina

[00:39:42] Oswald's

[00:39:43] wife,

[00:39:43] was very

[00:39:44] frightened.

[00:39:44] she was

[00:39:45] certain

[00:39:46] that he

[00:39:46] was going

[00:39:47] to try

[00:39:47] again

[00:39:47] to

[00:39:47] shoot

[00:39:48] Walker

[00:39:49] and

[00:39:50] she

[00:39:50] urged

[00:39:51] him

[00:39:51] to

[00:39:51] leave.

[00:39:53] Oswald

[00:39:53] then

[00:39:53] moved

[00:39:54] on his

[00:39:56] own

[00:39:56] without

[00:39:57] Marina

[00:39:59] to

[00:39:59] New

[00:40:00] Orleans

[00:40:00] where he

[00:40:01] had grown

[00:40:03] up as a

[00:40:03] child.

[00:40:04] He was

[00:40:04] not a

[00:40:05] native

[00:40:05] Texan,

[00:40:06] but he

[00:40:07] was a

[00:40:08] family

[00:40:08] he had

[00:40:09] originally

[00:40:09] lived in

[00:40:10] and he

[00:40:11] grew up

[00:40:11] in New

[00:40:13] Orleans.

[00:40:13] He

[00:40:14] went

[00:40:14] without

[00:40:15] Marina

[00:40:15] to New

[00:40:16] Orleans,

[00:40:17] arrived

[00:40:17] in early

[00:40:18] June

[00:40:19] of

[00:40:21] 1963,

[00:40:23] lived

[00:40:24] with

[00:40:25] his

[00:40:26] aunt

[00:40:26] and her

[00:40:27] family

[00:40:27] for a

[00:40:28] short

[00:40:28] while

[00:40:28] until he

[00:40:29] was able

[00:40:29] to find

[00:40:29] a job

[00:40:30] and then

[00:40:31] Marina

[00:40:32] came

[00:40:32] in the

[00:40:34] latter

[00:40:34] part of

[00:40:34] June

[00:40:35] of

[00:40:35] 1963

[00:40:36] and

[00:40:37] what

[00:40:37] he

[00:40:37] was

[00:40:37] doing

[00:40:38] and

[00:40:38] Marina

[00:40:38] was

[00:40:39] convinced

[00:40:40] of

[00:40:40] that,

[00:40:40] he

[00:40:41] was

[00:40:42] trying

[00:40:42] to

[00:40:42] earn

[00:40:42] and

[00:40:42] save

[00:40:43] enough

[00:40:43] money

[00:40:44] to

[00:40:44] be

[00:40:44] able

[00:40:45] to

[00:40:45] go

[00:40:45] to

[00:40:46] Cuba

[00:40:46] and

[00:40:48] indeed

[00:40:49] in

[00:40:50] August

[00:40:50] of

[00:40:50] 1963

[00:40:53] he

[00:40:54] suggested

[00:40:55] to

[00:40:55] Marina

[00:40:56] that they

[00:40:56] could

[00:40:57] hijack an

[00:40:57] airplane

[00:40:58] and go

[00:40:59] to

[00:40:59] Cuba.

[00:41:01] Well,

[00:41:01] at this

[00:41:01] point,

[00:41:02] Marina

[00:41:02] was seven

[00:41:03] months

[00:41:03] pregnant

[00:41:05] and

[00:41:07] she

[00:41:07] didn't

[00:41:08] feel

[00:41:08] that

[00:41:08] she

[00:41:08] was

[00:41:09] in

[00:41:09] great

[00:41:09] shape

[00:41:10] to

[00:41:10] engage

[00:41:11] in

[00:41:11] a

[00:41:11] hijacking

[00:41:12] of

[00:41:12] an

[00:41:12] airplane.

[00:41:13] Ultimately,

[00:41:14] he gave

[00:41:15] up the

[00:41:15] idea

[00:41:15] of

[00:41:16] hijacking

[00:41:16] an

[00:41:18] airplane

[00:41:18] but

[00:41:19] decided

[00:41:20] that

[00:41:20] he

[00:41:20] would

[00:41:20] try

[00:41:21] to

[00:41:21] go

[00:41:21] on

[00:41:21] his

[00:41:22] own.

[00:41:23] Meanwhile,

[00:41:25] Marina's

[00:41:26] Dallas

[00:41:26] friend,

[00:41:28] Ruth

[00:41:28] Payne,

[00:41:29] knowing

[00:41:29] that Marina

[00:41:30] was about

[00:41:31] to deliver

[00:41:31] a baby,

[00:41:32] persuaded

[00:41:33] her to

[00:41:33] come back

[00:41:34] and live

[00:41:34] with her,

[00:41:36] persuaded

[00:41:36] Marina

[00:41:37] to live

[00:41:37] with Ruth

[00:41:38] Payne by

[00:41:39] entering

[00:41:39] Texas,

[00:41:40] which is

[00:41:40] a

[00:41:41] suburb

[00:41:41] of

[00:41:42] Dallas.

[00:41:43] Meanwhile,

[00:41:45] in

[00:41:46] late

[00:41:47] September

[00:41:47] of

[00:41:48] 1963,

[00:41:51] Oswald

[00:41:51] went by

[00:41:52] bus

[00:41:52] to

[00:41:53] Mexico

[00:41:54] City

[00:41:54] and

[00:41:55] attempted

[00:41:56] to persuade

[00:41:57] the Cuban

[00:41:57] embassy

[00:41:58] to give

[00:41:59] him

[00:41:59] admission

[00:42:00] to

[00:42:00] Cuba

[00:42:02] just as

[00:42:02] he had

[00:42:03] been able

[00:42:03] to persuade

[00:42:04] the

[00:42:05] Soviet

[00:42:05] people

[00:42:06] to

[00:42:09] become

[00:42:09] a

[00:42:10] resident

[00:42:10] of the

[00:42:10] Soviet

[00:42:11] Union.

[00:42:12] But

[00:42:12] what he

[00:42:13] said

[00:42:13] that he

[00:42:15] was going

[00:42:15] to do

[00:42:15] it

[00:42:15] with respect

[00:42:16] to the

[00:42:18] Cuban

[00:42:18] embassy,

[00:42:20] he did

[00:42:21] not tell

[00:42:21] them that

[00:42:22] he was

[00:42:22] planning

[00:42:22] to live

[00:42:23] there

[00:42:23] on a

[00:42:24] permanent

[00:42:24] basis.

[00:42:26] He said

[00:42:27] that he

[00:42:27] really was

[00:42:28] just going

[00:42:28] to go

[00:42:28] back.

[00:42:29] He wanted

[00:42:29] to go

[00:42:30] by way

[00:42:31] of Cuba

[00:42:32] for just

[00:42:33] a 10

[00:42:34] day stay

[00:42:34] that he

[00:42:35] wanted

[00:42:35] to see

[00:42:36] what Cuba

[00:42:37] was like,

[00:42:38] what the

[00:42:38] Catholic

[00:42:38] regime

[00:42:39] was like,

[00:42:40] but that

[00:42:40] he was

[00:42:41] really

[00:42:41] planning

[00:42:42] to go

[00:42:44] on back

[00:42:45] to the

[00:42:45] Soviet

[00:42:45] Union.

[00:42:46] Unfortunately,

[00:42:47] he did

[00:42:48] not have

[00:42:48] a transit

[00:42:49] visa,

[00:42:49] he did

[00:42:50] not have

[00:42:50] a visa

[00:42:51] that

[00:42:51] gained

[00:42:52] admission

[00:42:54] to the

[00:42:55] Soviet

[00:42:55] Union,

[00:42:56] so the

[00:42:56] Cubans

[00:42:57] turned him

[00:42:57] down,

[00:42:58] and the

[00:42:58] Soviets

[00:42:59] would not

[00:42:59] issue

[00:43:00] him

[00:43:00] a

[00:43:00] visa,

[00:43:01] so he

[00:43:01] had to

[00:43:02] come back

[00:43:02] to

[00:43:02] Dallas.

[00:43:03] And

[00:43:03] on

[00:43:04] October

[00:43:05] 3rd

[00:43:06] of

[00:43:06] 1963,

[00:43:08] having

[00:43:09] been

[00:43:09] rejected

[00:43:10] by

[00:43:11] the

[00:43:12] Cubans

[00:43:12] and

[00:43:13] not

[00:43:14] having

[00:43:15] a

[00:43:16] visa

[00:43:16] to go

[00:43:18] back

[00:43:18] to the

[00:43:19] Soviet

[00:43:19] Union,

[00:43:20] he was

[00:43:21] in

[00:43:21] Dallas

[00:43:21] and had

[00:43:23] to get

[00:43:24] a job

[00:43:24] and support

[00:43:25] himself

[00:43:25] in some

[00:43:26] way.

[00:43:26] Meanwhile,

[00:43:27] Marina

[00:43:27] was not

[00:43:28] living with

[00:43:28] him.

[00:43:29] Marina

[00:43:29] was living

[00:43:30] with her

[00:43:30] friend

[00:43:31] Bruce

[00:43:32] Payne.

[00:43:33] In

[00:43:34] mid-October,

[00:43:36] I think it

[00:43:37] was actually

[00:43:37] October 19th,

[00:43:39] Marina

[00:43:39] delivered her

[00:43:41] second child.

[00:43:43] Oswald was

[00:43:44] living by

[00:43:45] himself in a

[00:43:46] rooming house

[00:43:47] in Dallas.

[00:43:48] His mind

[00:43:49] was still

[00:43:50] primarily

[00:43:52] on politics

[00:43:53] rather than

[00:43:54] his child.

[00:43:57] while Marina

[00:43:58] was in

[00:43:59] the hospital

[00:43:59] having given

[00:44:00] birth to

[00:44:01] the child

[00:44:01] three days

[00:44:02] after the

[00:44:03] baby was

[00:44:03] born,

[00:44:05] Oswald

[00:44:06] went to

[00:44:07] a rally

[00:44:09] that

[00:44:10] itself

[00:44:11] was being

[00:44:11] held by

[00:44:12] General

[00:44:12] Walker.

[00:44:13] He was

[00:44:14] really there

[00:44:14] to monitor

[00:44:15] what was

[00:44:15] happening

[00:44:16] and the

[00:44:18] purpose

[00:44:18] of the

[00:44:18] rally,

[00:44:20] the

[00:44:21] Walker

[00:44:21] rally,

[00:44:22] was to

[00:44:22] organize

[00:44:23] a group

[00:44:23] of people

[00:44:23] to disrupt

[00:44:24] a speech

[00:44:26] the next

[00:44:26] day by

[00:44:27] Adlai

[00:44:28] Stevenson

[00:44:28] in Dallas.

[00:44:29] That

[00:44:29] indeed

[00:44:30] happened.

[00:44:31] The

[00:44:32] result of

[00:44:33] the

[00:44:34] disruption

[00:44:34] of the

[00:44:35] speech

[00:44:36] and the

[00:44:38] fact that

[00:44:38] someone

[00:44:39] struck

[00:44:39] Stevenson

[00:44:40] on the

[00:44:41] head

[00:44:41] was an

[00:44:43] anti-Stevenson

[00:44:44] sign

[00:44:46] caused

[00:44:46] a great

[00:44:47] deal of

[00:44:47] fear

[00:44:48] among

[00:44:48] those

[00:44:49] who were

[00:44:50] planning

[00:44:50] the

[00:44:51] Kennedy

[00:44:53] trip to

[00:44:53] Dallas.

[00:44:54] A great

[00:44:54] deal of

[00:44:55] fear

[00:44:55] that

[00:44:55] something

[00:44:56] similar

[00:44:56] would be

[00:44:57] brought

[00:44:59] about

[00:44:59] by the

[00:45:00] Walker

[00:45:00] people

[00:45:01] when

[00:45:01] Kennedy

[00:45:02] gave

[00:45:02] his

[00:45:02] speech

[00:45:03] in

[00:45:03] Dallas

[00:45:03] on

[00:45:04] November

[00:45:04] 22nd,

[00:45:05] 1963,

[00:45:06] only a

[00:45:07] month

[00:45:07] later.

[00:45:08] There's no

[00:45:08] question

[00:45:09] that Oswald

[00:45:10] never lost

[00:45:11] interest

[00:45:11] in trying

[00:45:13] to,

[00:45:14] in some

[00:45:15] way,

[00:45:16] undermine

[00:45:16] the

[00:45:17] right-wing

[00:45:18] movement

[00:45:19] in the

[00:45:19] United States.

[00:45:20] to give

[00:45:22] you a

[00:45:22] short

[00:45:23] answer

[00:45:23] from my

[00:45:25] standpoint

[00:45:25] as to

[00:45:25] why I

[00:45:26] think

[00:45:26] Oswald

[00:45:27] ultimately

[00:45:27] decided

[00:45:28] to shoot

[00:45:29] Kennedy

[00:45:31] was that

[00:45:32] he believed

[00:45:34] and hoped

[00:45:35] that the

[00:45:36] water people

[00:45:37] would be

[00:45:38] the people

[00:45:39] who would

[00:45:39] be suspected

[00:45:40] to hopefully

[00:45:41] judge with

[00:45:42] the assassination

[00:45:42] of President

[00:45:43] Kennedy,

[00:45:44] and that

[00:45:45] even in any

[00:45:46] event that

[00:45:46] he was

[00:45:48] arrested,

[00:45:48] he would

[00:45:49] claim that

[00:45:50] the water

[00:45:51] people had

[00:45:51] done the

[00:45:52] shooting and

[00:45:52] that he

[00:45:53] had not

[00:45:53] done it.

[00:45:54] There are

[00:45:54] many,

[00:45:55] many more

[00:45:55] details we

[00:45:56] could go

[00:45:56] into here

[00:45:57] at this

[00:45:57] point,

[00:45:58] but I'll

[00:45:58] leave that

[00:45:59] for questions

[00:45:59] if you'd

[00:46:00] like me

[00:46:00] to do so.

[00:46:02] I was

[00:46:03] wondering

[00:46:03] if you

[00:46:04] could speak

[00:46:04] to how

[00:46:05] Oswald came

[00:46:07] to be a

[00:46:07] suspect in

[00:46:08] the case

[00:46:08] so quickly.

[00:46:10] Yeah,

[00:46:11] okay.

[00:46:13] Well,

[00:46:14] it's really

[00:46:14] quite an

[00:46:15] impressive

[00:46:16] bit of

[00:46:17] police work.

[00:46:17] Well,

[00:46:18] let's put

[00:46:19] it this

[00:46:19] way.

[00:46:19] The

[00:46:20] president

[00:46:20] was shot

[00:46:21] from the

[00:46:23] sixth floor

[00:46:25] of the

[00:46:25] Texas

[00:46:25] school

[00:46:25] book

[00:46:26] depository

[00:46:28] where

[00:46:28] Oswald

[00:46:29] had

[00:46:30] gained

[00:46:30] employment.

[00:46:32] And

[00:46:32] there were

[00:46:33] two witnesses

[00:46:34] to the

[00:46:35] shooting

[00:46:36] from the

[00:46:37] sixth floor.

[00:46:38] One was

[00:46:38] Howard

[00:46:39] Brennan,

[00:46:40] a 45-year-old

[00:46:42] pipe sitter

[00:46:43] who was

[00:46:43] taking a

[00:46:44] lunch break,

[00:46:44] and the

[00:46:46] other one

[00:46:46] was

[00:46:47] Amos

[00:46:47] Euin,

[00:46:48] E-U-I-N-S,

[00:46:51] who was a

[00:46:53] 14-year-old

[00:46:54] high school

[00:46:55] student who

[00:46:56] was probably

[00:46:56] cutting class.

[00:46:58] Both

[00:46:58] Euin and

[00:46:59] Brennan

[00:46:59] heard shots

[00:47:00] fired,

[00:47:02] looked up,

[00:47:02] and saw

[00:47:03] the shooter

[00:47:05] in the

[00:47:05] sixth floor

[00:47:06] window

[00:47:07] fire a

[00:47:08] second shot.

[00:47:10] Oswald

[00:47:11] then

[00:47:12] left his

[00:47:14] rifle,

[00:47:15] dropped his

[00:47:16] rifle on

[00:47:16] the sixth

[00:47:17] floor,

[00:47:19] went to

[00:47:20] the second

[00:47:21] floor to a

[00:47:22] lunchroom,

[00:47:23] was

[00:47:24] confronted

[00:47:25] by a

[00:47:27] police

[00:47:28] officer who

[00:47:29] also took

[00:47:29] the shot,

[00:47:30] came from

[00:47:31] the sixth

[00:47:31] floor.

[00:47:32] But when

[00:47:34] the manager

[00:47:36] of the

[00:47:37] technical

[00:47:37] school book

[00:47:37] depository said

[00:47:38] that Oswald

[00:47:39] was an

[00:47:39] employee,

[00:47:41] and in

[00:47:42] effect gave

[00:47:42] Oswald

[00:47:43] clearance,

[00:47:44] they went

[00:47:44] up to the

[00:47:45] sixth floor.

[00:47:46] Meanwhile,

[00:47:47] Oswald

[00:47:48] himself

[00:47:50] purchased a

[00:47:52] Coca-Cola,

[00:47:53] walked

[00:47:54] through a

[00:47:55] secretary's

[00:47:56] office with

[00:47:57] a Coca-Cola

[00:47:58] in his

[00:47:59] hand,

[00:47:59] out the

[00:48:00] front door

[00:48:01] of the

[00:48:01] Texas school

[00:48:01] book

[00:48:02] depository,

[00:48:03] and then

[00:48:04] walked

[00:48:04] seven

[00:48:04] blacks

[00:48:06] to hail

[00:48:07] a bus

[00:48:08] transit bus

[00:48:10] municipal

[00:48:11] bus that

[00:48:13] was stuck

[00:48:14] in traffic.

[00:48:15] Well,

[00:48:17] meanwhile,

[00:48:19] both

[00:48:20] Eulens and

[00:48:20] Brennan gave

[00:48:21] descriptions of

[00:48:23] Oswald,

[00:48:24] which were

[00:48:25] broadcast out

[00:48:26] over police

[00:48:26] radio very

[00:48:28] quickly.

[00:48:29] And when

[00:48:30] Oswald got

[00:48:31] on the bus,

[00:48:31] it turned

[00:48:32] out that a

[00:48:33] woman was

[00:48:34] seated on

[00:48:34] the bus who

[00:48:35] had been his

[00:48:36] landlady and

[00:48:37] who recognized

[00:48:37] him.

[00:48:39] The bus

[00:48:39] again got

[00:48:41] stuck in

[00:48:41] traffic,

[00:48:43] maybe went

[00:48:44] two or

[00:48:45] three blocks.

[00:48:47] Oswald then

[00:48:48] asked for

[00:48:49] a transfer,

[00:48:51] and in the

[00:48:52] midst of the

[00:48:53] stop traffic,

[00:48:55] got out of

[00:48:56] the bus and

[00:48:57] walked to a

[00:48:58] Greyhound bus

[00:48:59] station where

[00:49:01] he then

[00:49:01] engaged a

[00:49:02] taxi cab,

[00:49:04] had the

[00:49:05] taxi cab

[00:49:06] driver,

[00:49:07] driving past

[00:49:08] the roaming

[00:49:09] house that

[00:49:11] he had been

[00:49:11] staying in,

[00:49:12] and the

[00:49:14] cab drove

[00:49:15] past the

[00:49:16] roaming house.

[00:49:18] There were no

[00:49:19] police cars or

[00:49:20] anything in the

[00:49:21] area.

[00:49:22] So a block

[00:49:23] or so later,

[00:49:24] Oswald got

[00:49:25] out of the cab,

[00:49:26] walked back to

[00:49:27] the roaming

[00:49:27] house.

[00:49:28] Meanwhile,

[00:49:29] he had left

[00:49:30] a jacket at

[00:49:32] the school

[00:49:32] work depository,

[00:49:34] had left a

[00:49:35] rifle at the

[00:49:36] school work

[00:49:36] depository.

[00:49:38] He then

[00:49:40] secured a

[00:49:41] pistol,

[00:49:42] which he had

[00:49:44] in his room

[00:49:45] in the roaming

[00:49:45] house,

[00:49:46] and another

[00:49:47] jacket.

[00:49:47] He then

[00:49:48] began walking

[00:49:49] in the

[00:49:50] residential

[00:49:50] neighborhood,

[00:49:51] but the

[00:49:52] car driven

[00:49:53] by police

[00:49:53] officer J.D.

[00:49:55] Tippett saw

[00:49:56] Oswald walking

[00:49:57] in the

[00:49:57] neighborhood,

[00:49:58] probably

[00:49:59] thought that

[00:50:00] Oswald met

[00:50:01] the description

[00:50:01] that,

[00:50:02] was broadcast

[00:50:03] over police

[00:50:04] radio,

[00:50:05] stopped the

[00:50:06] car,

[00:50:07] stopped the

[00:50:08] police car,

[00:50:10] and hailed

[00:50:11] Oswald,

[00:50:13] got out of

[00:50:14] the car,

[00:50:15] walked to

[00:50:15] the front

[00:50:15] of the

[00:50:16] car,

[00:50:16] and when

[00:50:17] Tippett got

[00:50:18] to the front

[00:50:18] of the

[00:50:19] car,

[00:50:20] Oswald

[00:50:20] fired three

[00:50:21] shots in

[00:50:22] his body,

[00:50:23] dragging him

[00:50:23] to the

[00:50:24] ground,

[00:50:24] went over

[00:50:25] the body

[00:50:25] and fired

[00:50:26] another

[00:50:26] shot in

[00:50:27] his head.

[00:50:28] And then

[00:50:28] Oswald

[00:50:29] of course

[00:50:29] fled.

[00:50:30] He ultimately

[00:50:31] got to

[00:50:32] a commercial

[00:50:34] street,

[00:50:34] and by

[00:50:36] this time

[00:50:36] there were

[00:50:38] police

[00:50:38] sirens

[00:50:40] that were

[00:50:41] heard

[00:50:42] because

[00:50:43] there were

[00:50:44] two witnesses

[00:50:44] to the

[00:50:45] shooting

[00:50:46] officer,

[00:50:47] Tippett.

[00:50:48] And one

[00:50:49] of the

[00:50:49] witnesses

[00:50:50] was able

[00:50:50] to stab

[00:50:51] Tippett's

[00:50:53] police radio

[00:50:53] and tell

[00:50:54] the police

[00:50:56] that Tippett

[00:50:57] had been

[00:50:57] shot.

[00:50:57] so the

[00:50:58] police

[00:50:58] sirens

[00:50:59] were

[00:51:00] police

[00:51:01] cars

[00:51:01] that

[00:51:02] were

[00:51:02] going

[00:51:02] to

[00:51:02] the

[00:51:02] scene

[00:51:03] of

[00:51:03] that

[00:51:03] shooting.

[00:51:04] Meanwhile,

[00:51:05] when Oswald

[00:51:06] heard

[00:51:07] the sound

[00:51:08] of the

[00:51:08] sirens,

[00:51:10] he was

[00:51:11] in front

[00:51:13] of a

[00:51:14] shoe store

[00:51:14] which had

[00:51:15] a lobby

[00:51:17] and windows

[00:51:19] of course

[00:51:19] in the

[00:51:20] shoe store.

[00:51:21] So Oswald

[00:51:22] stood in

[00:51:23] the lobby,

[00:51:24] outside lobby

[00:51:25] of the

[00:51:26] shoe store

[00:51:26] with his

[00:51:27] back to

[00:51:28] the street.

[00:51:29] The

[00:51:30] manager

[00:51:30] of the

[00:51:31] shoe store

[00:51:32] saw Oswald

[00:51:34] and thought

[00:51:34] this was

[00:51:34] quite strange

[00:51:35] that a man

[00:51:36] should be

[00:51:37] standing

[00:51:37] with his

[00:51:37] back to

[00:51:38] the street.

[00:51:39] It became

[00:51:40] quite suspicious

[00:51:40] and when

[00:51:42] the sirens

[00:51:42] stopped

[00:51:43] indicating

[00:51:43] that the

[00:51:44] police cars

[00:51:45] were on

[00:51:46] their way

[00:51:47] to the

[00:51:48] Tippett

[00:51:48] shooting,

[00:51:51] Oswald

[00:51:51] turned around

[00:51:52] and went

[00:51:53] back on

[00:51:53] the street

[00:51:54] and walked

[00:51:55] another

[00:51:55] two or

[00:51:56] three

[00:51:56] storefronts

[00:51:57] to the

[00:51:59] Texas

[00:51:59] theater

[00:52:00] where the

[00:52:01] cashier,

[00:52:03] the outside

[00:52:04] cashier

[00:52:05] of the

[00:52:06] theater

[00:52:07] had herself

[00:52:08] walked

[00:52:09] to the

[00:52:10] street

[00:52:10] and so

[00:52:10] she was

[00:52:12] looking at

[00:52:13] where the

[00:52:14] sirens had

[00:52:14] come from.

[00:52:15] Oswald

[00:52:16] walked past

[00:52:16] her and

[00:52:17] went into

[00:52:17] the theater

[00:52:18] without

[00:52:18] paying.

[00:52:19] Meanwhile

[00:52:20] the store

[00:52:21] manager

[00:52:21] from the

[00:52:22] shoe store

[00:52:22] was following

[00:52:23] Oswald.

[00:52:24] he told

[00:52:25] the

[00:52:26] cashier

[00:52:26] to call

[00:52:27] the police.

[00:52:28] Police

[00:52:29] arrived very

[00:52:29] quickly.

[00:52:30] Oswald

[00:52:31] was

[00:52:31] likely

[00:52:32] to

[00:52:32] turn

[00:52:32] on

[00:52:33] the

[00:52:33] theater.

[00:52:34] The

[00:52:34] shoe store

[00:52:34] manager

[00:52:35] pointed out

[00:52:36] the person

[00:52:36] who was

[00:52:37] Oswald.

[00:52:39] A police

[00:52:39] officer

[00:52:40] approached

[00:52:40] Oswald.

[00:52:42] When

[00:52:43] the

[00:52:45] officer

[00:52:46] got to

[00:52:47] Oswald,

[00:52:48] Oswald

[00:52:48] pulled the

[00:52:49] pistol

[00:52:51] shot

[00:52:52] Tiffitt

[00:52:52] with,

[00:52:53] tried to

[00:52:53] shoot

[00:52:54] that

[00:52:54] police

[00:52:54] officer.

[00:52:55] The

[00:52:55] police

[00:52:56] officer

[00:52:56] grabbed

[00:52:58] the

[00:52:58] gun,

[00:52:59] able to

[00:52:59] grab

[00:53:00] his

[00:53:00] hand

[00:53:01] that

[00:53:01] was

[00:53:02] holding

[00:53:02] the

[00:53:02] gun,

[00:53:02] and

[00:53:03] stopped

[00:53:03] the

[00:53:03] gun

[00:53:03] from

[00:53:04] firing.

[00:53:05] Oswald

[00:53:05] was

[00:53:06] arrested

[00:53:07] less than

[00:53:08] an hour

[00:53:08] after

[00:53:09] President

[00:53:10] Kennedy

[00:53:10] had been

[00:53:11] shot.

[00:53:12] That

[00:53:12] really

[00:53:12] is,

[00:53:13] as you

[00:53:13] said,

[00:53:14] that's

[00:53:14] amazing

[00:53:15] police

[00:53:15] work.

[00:53:16] It's

[00:53:17] unfortunate

[00:53:17] that they

[00:53:18] did not

[00:53:18] do as

[00:53:19] a good

[00:53:20] job of

[00:53:20] actually

[00:53:21] protecting

[00:53:21] him.

[00:53:22] He

[00:53:23] ended up

[00:53:24] being

[00:53:25] killed

[00:53:25] a couple

[00:53:26] of days

[00:53:26] later

[00:53:27] by Jack

[00:53:28] Ruby,

[00:53:29] which of

[00:53:29] course

[00:53:29] brought about

[00:53:30] the need

[00:53:30] for the

[00:53:31] Warren

[00:53:32] Commission.

[00:53:33] I want

[00:53:34] to ask

[00:53:34] a question.

[00:53:35] I think

[00:53:36] I know

[00:53:36] what you're

[00:53:37] going to

[00:53:37] say,

[00:53:37] but I

[00:53:38] have to

[00:53:38] ask it.

[00:53:39] Did

[00:53:40] the

[00:53:40] Warren

[00:53:41] Commission

[00:53:41] take

[00:53:42] seriously

[00:53:42] the

[00:53:43] possibility

[00:53:44] of a

[00:53:44] conspiracy

[00:53:45] in this

[00:53:45] case?

[00:53:47] Not

[00:53:48] only did

[00:53:48] we take

[00:53:49] it

[00:53:49] seriously,

[00:53:50] Kevin,

[00:53:51] but that's

[00:53:52] what we

[00:53:53] wanted to

[00:53:54] either find

[00:53:55] a

[00:53:56] conspiracy

[00:53:57] or prove

[00:53:58] that a

[00:53:58] conspiracy

[00:53:59] did not

[00:54:00] exist.

[00:54:00] You

[00:54:01] know,

[00:54:01] the

[00:54:02] we'd

[00:54:02] have

[00:54:02] been

[00:54:02] national

[00:54:03] heroes

[00:54:03] if we

[00:54:03] could

[00:54:04] have

[00:54:04] found

[00:54:04] a

[00:54:04] conspiracy.

[00:54:05] One

[00:54:06] of my

[00:54:06] colleagues,

[00:54:07] Arlen

[00:54:07] Spector,

[00:54:09] ultimately

[00:54:09] hoped to

[00:54:10] be a

[00:54:10] candidate

[00:54:11] for

[00:54:11] president,

[00:54:12] became

[00:54:12] a

[00:54:12] senator

[00:54:13] and

[00:54:13] so

[00:54:13] forth.

[00:54:15] Any

[00:54:16] one of

[00:54:17] us,

[00:54:18] we were

[00:54:18] all,

[00:54:19] you know,

[00:54:20] we were

[00:54:20] younger,

[00:54:21] the

[00:54:21] younger

[00:54:21] warriors

[00:54:22] on the

[00:54:22] staff.

[00:54:24] The

[00:54:25] staff

[00:54:26] was

[00:54:26] divided

[00:54:27] into

[00:54:27] two

[00:54:27] groups

[00:54:28] of

[00:54:28] warriors,

[00:54:29] a

[00:54:30] senior

[00:54:30] lawyer

[00:54:30] and

[00:54:31] a

[00:54:32] junior

[00:54:32] lawyer,

[00:54:32] each

[00:54:33] of

[00:54:33] them

[00:54:33] constituted

[00:54:34] a

[00:54:34] team

[00:54:34] which

[00:54:35] would

[00:54:35] have

[00:54:36] responsibility

[00:54:37] for one

[00:54:38] particular

[00:54:39] segment

[00:54:40] of the

[00:54:40] investigation.

[00:54:41] The

[00:54:42] segment

[00:54:42] of the

[00:54:42] investigation

[00:54:43] that my

[00:54:44] teammate

[00:54:44] and I,

[00:54:45] Leon

[00:54:46] Hubert,

[00:54:47] had

[00:54:47] responsibility

[00:54:47] for was

[00:54:48] the

[00:54:48] Ruby

[00:54:49] investigation.

[00:54:50] And we

[00:54:51] absolutely

[00:54:51] tried to

[00:54:52] find a

[00:54:53] conspiracy.

[00:54:53] I

[00:54:54] personally

[00:54:54] thought that

[00:54:55] the most

[00:54:55] likely

[00:54:55] conspiracy

[00:54:56] was a

[00:54:58] conspiracy

[00:54:58] that would

[00:54:59] involve the

[00:54:59] police

[00:55:00] department.

[00:55:01] Because,

[00:55:02] you know,

[00:55:03] police

[00:55:03] officer

[00:55:04] Tippett had

[00:55:04] been shot

[00:55:05] there.

[00:55:05] There

[00:55:05] were a

[00:55:07] lot of

[00:55:08] angry

[00:55:08] police

[00:55:09] officers

[00:55:10] killing

[00:55:11] of

[00:55:12] officer

[00:55:12] Tippett.

[00:55:13] So I

[00:55:14] could

[00:55:14] envision

[00:55:15] Ruby

[00:55:17] himself

[00:55:18] being

[00:55:20] urged on

[00:55:21] by somebody

[00:55:22] even if

[00:55:24] it wasn't

[00:55:24] a planning

[00:55:24] process.

[00:55:25] our main

[00:55:26] decision

[00:55:26] to

[00:55:26] assassinate

[00:55:27] Lee

[00:55:28] Oswald.

[00:55:28] With

[00:55:29] respect to

[00:55:29] President

[00:55:30] Kennedy,

[00:55:31] yes,

[00:55:31] we wanted

[00:55:34] to determine

[00:55:36] whether or

[00:55:36] not Ruby

[00:55:38] or anybody

[00:55:38] else was

[00:55:40] involved in

[00:55:40] the conspiracy

[00:55:42] with Oswald

[00:55:43] to assassinate

[00:55:43] President

[00:55:44] Kennedy.

[00:55:45] You know,

[00:55:46] national

[00:55:47] security

[00:55:47] depends upon

[00:55:48] this.

[00:55:49] And as I

[00:55:50] said,

[00:55:51] we would

[00:55:51] have been

[00:55:51] heroes if

[00:55:52] we could

[00:55:53] have found

[00:55:53] that.

[00:55:54] And if

[00:55:55] we didn't

[00:55:55] find it,

[00:55:56] we would

[00:55:57] have been

[00:55:57] goats for

[00:55:58] life.

[00:55:59] So yes,

[00:55:59] we very

[00:56:00] much wanted

[00:56:00] to find

[00:56:01] a conspiracy.

[00:56:04] I wanted

[00:56:05] to ask

[00:56:05] you,

[00:56:06] what is

[00:56:06] the

[00:56:06] significance

[00:56:07] of the

[00:56:07] so-called

[00:56:08] magic

[00:56:08] bullet?

[00:56:09] And how

[00:56:10] do we

[00:56:10] know

[00:56:10] the single

[00:56:11] bullet

[00:56:11] theory is

[00:56:12] true?

[00:56:23] Well,

[00:56:24] hit both

[00:56:26] Kennedy

[00:56:26] and

[00:56:29] Governor

[00:56:30] Conley

[00:56:30] were

[00:56:31] true.

[00:56:32] Look,

[00:56:32] here's

[00:56:33] what we

[00:56:33] know.

[00:56:34] We know

[00:56:34] that there

[00:56:35] were no

[00:56:36] bullets

[00:56:37] found

[00:56:39] or even

[00:56:41] significant

[00:56:42] fragments,

[00:56:43] but no

[00:56:44] bullets

[00:56:44] found

[00:56:46] in the

[00:56:47] bodies

[00:56:49] of

[00:56:49] President

[00:56:50] Kennedy

[00:56:51] or

[00:56:52] Governor

[00:56:53] Conley.

[00:56:54] We know

[00:56:55] that there

[00:56:56] were three

[00:56:56] shots fired

[00:56:57] because there

[00:56:59] were found

[00:57:00] on the

[00:57:01] sixth floor

[00:57:02] of the

[00:57:02] Texas

[00:57:02] School

[00:57:02] Depository

[00:57:03] where the

[00:57:04] shots were

[00:57:05] fired from,

[00:57:06] three empty

[00:57:07] cartridges.

[00:57:08] And we

[00:57:08] know that

[00:57:09] President

[00:57:10] Kennedy

[00:57:10] was first

[00:57:12] struck by

[00:57:14] a bullet

[00:57:14] which entered

[00:57:16] from the

[00:57:18] back of

[00:57:18] his neck

[00:57:21] and was

[00:57:23] shot

[00:57:24] from the

[00:57:24] sixth floor

[00:57:25] window.

[00:57:26] But there

[00:57:27] was no

[00:57:27] bullet

[00:57:27] found in

[00:57:28] his body.

[00:57:29] There was

[00:57:29] not an

[00:57:31] exit wound

[00:57:32] that was

[00:57:32] seen by

[00:57:34] the autopsy

[00:57:35] physicians.

[00:57:36] However,

[00:57:37] there was

[00:57:38] a wound

[00:57:39] that was

[00:57:39] in the

[00:57:40] front of

[00:57:40] the

[00:57:41] president's

[00:57:41] neck

[00:57:41] that had

[00:57:42] been seen

[00:57:43] by the

[00:57:43] doctors who

[00:57:44] treated

[00:57:44] President

[00:57:45] Kennedy

[00:57:45] at

[00:57:45] Parkland

[00:57:46] Hospital.

[00:57:46] hole.

[00:57:47] And

[00:57:48] because

[00:57:48] there

[00:57:49] was

[00:57:50] a

[00:57:51] hole

[00:57:51] in

[00:57:52] the

[00:57:52] front

[00:57:52] of

[00:57:52] the

[00:57:52] president's

[00:57:53] neck,

[00:57:54] they

[00:57:55] used

[00:57:55] that

[00:57:55] hole

[00:57:55] to

[00:57:56] perform

[00:57:57] a

[00:57:57] tracheotomy

[00:57:58] in the

[00:57:58] hope of

[00:57:59] saving

[00:58:00] his life.

[00:58:00] They

[00:58:01] never

[00:58:01] turned

[00:58:02] the

[00:58:02] president

[00:58:03] over and

[00:58:03] did not

[00:58:04] know that

[00:58:04] there was

[00:58:05] an entrance

[00:58:07] bullet hole

[00:58:08] in the

[00:58:08] back of

[00:58:09] his neck.

[00:58:10] in the

[00:58:12] back of

[00:58:12] his neck.

[00:58:13] So that

[00:58:14] from what

[00:58:15] the

[00:58:16] set of

[00:58:18] physicians

[00:58:19] saw,

[00:58:20] they really

[00:58:21] saw two

[00:58:21] entrance

[00:58:22] wounds.

[00:58:22] One where

[00:58:23] the

[00:58:23] tracheotomy

[00:58:24] was

[00:58:24] performed

[00:58:26] and one

[00:58:26] in the

[00:58:27] back of

[00:58:28] his neck

[00:58:28] but no

[00:58:29] bullets,

[00:58:30] no exit

[00:58:31] wounds and

[00:58:32] no bullets

[00:58:33] in the

[00:58:33] body.

[00:58:34] When the

[00:58:35] Parkland

[00:58:36] Hospital

[00:58:37] doctors

[00:58:38] and the

[00:58:39] autopsy

[00:58:39] doctors

[00:58:40] had a

[00:58:41] chance

[00:58:41] in the

[00:58:43] midst of

[00:58:43] the

[00:58:43] autopsy

[00:58:44] to

[00:58:45] telephone

[00:58:45] and talk

[00:58:46] with each

[00:58:46] other,

[00:58:48] they

[00:58:48] concluded

[00:58:49] that what

[00:58:50] the

[00:58:51] autopsy

[00:58:53] excuse me,

[00:58:54] what the

[00:58:55] Parkland

[00:58:55] doctors had

[00:58:56] seen when

[00:58:57] they performed

[00:58:57] the

[00:58:58] tracheotomy

[00:58:59] was not

[00:59:01] an entrance

[00:59:01] wound but

[00:59:02] was an

[00:59:02] exit wound.

[00:59:04] And the

[00:59:04] reason that

[00:59:05] and this

[00:59:06] was also

[00:59:07] confirmed

[00:59:07] by the

[00:59:09] fibers

[00:59:10] in the

[00:59:11] president's

[00:59:12] shirt and

[00:59:13] coat

[00:59:14] and tie.

[00:59:16] The

[00:59:17] fibers

[00:59:17] in the

[00:59:20] president's

[00:59:21] shirt,

[00:59:21] the front

[00:59:21] of his

[00:59:21] shirt and

[00:59:23] the tie

[00:59:23] were pressed

[00:59:24] outward,

[00:59:26] indicating that

[00:59:27] the bullet

[00:59:27] had exited

[00:59:28] from the

[00:59:29] front of

[00:59:29] his neck

[00:59:30] where the

[00:59:30] tracheotomy

[00:59:31] was performed

[00:59:32] and

[00:59:35] grazed his

[00:59:36] tie.

[00:59:37] Okay,

[00:59:38] and we

[00:59:39] know that

[00:59:39] the shots

[00:59:41] were fired

[00:59:42] in a

[00:59:42] downward

[00:59:42] fashion.

[00:59:43] If there

[00:59:44] were no

[00:59:44] bullet holes

[00:59:46] or any

[00:59:47] bullets

[00:59:47] found in

[00:59:49] the limousine,

[00:59:50] but we do

[00:59:51] know that

[00:59:51] seated in front

[00:59:52] of President

[00:59:53] Kennedy was

[00:59:53] Governor

[00:59:54] Connolly and

[00:59:55] he was

[00:59:55] struck in

[00:59:55] the back.

[00:59:56] and he

[00:59:57] had a

[00:59:58] bullet hole

[00:59:58] that went

[00:59:59] to his

[01:00:00] back,

[01:00:01] exited his

[01:00:02] chest,

[01:00:03] struck his

[01:00:05] left wrist

[01:00:07] and no

[01:00:08] only was

[01:00:08] found near

[01:00:09] his stretcher

[01:00:17] in Parkland

[01:00:18] Hospital.

[01:00:18] It's actually,

[01:00:19] I think,

[01:00:21] the goal

[01:00:21] off of the

[01:00:22] stretcher

[01:00:22] when his

[01:00:23] body was

[01:00:23] moved.

[01:00:24] But in

[01:00:24] any event,

[01:00:25] the single

[01:00:26] bullet

[01:00:26] then,

[01:00:27] through the

[01:00:28] President's

[01:00:29] back,

[01:00:29] exited

[01:00:30] his neck

[01:00:31] where the

[01:00:31] tracheotomy

[01:00:32] was formed

[01:00:33] and would

[01:00:35] continue to

[01:00:36] forward and

[01:00:36] struck Governor

[01:00:37] Connolly.

[01:00:38] I think

[01:00:39] probably the

[01:00:39] question was

[01:00:40] why is this

[01:00:41] significant?

[01:00:43] Yes.

[01:00:44] Yeah.

[01:00:45] Well,

[01:00:46] because if

[01:00:47] there were

[01:00:47] two different

[01:00:48] shots fired,

[01:00:49] it was most

[01:00:50] unlikely that

[01:00:52] it could be

[01:00:53] fired by a

[01:00:55] single person

[01:00:56] firing Oswald's

[01:00:58] rifle,

[01:00:58] that the

[01:01:00] trigger action

[01:01:02] on the

[01:01:03] Oswald

[01:01:04] rifle was

[01:01:06] was not

[01:01:07] fast enough

[01:01:08] to enable

[01:01:10] two bullets

[01:01:11] to be

[01:01:14] fired in

[01:01:14] the period

[01:01:15] of time

[01:01:15] that the

[01:01:16] commission

[01:01:18] staff thought

[01:01:19] that the

[01:01:20] shots were

[01:01:21] fired.

[01:01:21] So that

[01:01:22] would mean

[01:01:23] that there

[01:01:23] was a

[01:01:24] second the

[01:01:25] bullet was

[01:01:25] never found

[01:01:26] because the

[01:01:27] bullet was

[01:01:28] found but

[01:01:29] was able to

[01:01:30] be tracked

[01:01:30] to Oswald's

[01:01:31] rifle.

[01:01:32] But there

[01:01:33] still would

[01:01:34] have meant

[01:01:35] that there

[01:01:36] was a

[01:01:36] possibility of

[01:01:37] a second

[01:01:38] shooter.

[01:01:39] And for

[01:01:40] what to tell

[01:01:41] you, there

[01:01:41] were no

[01:01:41] witnesses to

[01:01:42] a second

[01:01:43] person that

[01:01:44] Oswald left

[01:01:45] to hear.

[01:01:47] Another

[01:01:48] matter that

[01:01:48] I think

[01:01:48] some people

[01:01:49] have raised

[01:01:50] questions about

[01:01:51] is the

[01:01:52] story told

[01:01:53] by, and

[01:01:53] I hope I'm

[01:01:54] pronouncing her

[01:01:54] last name

[01:01:55] correctly, but

[01:01:56] the story told

[01:01:57] by Sylvia

[01:01:58] Odeo.

[01:01:59] Can you tell

[01:01:59] us what her

[01:02:00] story was and

[01:02:02] whether or not

[01:02:03] you find it

[01:02:03] credible?

[01:02:06] Well, let

[01:02:08] me say that

[01:02:08] some people

[01:02:09] think her

[01:02:10] story is

[01:02:11] credible.

[01:02:11] I don't

[01:02:12] think her

[01:02:13] story is

[01:02:13] credible, but

[01:02:15] I don't

[01:02:15] think she's

[01:02:16] a liar.

[01:02:17] Here's her

[01:02:18] story.

[01:02:18] She says

[01:02:19] that in

[01:02:21] late September

[01:02:22] two Cuban

[01:02:24] refugees

[01:02:27] and an

[01:02:29] American

[01:02:29] came to

[01:02:30] Sylvia

[01:02:31] Odeo's

[01:02:32] house for

[01:02:33] apartments in

[01:02:35] the early

[01:02:35] evening.

[01:02:36] Ashley

[01:02:36] and her

[01:02:37] helped

[01:02:38] them raise

[01:02:39] money for

[01:02:40] anti-castro

[01:02:42] activities in

[01:02:43] the United

[01:02:44] States and

[01:02:44] elsewhere.

[01:02:46] When Oswald

[01:02:47] was shot,

[01:02:52] she was

[01:02:54] only questioned

[01:02:56] by the

[01:02:57] FBI and

[01:02:59] believed

[01:02:59] that the

[01:03:01] two Cuban

[01:03:02] sending

[01:03:02] identified

[01:03:05] American

[01:03:09] was

[01:03:09] Lee

[01:03:10] Oswald.

[01:03:11] She

[01:03:12] believed

[01:03:12] that he

[01:03:15] had been

[01:03:15] introduced to

[01:03:16] her as,

[01:03:17] I think,

[01:03:18] Leon

[01:03:18] Oswald.

[01:03:19] Now,

[01:03:20] what makes

[01:03:21] it difficult

[01:03:22] to believe

[01:03:23] are a number

[01:03:24] of things

[01:03:24] that we

[01:03:25] know from

[01:03:26] other things

[01:03:26] that it

[01:03:26] would have

[01:03:27] been

[01:03:27] necessary

[01:03:27] for Oswald

[01:03:29] to have

[01:03:30] gone from

[01:03:31] New Orleans

[01:03:32] to Dallas,

[01:03:34] which is

[01:03:34] where Sylvia

[01:03:34] Odeo lived.

[01:03:36] On the

[01:03:36] same day

[01:03:37] that he

[01:03:39] ultimately

[01:03:39] was on a

[01:03:40] bus from

[01:03:41] Houston,

[01:03:42] wound up

[01:03:44] taking him

[01:03:46] through a

[01:03:47] series of

[01:03:47] connections

[01:03:48] to Mexico

[01:03:49] City.

[01:03:50] and although

[01:03:51] it was

[01:03:53] theoretically

[01:03:53] possible

[01:03:54] for the

[01:03:56] trip to

[01:03:56] have been

[01:03:57] made in

[01:03:57] that short

[01:03:58] period of

[01:03:58] time,

[01:03:59] it would

[01:03:59] have been

[01:03:59] a very

[01:04:01] close

[01:04:01] situation.

[01:04:03] But it's

[01:04:04] a significant

[01:04:04] story because

[01:04:05] what it

[01:04:06] means is

[01:04:07] that Oswald

[01:04:09] had,

[01:04:09] if it's

[01:04:10] true,

[01:04:11] that Oswald

[01:04:12] had some

[01:04:12] colleagues

[01:04:13] in the

[01:04:14] Cuban

[01:04:14] community

[01:04:15] that we

[01:04:16] did not

[01:04:16] know about

[01:04:17] and who

[01:04:18] might have

[01:04:19] been co-conspirators

[01:04:21] in an effort

[01:04:22] to assassinate

[01:04:23] Kennedy.

[01:04:25] So it's

[01:04:26] very important

[01:04:26] to find

[01:04:28] out whether

[01:04:29] she actually

[01:04:31] had a

[01:04:33] meeting or

[01:04:34] had a

[01:04:35] group of

[01:04:35] people who

[01:04:36] came to

[01:04:36] her,

[01:04:37] one of

[01:04:38] whom included

[01:04:39] Oswald.

[01:04:41] The reason

[01:04:42] I think

[01:04:43] that this

[01:04:45] is unlikely

[01:04:47] is that

[01:04:48] the description

[01:04:49] that she

[01:04:49] gave of

[01:04:50] Oswald

[01:04:50] was not

[01:04:51] characteristic

[01:04:52] of Oswald

[01:04:53] because he

[01:04:55] was described

[01:04:56] as a somewhat

[01:04:56] disheveled

[01:04:57] person and

[01:04:58] the interesting

[01:04:59] thing is that

[01:05:00] Oswald basically

[01:05:01] was a very

[01:05:02] neat person

[01:05:03] who was not

[01:05:05] a disheveled

[01:05:06] looking person.

[01:05:08] Second

[01:05:08] of all,

[01:05:10] she did

[01:05:10] not,

[01:05:12] that is

[01:05:12] Sylvia Odeo,

[01:05:13] the witness,

[01:05:14] did not take

[01:05:16] this story

[01:05:16] on her

[01:05:17] own to

[01:05:18] the police

[01:05:19] or to

[01:05:19] the secret

[01:05:19] service.

[01:05:20] She had

[01:05:21] been telling

[01:05:22] her friends

[01:05:23] in Dallas

[01:05:25] that she

[01:05:26] thought that

[01:05:27] Oswald had

[01:05:28] come and

[01:05:28] visited her

[01:05:29] and it

[01:05:30] was a

[01:05:31] wealthy

[01:05:32] friend of

[01:05:33] hers who

[01:05:34] went to

[01:05:34] the FBI,

[01:05:35] told the

[01:05:36] FBI that

[01:05:37] Sylvia Odeo

[01:05:38] had said

[01:05:39] that Oswald

[01:05:40] had visited

[01:05:41] and the

[01:05:42] FBI then

[01:05:43] some days

[01:05:44] after the

[01:05:44] shooting of

[01:05:45] President

[01:05:46] Kennedy came

[01:05:47] and interviewed

[01:05:48] Sylvia Odeo

[01:05:49] and Sylvia Odeo

[01:05:50] then told her

[01:05:51] story.

[01:05:52] I think

[01:05:52] and

[01:05:53] Sylvia

[01:05:54] incidentally

[01:05:55] was seen

[01:05:56] a

[01:05:57] for counseling

[01:05:59] was seen

[01:06:00] a

[01:06:00] psychiatrist

[01:06:01] on a regular

[01:06:02] basis

[01:06:02] both before

[01:06:04] and after

[01:06:05] the shooting.

[01:06:05] I had the

[01:06:07] opportunity

[01:06:07] to

[01:06:10] interview

[01:06:11] the

[01:06:12] psychiatrist

[01:06:13] and he

[01:06:14] told me

[01:06:15] I'm really

[01:06:16] surprised he

[01:06:17] talked to me

[01:06:18] I presume

[01:06:19] he had

[01:06:19] permission

[01:06:20] from Sylvia

[01:06:21] Odeo

[01:06:22] to talk

[01:06:23] to me

[01:06:24] but

[01:06:24] he said

[01:06:25] that she

[01:06:27] was capable

[01:06:27] of fantasizing

[01:06:28] that he

[01:06:29] thought that

[01:06:30] she

[01:06:31] in her own

[01:06:32] mind

[01:06:32] believed

[01:06:33] that these

[01:06:33] things were

[01:06:33] true

[01:06:34] that it

[01:06:34] was Oswald

[01:06:35] but

[01:06:36] that she

[01:06:37] might very

[01:06:38] well

[01:06:38] fantasize

[01:06:39] about it.

[01:06:40] We asked

[01:06:41] the FBI

[01:06:41] to track

[01:06:42] these people

[01:06:43] down

[01:06:45] that is

[01:06:46] track down

[01:06:47] the two

[01:06:47] Cubans

[01:06:48] that

[01:06:49] Sylvia Odeo

[01:06:50] claimed

[01:06:50] had

[01:06:51] approached

[01:06:52] her with

[01:06:52] Oswald.

[01:06:53] They were

[01:06:54] not able

[01:06:54] to get

[01:06:54] any

[01:06:55] confirmation

[01:06:55] of such

[01:06:57] events

[01:06:58] and

[01:06:59] the

[01:07:00] further

[01:07:00] thing

[01:07:01] I would

[01:07:01] say

[01:07:01] is that

[01:07:02] originally

[01:07:02] when she

[01:07:03] told her

[01:07:03] story

[01:07:04] the date

[01:07:05] that she

[01:07:05] gave

[01:07:05] the

[01:07:06] Oswald

[01:07:06] incident

[01:07:08] would not

[01:07:08] have been

[01:07:09] consistent

[01:07:10] with

[01:07:10] when we

[01:07:12] knew he

[01:07:13] was in

[01:07:13] New Orleans

[01:07:14] and when

[01:07:15] we knew

[01:07:15] he was

[01:07:16] in

[01:07:16] Houston.

[01:07:18] So

[01:07:18] my own

[01:07:19] feeling

[01:07:20] is that

[01:07:21] it's an

[01:07:22] important

[01:07:23] story

[01:07:23] because

[01:07:23] if he

[01:07:24] had any

[01:07:25] kind of

[01:07:25] associate

[01:07:26] we would

[01:07:27] want to

[01:07:27] know about

[01:07:28] it

[01:07:28] and we

[01:07:28] would

[01:07:28] want to

[01:07:29] track

[01:07:29] these

[01:07:35] my own

[01:07:35] conclusion

[01:07:35] as I

[01:07:36] said

[01:07:36] is

[01:07:37] that

[01:07:38] she

[01:07:38] believes

[01:07:39] the

[01:07:39] story

[01:07:39] that

[01:07:40] she

[01:07:40] is

[01:07:40] telling

[01:07:40] but

[01:07:41] she's

[01:07:41] not

[01:07:41] a

[01:07:42] reliable

[01:07:42] and

[01:07:43] credible

[01:07:43] witness

[01:07:44] not

[01:07:44] because

[01:07:45] she's

[01:07:45] deliberately

[01:07:46] falsifying

[01:07:47] but

[01:07:47] she's

[01:07:48] just

[01:07:48] mistaken

[01:07:48] what

[01:07:49] was

[01:07:49] the

[01:07:50] reaction

[01:07:50] once

[01:07:51] the

[01:07:51] findings

[01:07:52] of the

[01:07:52] Warren

[01:07:53] commission

[01:07:53] were

[01:07:54] published

[01:07:54] the

[01:07:55] public

[01:07:55] reaction

[01:07:56] yeah

[01:07:57] yeah

[01:07:58] well the

[01:07:58] public

[01:07:58] reaction

[01:07:59] was

[01:07:59] it

[01:07:59] was

[01:08:05] the

[01:08:05] widespread

[01:08:06] well

[01:08:08] let's

[01:08:09] put it

[01:08:09] this

[01:08:09] way

[01:08:09] the

[01:08:11] political

[01:08:11] reaction

[01:08:12] was

[01:08:13] that

[01:08:14] the

[01:08:14] Warren

[01:08:14] commission

[01:08:14] was

[01:08:15] accepted

[01:08:15] by the

[01:08:15] congress

[01:08:16] so

[01:08:17] that

[01:08:17] to the

[01:08:18] extent

[01:08:18] that

[01:08:19] the

[01:08:19] president

[01:08:19] had

[01:08:19] appointed

[01:08:20] a

[01:08:20] commission

[01:08:20] that

[01:08:21] would

[01:08:22] make

[01:08:22] it

[01:08:22] unnecessary

[01:08:23] to have

[01:08:24] a

[01:08:24] further

[01:08:24] investigation

[01:08:25] he

[01:08:26] had

[01:08:27] temporarily

[01:08:27] succeeded

[01:08:28] I

[01:08:29] think

[01:08:29] that

[01:08:30] there

[01:08:31] have

[01:08:32] always

[01:08:32] been

[01:08:32] a

[01:08:33] substantial

[01:08:33] number

[01:08:34] of

[01:08:34] people

[01:08:34] who

[01:08:34] regardless

[01:08:35] of

[01:08:35] what

[01:08:36] evidence

[01:08:37] the

[01:08:37] Warren

[01:08:38] commission

[01:08:38] had

[01:08:38] would

[01:08:39] not

[01:08:39] believe

[01:08:40] that

[01:08:41] Oswald

[01:08:43] was

[01:08:44] the

[01:08:44] shooter

[01:08:45] at all

[01:08:45] or if

[01:08:47] they

[01:08:47] believed

[01:08:47] he

[01:08:47] was

[01:08:48] the

[01:08:48] shooter

[01:08:48] they

[01:08:49] wouldn't

[01:08:49] believe

[01:08:49] he

[01:08:50] was

[01:08:50] not

[01:08:50] involved

[01:08:51] in

[01:08:51] a

[01:08:51] conspiracy

[01:08:51] we

[01:08:52] spent

[01:08:53] a

[01:08:54] little

[01:08:54] bit

[01:08:54] of

[01:08:54] time

[01:08:54] here

[01:08:55] talking

[01:08:55] about

[01:08:55] who

[01:08:56] Oswald

[01:08:56] was

[01:08:57] and

[01:08:58] a

[01:08:58] little

[01:08:58] bit

[01:08:59] of

[01:08:59] time

[01:08:59] what

[01:09:00] was

[01:09:00] happening

[01:09:00] in

[01:09:00] his

[01:09:00] life

[01:09:01] but

[01:09:02] I

[01:09:02] think

[01:09:02] if

[01:09:02] you

[01:09:03] really

[01:09:04] get

[01:09:04] into

[01:09:04] the

[01:09:04] details

[01:09:05] which

[01:09:05] I

[01:09:05] tried

[01:09:06] to

[01:09:06] put

[01:09:06] forward

[01:09:06] in

[01:09:06] my

[01:09:07] book

[01:09:07] JFK

[01:09:09] Oswald

[01:09:09] and

[01:09:10] Ruby

[01:09:10] colon

[01:09:12] politics

[01:09:12] prejudice

[01:09:14] and truth

[01:09:14] you

[01:09:15] if you

[01:09:16] really

[01:09:16] study

[01:09:17] carefully

[01:09:18] who

[01:09:19] Oswald

[01:09:19] was

[01:09:20] and

[01:09:20] what

[01:09:20] he

[01:09:20] was

[01:09:20] doing

[01:09:21] from

[01:09:21] the

[01:09:21] time

[01:09:22] that

[01:09:22] he

[01:09:22] got

[01:09:23] back

[01:09:23] to

[01:09:24] the

[01:09:24] United

[01:09:24] States

[01:09:24] from

[01:09:25] the

[01:09:25] Soviet

[01:09:25] Union

[01:09:26] and

[01:09:26] ultimately

[01:09:27] shot

[01:09:27] Kennedy

[01:09:28] and

[01:09:29] during

[01:09:30] the period

[01:09:30] of his

[01:09:31] arrest

[01:09:32] also

[01:09:32] you

[01:09:34] come to

[01:09:34] the

[01:09:35] conclusion

[01:09:35] I

[01:09:35] come to

[01:09:36] the

[01:09:36] conclusion

[01:09:36] that

[01:09:37] he was

[01:09:38] not

[01:09:38] capable

[01:09:39] didn't

[01:09:39] want

[01:09:40] and was

[01:09:40] not

[01:09:40] capable

[01:09:41] of having

[01:09:41] any

[01:09:42] kind

[01:09:42] of

[01:09:42] associate

[01:09:43] that

[01:09:44] he

[01:09:44] was

[01:09:44] acting

[01:09:45] on

[01:09:45] his

[01:09:46] own

[01:09:48] personal

[01:09:49] life

[01:09:50] had

[01:09:50] fallen

[01:09:50] apart

[01:09:51] Marina

[01:09:52] had

[01:09:52] rejected

[01:09:52] him

[01:09:53] he

[01:09:53] did

[01:09:54] not

[01:09:54] have

[01:09:54] a

[01:09:55] financial

[01:09:56] future

[01:09:57] his

[01:09:57] job

[01:09:58] at

[01:09:58] the

[01:09:58] Texas

[01:09:59] school