The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Fifteen: Allen's Family Speaks

[00:00:00] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls as well as mental health issues including suicide.

[00:00:09] Well, quite a lot happened in the trial of Richard Allen today for the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

[00:00:19] We heard from several witnesses, including a couple of members of Allen's own family.

[00:00:25] So we'll get into everything they had to say in just a moment.

[00:00:30] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:33] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:00:35] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:37] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:00:43] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:46] And this is The Delphi Murders. Richard Allen on Trial. Day Fifteen. Allen's Family Speaks.

[00:00:56] Well, as we have been doing lately, let's start with some housekeeping.

[00:01:45] Anya, can you tell us about the newest Lifesavers?

[00:01:49] Yes.

[00:01:50] Thank you so much to the Lifesavers from today, specifically Kay, Sierra and Julie.

[00:01:56] You guys saved our lives and you just have our eternal appreciation.

[00:02:02] Thank you for doing this and braving the elements and braving the rain to help us get into trial every day.

[00:02:08] That's our goal to try to cover this as much as we can.

[00:02:13] And we would not be able to do that and bring you any of this information if it weren't for Kay, Sierra, Julie and all the other Lifesavers.

[00:02:19] So thank you.

[00:02:20] Yeah, people literally start lining up for the next day's session before the previous days.

[00:02:27] And so we couldn't do it without the help of people like you.

[00:02:33] And our gratitude is eternal.

[00:02:36] Yes.

[00:02:37] Before we get into the substance of the day, let's also talk about the fact that the line situation has grown to the extent that it is now becoming more and more of a challenge to get into the afternoon sessions as well.

[00:02:54] And it's unlikely that we'll be able to consistently get in at this point anymore.

[00:02:58] At this point, I'll tell you that actually today in line, someone was like mouthing off.

[00:03:09] Is that fair to say?

[00:03:10] Well, someone was pretty mad.

[00:03:11] Yeah.

[00:03:12] And they were removed in order not to return to court.

[00:03:15] Yeah, there was a conflict.

[00:03:18] I don't like conflict.

[00:03:19] I don't like being immersed in this.

[00:03:21] I really don't.

[00:03:22] And Anya actually left the morning session before it ended to try to secure us a spot in the line.

[00:03:32] And she wasn't in time.

[00:03:34] So Anya would not have been able to get in to see the afternoon session were it not for the fact that, and this may surprise some of you, Anthony Greeno gave up his seat so Anya could see what happened in court today.

[00:03:50] It was really kind, and I just want him to know greatly appreciated.

[00:03:53] And thank you.

[00:03:55] Yeah, it was rough today with the line.

[00:03:59] It seems like people are telling people to come earlier and earlier.

[00:04:02] Some people arriving and only staying for like five minutes and then leaving.

[00:04:06] And then those seats don't fill back up.

[00:04:08] You know what I mean?

[00:04:09] Because the deputies are not – the deputies' goals are to keep everyone safe.

[00:04:14] They're not to make sure that the maximal seating is optimized.

[00:04:19] So if people are intending to only show up for a few minutes, we would just ask you consider that there are a lot of people who've been trying to cover this robustly.

[00:04:27] And those seats could maybe be put to use for them rather than – it's just not necessarily a good use, I think, when you have people trying to get into the public access issues and actually report on this.

[00:04:42] Including journalists from mainstream outlets who are also getting back in line so that they can cover it as robustly as possible.

[00:04:49] So I'm just – you know, just a note there.

[00:04:53] Yeah, I'm actually surprised by the number of people, including people who say they've traveled from other states and who stand in line for hours and then who only attend a half hour or less of the hearing.

[00:05:06] Like no shade because like I get it.

[00:05:08] Everyone's curious.

[00:05:09] It's just that a lot of people are really trying to get in to actually cover it all day so that others can have information.

[00:05:15] And I feel like that's maximizing the utility here.

[00:05:19] And again, when you leave, no one's coming rushing in to fill that seat.

[00:05:24] It's just going to be empty.

[00:05:27] So just something to consider.

[00:05:30] Well, with all of that said, should we just get right into the first witness of the morning?

[00:05:36] Sure.

[00:05:36] Let's see.

[00:05:37] So Brad Rosey called Dr. Polly Westcott to the stand.

[00:05:42] And I want to say, generally speaking, I thought he did a great job with this witness.

[00:05:47] Yeah, 100%.

[00:05:48] And I would say this witness, in my opinion, is probably the strongest witness that the defense has produced so far, even though there were some interesting things about this witness that were discussed.

[00:06:01] I'll say this, though, Kevin.

[00:06:02] I thought Dr. Dwenger was great, but she was a great prosecution witness based on what she was saying and the facts she was laying down.

[00:06:11] She was very good.

[00:06:11] She was a very professional, competent woman.

[00:06:14] But what she had to say tended to favor the prosecution in my mind.

[00:06:18] And I thought Rosie, by and large, did a great job with this witness.

[00:06:22] But one thing that I thought was a little interesting, and maybe there was a reason for this that somehow escaped me that you will be able to elucidate and help me understand.

[00:06:32] And the first or second question he asked this woman, this neurological psychologist, he asked her how old she was.

[00:06:44] Oh, I mean, they've been asking that of different people.

[00:06:46] Yeah.

[00:06:47] No, if you've missed that.

[00:06:48] Well, sometimes they ask them how to spell their names, and then sometimes they ask them, like, and their age.

[00:06:53] But that's not.

[00:06:54] Okay.

[00:06:54] This is the first time I noticed it.

[00:06:56] Maybe I've been dozing along.

[00:06:57] There's been a couple of other ones.

[00:06:58] I wasn't surprised by that.

[00:07:00] But no, yeah, I think that was something he's been asking different people, maybe with a nod to the news, because sometimes the news likes to put how old people are.

[00:07:10] Would you like that if I said, Anya, how do you spell your name and how old you are?

[00:07:13] I'm not embarrassed about my age.

[00:07:15] I mean, I don't think there's anything to be made of that.

[00:07:20] I think, Rosie, to expand upon your point, I think he did a good job laying this out.

[00:07:24] I think he did a good job sort of asking questions to tell a story, to direct the witness.

[00:07:29] And we've been hard on Rosie in this trial.

[00:07:31] There's been times where we've been sort of unimpressed with his performance.

[00:07:34] But I think today he did a really good job, and I wanted to give him credit for that in terms of kind of laying it all out.

[00:07:41] He had a clear roadmap with this witness, which he followed in a way that was easy for everybody to follow.

[00:07:47] And also, because of that, the witness was relatively brief.

[00:07:52] I think maybe under two hours?

[00:07:54] Yeah.

[00:07:54] It was like, you know, and we got the information.

[00:07:57] And I want to say about Dr.

[00:07:58] It feels that the Rosie of two weeks ago, this would have been an all-day witness.

[00:08:02] I think Rosie, for the cross-examinations, he gets too expansive in his goals and kind of just goes overboard.

[00:08:13] But when he has a specific mission for a direct examination, it was good.

[00:08:18] It was a good job.

[00:08:20] And this, of course, is a neuropsychologist who is based in the sort of Carmel, Indiana area.

[00:08:25] She's also a forensic psychologist.

[00:08:27] And what the devil does that mean?

[00:08:29] Well, I mean, like kind of her definition confused me a little bit.

[00:08:33] So if you have anything to bolster, but like something about kind of understanding mental health as it pertains to legal concepts as well.

[00:08:42] So she's basically coming in to, you know, determine if someone's competent to stand trial or if they're feigning symptoms.

[00:08:49] Is that kind of how she defined it?

[00:08:51] Yeah, basically.

[00:08:53] I don't know if that's like the technical definition, but she sort of defined it as far as like how it serves her in court.

[00:08:59] And with the neuropsychologist element, she talks about how it's almost like the science and bridging the gap between the medical world and the mental health world.

[00:09:10] Almost understanding how neurological function can influence one's behavior.

[00:09:15] And Dr. Westcott was hired by the defense team in May of 2023.

[00:09:21] And she is charging them $450 an hour for her work.

[00:09:28] But, you know, that's that's probably pretty standard, I would imagine.

[00:09:32] When you have experts coming in, they're going to need to get paid.

[00:09:36] And it was it was smart for Rosie to ask that up front so that the prosecution didn't ask it and be like make a big deal about or make it sound sketchy.

[00:09:45] This is this is standard.

[00:09:46] So he's basically saying he's kind of a you want to kind of get ahead of stuff like that where you don't want anyone making it sound weird.

[00:09:52] And it's also worth noting that she has a great deal of experiencing testifying both in depositions and in courtrooms.

[00:10:01] She says that she has testified a total of 72 times, about 25 of those times are in court.

[00:10:09] And she indicated that she has worked at times for the prosecution and other cases just for the defense.

[00:10:15] That's something lawyers like to bring out, because if someone comes across as an expert, sometimes people assume, oh, this is just a person that the defense always calls.

[00:10:25] Yeah, they pay them to say whatever they want and saying, no, sometimes I work for the prosecution.

[00:10:30] And in fact, she even did contract work at times for the Indiana State Police.

[00:10:34] It just shows that she's not just saying it because someone's paying her.

[00:10:38] Yes.

[00:10:39] And that's a fair thing to bring out.

[00:10:42] And yeah, we kind of went into her CV and then we started getting into this sort of process that she does in terms of looking at, I guess, people when she's trying to like do neuropsychology analysis on them.

[00:11:03] Yes.

[00:11:04] And what was that process?

[00:11:06] I wrote down like the numbers.

[00:11:08] Hopefully I got all of them.

[00:11:09] One, she looks at their mental health history to understand the context of who the person is.

[00:11:17] Number two, she does a neuropsychological examination.

[00:11:22] And three, she offers her opinion on the breadth and context of the person, in this case, Richard Allen, and looking at his decline.

[00:11:31] And she also wanted, in this case, to look at the context of his confessions in terms of how he was doing while incarcerated.

[00:11:46] Yes.

[00:12:09] And she's also wanted to look at the person, who, as you may recall, their entire job was basically to be outside his door, keeping an eye on him and reporting on any unusual or disturbing behavior.

[00:12:20] So she said that she had access to much, if not all of that material, which she used to help her form some sort of a preliminary view about Richard Allen.

[00:12:33] But then, of course, she did more than that because she actually went to Westville to meet Richard Allen in August of 23.

[00:12:42] And she did an evaluation there.

[00:12:45] The process took, I think, about seven hours, she said.

[00:12:50] Yeah, it was like two-hour interview and then testing five to six hours.

[00:12:55] Is that what you got?

[00:12:56] Yes.

[00:12:56] Yeah.

[00:12:57] And so two days sometimes, yeah.

[00:12:59] And then at some point after that, she went and talked to Cassie Alex.

[00:13:05] Yes.

[00:13:06] And she said she learned about his mental health, his childhood.

[00:13:10] And I guess we'll get into what she kind of went over the summary, I think, of his mental health history next.

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[00:16:30] Yeah, and she indicated that she generated a report on Richard Allen that was actually in excess of 100 pages.

[00:16:38] Mm-hmm.

[00:16:38] And so she was going to kind of refer to that and discuss her findings with the jury as directed by Rosie.

[00:16:45] So we start out with Richard Allen as a child.

[00:16:50] She said that he was a very anxious and fearful person from early childhood.

[00:16:56] She later on indicated that Richard Allen's biological father abandoned the family.

[00:17:03] Yes, and she also, which may have helped engender some rejection and abandonment issues.

[00:17:09] He also had a lot of anxieties about school as a child.

[00:17:14] He would fear when he went to school, he would worry that he would never be able to return home.

[00:17:20] And also he would worry that while he was at school, something terrible could happen to his family.

[00:17:26] So you just worry both ways.

[00:17:28] Sounds like almost some sort of pretty extreme separation anxiety for a child.

[00:17:32] I mean, like, he's upset about being separated from his family.

[00:17:36] That's a big part of this.

[00:17:39] Oh, go ahead.

[00:17:40] She also indicated that he was very, very worried about what others thought of him.

[00:17:44] And we got some indications of that also in some of the police interviews, I believe.

[00:17:50] Yes, he indicated that he was concerned about what other people think of him.

[00:17:54] He often thinks people think badly of him.

[00:17:56] And that makes him more of a closed off person.

[00:17:59] She said that when he got to adulthood, he actually at times was medicated for his anxiety.

[00:18:05] But that his anxiety ultimately led to bouts of severe depression.

[00:18:09] Which would make him feel worthless.

[00:18:12] And she indicated that when he experienced external stressors, he would crumble and fall apart.

[00:18:22] She said he had a lot of anxiety about failing at work.

[00:18:27] And she felt that that was largely not based in reality because over the course of his life,

[00:18:33] he basically has three jobs, each of which lasted for a long time.

[00:18:39] But one problem he would have is that when he would be promoted at work into like a managerial or supervisory position,

[00:18:46] it would then fall on him, of course, to like give orders to other people and tell them what to do.

[00:18:53] But that would give him anxiety that they would resent him and just give him more and more worry about everything.

[00:19:01] And she indicated a number of times since she said this, it would end a lot of these things.

[00:19:06] These stressors would end up with him, quote, curling up in a ball, crying, end quote.

[00:19:11] And that when that happened, sometimes he would really fall apart at work.

[00:19:14] And it would it would fall to his wife, Kathy Allen, to really put him back together and support him during that time.

[00:19:21] And what would typically happen would be he would get demoted from the managerial position.

[00:19:25] But they liked Richard Allen.

[00:19:27] And so they wouldn't fire him.

[00:19:28] They would just bring him back down to whatever position he'd be in.

[00:19:32] But that would also worsen his feelings because it was like I'm failing.

[00:19:37] I'm not providing for my family enough.

[00:19:39] I kind of rise to this part and then it come crashing down.

[00:19:42] So all of this was kind of a kind of a pattern of behavior where he's concerned about how he's doing and external stressors that may not be an external stressor for you and me.

[00:19:56] Like I think for a lot of people, if you get promoted, that definitely adds a lot of stress.

[00:19:59] But but it's not necessarily something that's going to knock you down so hard as as that in every situation, barring specific circumstances, I suppose.

[00:20:10] You kind of mentioned something a second ago that the doctor returned to you.

[00:20:17] You mentioned how he would crumble and then he would need Kathy basically to put him back together again.

[00:20:24] She talked about Richard Allen as having dependent personality disorder.

[00:20:29] Can you talk about what that means and especially the role Kathy plays in that?

[00:20:34] Well, what she indicated is that for someone with dependent personality disorder, this is a personality disorder, which is a which is a type of mental illness.

[00:20:45] And what it what it kind of gets into is alone.

[00:20:50] Quote, he feels very worthless.

[00:20:52] He really relies on Kathy and to a lesser extent, his mother, Janice, to tell him that he's worthwhile.

[00:21:01] And it's like this is a quote, quote, it's like they can't function alone, end quote.

[00:21:08] So this is a situation where people with this really need someone else, really need, you know, there's feelings of possible abandonment.

[00:21:17] She likened it to a vein, I believe, bringing nutrients to sustain somebody and indicated that this kind of came into fruition at one point because at one point Richard Allen was living far from his wife for work reasons.

[00:21:32] And she and her the daughter, Brittany, would come visit him on the weekends and whatnot.

[00:21:37] But it wasn't enough.

[00:21:38] And he ended up completely collapsing over that, too, at some point.

[00:21:42] And so it's it's very much a real personality disorder.

[00:21:45] She's saying Richard Allen had that and that Kathy was the center of that.

[00:21:52] He was she was the person he was dependent on.

[00:21:55] One thing that complicates that for me and that wasn't this is something that was not specifically discussed in court today, but it has been discussed previously.

[00:22:05] There have been references to Richard Allen cheating on his wife.

[00:22:08] Yes, there are.

[00:22:09] I'm just curious about how that would play into this dependent personality disorder.

[00:22:14] I know you don't have an answer to that because we're not experts, but I'm curious.

[00:22:18] I'm really curious, too.

[00:22:19] I also be curious and I don't know the answer to this.

[00:22:22] I don't I think the answer is probably no.

[00:22:25] But does this mean that Kathy Allen would possibly have dependent personality disorder?

[00:22:31] I don't think I don't think I don't think him having it means that she does.

[00:22:34] I know people have kind of talked about like codependency and stuff, but I think that might be a separate thing.

[00:22:40] So I don't think we should assume anything with with Kathy Allen just because he may have had this doesn't mean that she was necessarily as dependent on him.

[00:22:48] And without knowing more about the nature of their relationship, it's just interesting to kind of get more of the dynamics.

[00:22:53] We had said in some of his video interviews with law enforcement, he kept saying, well, I need to ask my wife.

[00:22:58] I need to ask my wife at the time.

[00:23:00] That seemed kind of performative to me because then when she comes onto the picture in the interview with Jerry Holman, he's telling her what to think.

[00:23:08] You know, I know, you know, I didn't do this.

[00:23:11] And it seems sort of like, OK, he's saying I need to check with my wife for everything.

[00:23:15] But then he's also basically telling her like it's it doesn't really seem like she's in a dominant role there.

[00:23:20] But it's possible that this can just look different across.

[00:23:23] I mean, I don't know.

[00:23:24] I mean, we're not psychologists, so it could look it could look different at different times or, you know, it's but it's one angle where this this professional is saying, yeah, I feel like that is is the case.

[00:23:35] And the next part was she talked about the conclusions of her report.

[00:23:39] And I thought this was a very interesting quote.

[00:23:42] I think I know what you're about to say.

[00:23:44] She said, quote, essentially, he's a fragile egg.

[00:23:48] She talked about Richard Allen being a very, very fragile egg.

[00:23:51] He came into this world, a little egg and his shell is not very strong.

[00:23:58] And he's basically, you know, getting to the point where he is, you know, having some having some struggles, I guess.

[00:24:08] And the stressors just tend to really knock him out.

[00:24:12] Right.

[00:24:13] So.

[00:24:15] The one the first part of her conclusions was that the fragile egg, in essence, was that number one, Alan has a long history of mental health issues.

[00:24:25] He's a fragile egg.

[00:24:26] That's that's point number one.

[00:24:27] Point number one.

[00:24:29] Point number two is that she wanted to get into lying, exaggerating, malingering.

[00:24:35] And what she indicated was through her work, there are certain, I believe, objective tests that can be done.

[00:24:44] Is that the phrase that they kept using?

[00:24:46] Yes.

[00:24:47] Where, you know, like there's it's like assessments where you can.

[00:24:52] Basically see in the way the questions are answered, if someone is either underreporting, exaggerating or feigning behavior.

[00:25:04] And, you know, she looked through the records, the audio and the videotapes as well to try to look for inconsistencies and things like that.

[00:25:14] And they kind of just like like I think Rosie, like we kind of ended this.

[00:25:19] But she later went back and said that she in the tests did not see any evidence of feigning or malingering.

[00:25:26] So when he's doing those cognitive tests, when he's doing those psychological tests, he's answering things in a way that seem consistent to this expert that don't seem like he's just saying it to like seem crazy or whatever.

[00:25:38] And the third part of her conclusions weren't that more about his ways of thinking.

[00:25:45] She kept on saying that Richard Allen is slow to think or to understand.

[00:25:50] She said, quote, his thinking is slow.

[00:25:53] His problem solving isn't great.

[00:25:55] He has a tendency to obsess over the same thing for a long time.

[00:26:00] He has a hard time jumping from one thing to another.

[00:26:04] He tends to ruminate a lot.

[00:26:06] He has a constant fear of failure.

[00:26:09] He just keeps worrying about things.

[00:26:13] He decides he's a bad person and just obsesses over it.

[00:26:17] Is that basically what this third point was about?

[00:26:19] Yes.

[00:26:19] And I kind of got the sense and I don't know if this was explicitly stated that like whatever slowness he was having got a lot worse in prison.

[00:26:28] Although I did.

[00:26:29] It doesn't necessarily like she's not able to say she can't go back in time and talk to pre prison Richard Allen.

[00:26:35] But she was saying he was functioning at a very low level in terms of some of that stuff.

[00:26:40] Four.

[00:26:41] She's looking at the decline in his physical and mental health, his suicidal ideation, the mumbling he does, possible psychosis, hallucinations, delusions, which are false beliefs.

[00:26:55] And, you know, things where he's just kind of staring off, defecating and eating it and drinking in the toilet and banging his head.

[00:27:02] So, you know, at this point, I believe I believe it was a Stacey Diener who was doing the cross made some sort of objection.

[00:27:13] And Judge Gull kind of indicated, you know, to the jury that whatever they were talking about wasn't substantive.

[00:27:19] But I think, you know, basically kind of his downfall.

[00:27:25] Five was all about the totality, I guess.

[00:27:28] And finding that this Westcott thinks that he has major depressive disorder.

[00:27:34] And that when that hit when someone with that hits a severe level of stress and, you know, depression, that that person can go into psychosis.

[00:27:48] So major depressive disorder with psychosis.

[00:27:51] He's not he doesn't have schizophrenia.

[00:27:53] He doesn't have a psychotic disorder.

[00:27:55] He has something else that can lead to psychosis.

[00:27:59] It sounds like when there's situations where someone's not taking care of themselves and is kind of spiraling.

[00:28:06] Yeah.

[00:28:06] And what I'm curious about in which I think wasn't really addressed or maybe it was and I missed it.

[00:28:15] If he now has this major depressive disorder and is capable of having stress which can lead to psychosis,

[00:28:26] is this something that she believes only developed after he was incarcerated?

[00:28:31] Or does she believe that the Richard Allen who suffered from depression and stress his entire life,

[00:28:38] was he always capable of having stress which would lead him into psychotic episodes even prior to his incarceration?

[00:28:48] And if so, could he have committed acts of violence while in one of those psychotic episodes?

[00:28:54] Yeah, that was kind of where.

[00:28:57] Yeah, I think you put it very bluntly.

[00:28:59] And I think it's.

[00:29:03] That's an area where.

[00:29:06] I thought this was a great witness, but there's some of her conclusions that certainly in.

[00:29:12] I think the jury questions reflect this.

[00:29:15] Certainly kind of get to the point where like, OK, yes.

[00:29:18] But can a mentally ill person do a bad crime?

[00:29:22] And I think everyone knows the answer is yes.

[00:29:25] And if this guy is basically falling apart constantly over minor work issues because of his mental illness,

[00:29:33] because of his issues, because of his personality disorder,

[00:29:36] then is it possible that he could have been set off years earlier and possibly done something horrible?

[00:29:43] And the answer, again, seems to be that the jury think that the people in the jury were kind of asking about things like that.

[00:29:50] We'll get to that.

[00:29:50] We'll get to that.

[00:29:51] But it's like it's a fair point.

[00:29:53] So something like this is like what I was really looking for is,

[00:29:56] is this witness going to be able to knock down the confessions more?

[00:29:59] So but there's one more thing.

[00:30:02] Six was factors, you know, like him being higher stress,

[00:30:10] being very dependent on his wife and solitary confinement.

[00:30:14] So those were like all the things she was sort of looking at.

[00:30:16] She said, quote, all of those factors, all those facts impute Richard Allen.

[00:30:26] Basically, I can't even read my handwriting, but basically could all these things kind of change his brain chemistry?

[00:30:31] And her finding was yes.

[00:30:32] Like if he's going through all this, it can it can lead to some bad stuff happening for him.

[00:30:37] And you mentioned your bad handwriting, which kind of flows neatly into the next topic.

[00:30:42] I want Dr. Westcott to tell me what the heck is wrong with me based on my handwriting.

[00:30:47] I think she'd just look at it and just like run.

[00:30:49] I mean, like it's really bad.

[00:30:52] Yes, yes, it is.

[00:30:53] There's no excuse for it.

[00:30:54] This woman just went through a high stress, terrible incident.

[00:30:58] It's like, no, just living my life here.

[00:31:00] I'm not going to lie and say it's good handwriting.

[00:31:01] Well, you know what?

[00:31:03] So Dr. Westcott wanted to indicate

[00:31:07] that she feels there's been a decline in the quality of Richard Allen's handwriting.

[00:31:11] She talked about back shortly after his arrest in November of 2022,

[00:31:16] he wrote a letter to the court asking for help with a public defender.

[00:31:21] And of course, more recently, he has written confessions indicating he's guilty of the crime he's charged with.

[00:31:28] And she feels that there is a decline in the quality of the handwriting.

[00:31:34] It has deteriorated.

[00:31:36] And she also indicates that his writing seems to be more fragmented and not as coherent.

[00:31:44] Mm hmm.

[00:31:46] And they actually used as an example is November 9th, 2022 letter to the court asking for help,

[00:31:52] asking for to get attorneys.

[00:31:53] And Stacey Diener was very adamant that that not, you know, they don't like go over that too much aside from the handwriting.

[00:32:00] So they did that.

[00:32:02] There was a sidebar.

[00:32:04] I wrote down at this point, very well-spoken, best defense witness for the defense slash their goals so far,

[00:32:11] because I was impressed with Dr. Westcott.

[00:32:13] I thought she was informative and reasonable and just sort of well-spoken on the stand.

[00:32:18] I just thought she did a good job breaking down all that she had done and the work.

[00:32:24] And it seems like, you know, I feel like she was definitely good.

[00:32:29] Although there were some stuff on cross that not not her fault, but I think just kind of there was the process.

[00:32:36] The state got some knocks in here.

[00:32:37] But but I thought generally she did great.

[00:32:39] You want to jump to cross?

[00:32:41] Is there other stuff?

[00:32:43] They kind of went over the letter.

[00:32:45] I'm trying to look.

[00:32:46] They went over the objective tests.

[00:32:48] I want to go over this a little bit.

[00:32:51] They talked about personality tests.

[00:32:52] So they went over the I think it was the NCMI.

[00:32:55] Is that right?

[00:32:56] Yeah, I think so.

[00:32:57] She talks about several different testing and comprehension.

[00:33:01] And these are supposed to be objective tests.

[00:33:03] Look for personally, both personality disorders and also personality features.

[00:33:08] These are like lifelong traits.

[00:33:10] So, you know, whether or not you're an introvert or an extrovert or if you have a mental health issue like bipolar, depression, anxiety and also malingering and under under reporting.

[00:33:20] Interesting.

[00:33:22] And I believe.

[00:33:25] She.

[00:33:27] This got into a big debate with Diener, who's very much kind of ready with the kind of objections today and sort of saying, you know, you're going to talk about this one test, but you wouldn't give us the prosecution, all of the tests.

[00:33:45] And this went back and forth a lot where the where Rosie was like, well, we gave you this other thing.

[00:33:51] And Diener's like, yeah, but you didn't give us all the tests that we asked for.

[00:33:55] And he's like, well, you could have deposed Dr. Westcott.

[00:33:58] And she's like, whether or not we want to depose Dr.

[00:34:01] Westcott's irrelevant.

[00:34:01] And I think Gull at one point was like, that's a discovery issue.

[00:34:06] Discovery goes both ways.

[00:34:07] I mean, so there was there was some some back and forth there.

[00:34:13] And in all fairness, discovery is mutual and not exclusive, said Judge Gull.

[00:34:18] And and then they ended up kind of doing something a bit different.

[00:34:21] But some things on his personality tests.

[00:34:25] Richard Allen keeps to himself.

[00:34:27] Richard Allen is extremely dependent.

[00:34:30] Richard Allen avoids conflict and confrontation.

[00:34:33] Richard Allen fears rejection.

[00:34:35] Richard Allen tends to be quiet.

[00:34:36] Richard Allen pulls away.

[00:34:37] So these are some different.

[00:34:41] You know, he's not very resilient.

[00:34:45] He has a lot of he's got a lot of issues.

[00:34:49] And I was just kind of thinking one thing about the she really emphasized passiveness, lack of confrontation.

[00:34:55] And I think I'm you know, I don't I don't doubt this expert, obviously.

[00:35:01] But when we saw the video of him interacting, especially with Liggett and Mullen.

[00:35:07] I didn't get the lack of confrontation there.

[00:35:10] No, I didn't.

[00:35:11] He literally walks out of the room yelling that Mullen is an asshole.

[00:35:16] After what I felt was Mullen being pretty quiet and calm.

[00:35:21] It's not like Mullen gets in his face.

[00:35:22] He's he's getting pissed.

[00:35:24] I could see the lack of confrontation in that he takes a long time to actually leave.

[00:35:30] Whereas I feel like a lot of other people be like, get me out of here.

[00:35:33] But he he he seems to be voicing anger, frustration, things like that pretty readily.

[00:35:38] So. Yeah, I mean, did you did did did her findings reflect sort of some of the things you've seen from Richard Allen in terms of these videos that we've watched?

[00:35:49] I would agree with you.

[00:35:50] He does not seem passive in that video.

[00:35:52] Not at all.

[00:35:53] Nor does he seem passive in his conversation with Kathy during the aforementioned Holman video where, you know, he's telling her what to think.

[00:36:01] He's immediately kind of telling her here.

[00:36:04] Here's like I would have almost expected a more passive subservient man to be like, Kathy, what do I do?

[00:36:11] I'm so scared, like and like let her take care of it.

[00:36:13] But he's immediately telling her, I know you don't think I did this.

[00:36:18] Because I because you know me.

[00:36:20] I know you know me.

[00:36:21] I know you know me and I couldn't do it.

[00:36:23] And so I just that didn't I'd be I wish they had drilled down on that a little bit more just to kind of like give us more of a sense.

[00:36:29] Like what does passive mean?

[00:36:31] What is submissive mean?

[00:36:33] Like could that mean different things for different people or for a man versus a woman?

[00:36:37] I don't know.

[00:36:39] Just a thought.

[00:36:40] So let's get into this cross-examination.

[00:36:43] This was a great cross-examination.

[00:36:45] Stacey Diener is very good at what she does.

[00:36:47] So she started off by by talking about, oh, you talked about how he was in sensory deprivation and was so isolated.

[00:36:56] But, you know, isn't it true that he saw Dr. Walla, for instance, every day?

[00:37:03] And he also had rec periods every day or five days a week, I believe, and all this other stuff.

[00:37:07] Of showers, going to the showers?

[00:37:09] Going to the showers.

[00:37:10] And so isn't all that true.

[00:37:11] And Dr. Westcott conceded it was.

[00:37:14] And then Stacey Diener made an excellent point.

[00:37:17] In the direct examination at one point when Dr. Westcott was discussing the records she used to form her evaluations,

[00:37:25] she said that she believed she had examined 30 to 50 of Dr. Walla's notes about her sessions with Richard Allen.

[00:37:35] And Stacey Diener pointed out, we know, she saw him every day.

[00:37:38] There should have been a heck of a lot more than 30 or 50 of these.

[00:37:42] Why do you suppose you only saw such a small percentage of them?

[00:37:47] She said, quote, who decided what notes you got?

[00:37:49] End quote.

[00:37:50] That was pointed.

[00:37:51] Yes, it's certainly creating the impression that she was just given limited materials, perhaps by the defense,

[00:37:59] in order to get whatever diagnosis they wanted.

[00:38:03] She also talked about how in the direct examination, Dr. Westcott had indicated that Richard Allen's window was cracked and so he couldn't see outside.

[00:38:15] But Stacey Diener pointed out, you know, Dr. Walla's intervened and got that window replaced.

[00:38:23] Yeah. And so it wasn't like he was dealing with it the whole time.

[00:38:27] It was like an issue that was then resolved.

[00:38:29] She also indicated that Dr. Westcott was in her report noted confessions that were incompatible with the facts of the case.

[00:38:38] She's saying that Richard Allen made confessions that were incompatible with the facts of the case.

[00:38:42] And so Stacey Diener said, well, how would you know whether or not the confessions were incompatible?

[00:38:48] Did the defense attorneys tell you about the facts of the case? And she said, Westcott said no.

[00:38:53] No, not at all. And her explanation is apparently in one of the confessions Richard Allen says that Satan killed the girls.

[00:39:04] So, I mean, that's fair to say. I mean, like.

[00:39:08] It's fair to say what?

[00:39:09] Well, I don't know. I mean, like, I could understand a psychologist looking at that and saying, well, that's not what happened.

[00:39:14] A human person killed the girls.

[00:39:19] I don't know if a person says that if they are speaking literally.

[00:39:24] If, you know, I eat too much Captain D's and get sick.

[00:39:30] And you say Satan ate the Captain D's?

[00:39:32] Then I'm going to be very concerned about you.

[00:39:35] So please don't say that.

[00:39:36] And then but I would also say that, like, one thing that was kind of well, they got more into the confessions and maybe what Dr.

[00:39:46] Westcott knew or what she didn't know about that.

[00:39:49] But, yeah, it seemed like that would be an overstatement if that's all she's basing it off of.

[00:39:55] But I also I don't know what Dr. Westcott reviewed.

[00:39:57] And it seems like she did review an awful lot with all the video and audio.

[00:40:01] But there almost seemed to be some gaps in what she was talking about that I found interesting, given what Diener sort of revealed on her cross.

[00:40:11] Yeah, I share Diener's curiosity about how much material Dr. Westcott was given.

[00:40:17] Then Diener started talking about dependent personality disorder.

[00:40:20] And she made some interesting points, one of which is if you have this situation where you're dependent on another person, it tends to be a person you really, really highly trust.

[00:40:31] And that made me think, of course, of the fact that if Richard Allen is in this dependent personality disorder with his wife and his mother and he highly trusts both of them, those are the people to whom he confessed.

[00:40:45] Yes.

[00:40:46] And then I would also say, Diener drilled down, though, I don't want to skip over this.

[00:40:51] Diener drilled down on you say that there is, quote, neither there's no evidence for deception or malingering on the test that Allen did.

[00:40:59] But note the words that on the test.

[00:41:02] So it like I would be curious if you see any malingering or feigning in conversations or like I mean, like the test is one thing.

[00:41:12] The test done in August 2023.

[00:41:16] But obviously the behavior is something ongoing.

[00:41:19] Well, I want to get back to what I was saying about the dependent personality disorder, because not only was he allegedly in this with his wife and his mother, whom he trusted and whom he gave confessions to.

[00:41:29] Apparently there were times when Diener says it sounded like he was transferring some of those issues to Dr. Walla.

[00:41:38] He told her that he trusted her and that she was, quote, like his wife.

[00:41:43] And if he did indeed transfer some of those feelings over to her and trusted her and have the dependent personality disorder with her, she also is someone to whom he confessed.

[00:41:57] He said, quote, you're like my wife telling me what I want to hear and, quote, please don't leave me, quote, quote.

[00:42:05] There's things I need to talk about.

[00:42:07] And then basically with people I trust.

[00:42:09] So, yeah.

[00:42:11] Yeah.

[00:42:11] And then Diener said, well, you know, you got to see all these reports after the fact.

[00:42:17] But why should your opinions matter more than the opinions of Dr. Martin, Dr. Walla, who had a lot of contact with him in real time when all of this was happening?

[00:42:28] And then Dr. Westcott said, well, you know, I not only looked at their reports, but I also looked a lot at the notes that were kept by the suicide companions who were monitoring him.

[00:42:41] And so Stacey Diener said, oh, so you give a lot of weight to the notes kept by the suicide companions?

[00:42:48] Oh, I noted that.

[00:42:48] Yeah.

[00:42:49] And Westcott said yes.

[00:42:51] And that is also interesting because, of course, he made a lot of confessions to the suicide companions.

[00:42:59] There was debate about brief psychosis.

[00:43:03] I shouldn't say debate, but clarification that I think brief psychosis kind of comes up in the DSM-IV, whereas we're now in the DSM-V, which was introduced.

[00:43:13] Westcott bought around 2015.

[00:43:15] Westcott bought around 2015, and so now I think it's just psychosis.

[00:43:20] So the idea that he has brief psychosis, it's more of like he would have major depressive disorder with psychosis.

[00:43:28] I will say this.

[00:43:29] I thought this was kind of interesting.

[00:43:30] Kind of we were in an angle where we could see Richard Allen's facial expressions somewhat, and I noticed that he kept glowering at Diener when she was talking.

[00:43:40] I noticed that too.

[00:43:42] Yeah.

[00:43:43] I don't know if he, I don't, I don't know if I've ever seen him.

[00:43:47] I don't like, I don't know if I've seen him glower at one of the prosecutors that much, but this time I definitely noticed it.

[00:43:53] I may have just not seen it or maybe he doesn't do it.

[00:43:56] I don't know.

[00:43:57] But he looked very angry.

[00:44:02] They, they would talk about like disorganized speech and how that can be sign of psychosis where someone's kind of just jumping.

[00:44:10] Uh, Diener also brought up, uh, again, kind of returning to the topic of the fact that she only references, she only says she saw like 30 to 50 of Dr. Walla's reports.

[00:44:20] Uh, you know, it seems by, uh, I guess a coincidence that a number of the reports that she fails to mention in her reports are, are the reports.

[00:44:30] Let me say, let me try that again.

[00:44:32] You got this.

[00:44:32] So a number of the notes from Dr. Walla that Dr. Westcott fails to mention and discuss in Dr. Westcott's reports are reports that Dr. Walla made about confessions that Richard Allen made.

[00:44:46] So specifically Dr. Walla's reports from April 5th and May 3rd, and those get into detailed confessions.

[00:44:54] And what Diener is pointing out is that her report does not have much scrutiny or examination of those if they're mentioned at all, was my understanding.

[00:45:04] Obviously we don't have the report in front of us, so we can't like go and see like what was mentioned, but just sort of noting, um, noting that.

[00:45:14] And it almost sounded like at one point Westcott conceded a little bit, so quote, um, my job is to almost like she's more focused on looking for the breadth of the symptoms and the context of the symptoms than like whether or not his confessions are true.

[00:45:36] And so she's noting that, like as a professional, she's more concerned with the whole mental health context of this person.

[00:45:43] But really what kind of came out in this cross is that she's not somebody who's going to be able to evaluate necessarily.

[00:45:49] She did cast some doubt on Walla's, um, you know, kind of written confessions of what Richard Allen was saying.

[00:45:57] It was like these sound more coherent than some of the other things I was hearing, but it also sounds like she wasn't necessarily.

[00:46:02] It just, like, like almost like this sounds more like a coherent story, but some of the other things he was saying was a lot more random.

[00:46:09] So it was kind of, she was kind of throwing some doubt on that, but then Dina was throwing some doubt on how much she was really even grappling with those things.

[00:46:16] Are we ready to move on to jury questions?

[00:46:19] These jury questions were completely brutal for the defense.

[00:46:22] Let me tell you the first one.

[00:46:23] So we've heard, of course, that while Richard Allen was in his cell, he could hear other inmates yelling terrible things to him about how he should die or kill himself.

[00:46:35] And that Richard Allen was, uh, scared of this.

[00:46:39] And so the first juror question was, well, if Richard Allen had the common sense to fear for his safety, would he have the common sense to fake psychosis?

[00:46:49] She said that was a really good question.

[00:46:51] And, um, she felt that he was more scared in like March in the lead up to his psychotic episodes.

[00:46:58] But, um, but that predated some of his most extreme behavior.

[00:47:04] Next question.

[00:47:05] If someone has depression and anxiety as a child, could it cause them to commit crimes as an adult?

[00:47:14] And she basically indicated, um, it depends on the person.

[00:47:20] She said that in, and she felt that in Richard Allen's case, he was, um, more passive and subdued.

[00:47:29] Or at least that's what her assessment was.

[00:47:31] But, um, you know.

[00:47:33] Next question is, uh, Dr. Westcott had mentioned all these things she had watched and reviewed to prepare her report.

[00:47:42] And a juror wanted to know, did you watch the police interviews of Richard Allen?

[00:47:48] That's what I wanted to know.

[00:47:49] And she said no.

[00:47:51] Those police interviews show a different guy than what she was describing, in my opinion.

[00:47:57] Yes.

[00:47:58] A very different personality.

[00:48:00] And I just wonder, like, is that a mask that he would wear?

[00:48:04] And then maybe the anxiety and the depression and all that other stuff was kind of behind it.

[00:48:07] I can imagine that.

[00:48:08] I think a lot of people do.

[00:48:10] Uh, as somebody myself, I have pretty, I've generalized anxiety disorder.

[00:48:15] And, like, that's not necessarily what you're putting out to the world.

[00:48:19] And sometimes people are surprised that you might have that.

[00:48:22] But, um, so I'm not, that's not like a saying, oh, it's deceiving or anything.

[00:48:27] It's just like, you're not, you don't necessarily want to lead with all your, uh, with all your anxiety.

[00:48:32] Um, but it's, it's something to note because I feel like it would have been great if she'd been able to contextualize some of his behavior in that.

[00:48:41] Is, this is an extra question, is he diagnosed with major depression, with psychosis, or with a psychotic disorder?

[00:48:49] And she was clear, the, the, the former, um, the latter is something more like, um, schizophrenia, and this would be the former.

[00:49:00] Um.

[00:49:01] And then, uh, Stacey Diener asked a couple of questions, uh, essentially saying, so you're saying that these are episodes of psychosis instead of a, uh, lifelong thing?

[00:49:12] And she indicated that psychosis can ebb and flow, uh, with the depressions.

[00:49:19] Yes.

[00:49:20] People wanted to know, I think, about the objective tests.

[00:49:23] Um, and she, she said that those are very well accepted and they're even like cookbooks where you can, quote unquote cookbooks where you can almost look and see, this is a sign that somebody has this, or this is a sign that someone's malingering.

[00:49:35] Um, they talked about, um, were there medical records of his, this is a question from the jurors, were there medical records of Richard Allen's that had previous objective tests?

[00:49:45] And she said generally no, most of his symptoms were all like self-reported.

[00:49:50] He wasn't doing those in-depth cognitive tests.

[00:49:53] People wanted to know about delusions versus delirium.

[00:49:56] Delusions are like a false belief.

[00:49:58] So you might think, hey, I'm the president of the United States.

[00:50:01] Um.

[00:50:03] Whereas delirium is more of like, you don't have any idea who you are, where you are.

[00:50:09] Uh, you, she quoted, she described it as almost like being in a fun house.

[00:50:15] You're like up from down.

[00:50:16] You don't know.

[00:50:19] Um, there was a sidebar.

[00:50:21] And then a break and then another sidebar.

[00:50:26] Sidebar.

[00:50:27] Uh, a sidebar, of course, is when the attorneys and the judge, uh, talk about something that, uh, the gallery is not privy to.

[00:50:39] Us proletariat in the gallery.

[00:50:41] Left out in the cold.

[00:50:42] No, it's like they gotta, you know, they gotta talk about something and they don't want, don't want us to hear it.

[00:50:46] Don't want the jury to hear it.

[00:50:48] So the next witness was Mac Baker.

[00:50:50] This is the, uh, young man who works in Brad Rosey's office.

[00:50:55] And he presented some videos of Richard Allen the other day as he was being transported from his cell to other things.

[00:51:03] And so today he was, uh, presenting some videos of some of Richard Allen's activities inside his cell.

[00:51:09] And just like the other day, the monitor was arranged in such a way that the members of the gallery and the press included could not see what these videos showed.

[00:51:23] So we saw the back of a TV and you could see Brad Rosey sitting by it.

[00:51:29] And every once in a while he was saying, I'm advancing this two minutes at the redotted timestamp.

[00:51:34] And there was no sound.

[00:51:36] No sound.

[00:51:36] I, this time we could see the jurors a lot better.

[00:51:39] What did you think?

[00:51:40] Of them.

[00:51:42] Yeah.

[00:51:42] It's hard to say.

[00:51:43] I felt like I saw people looking solemn and stony faced.

[00:51:48] I didn't see a lot of reactiveness.

[00:51:51] Nobody looked happy.

[00:51:53] Um, it was just kind of solemn, stony face, hard to read, hard to read what they're seeing in that.

[00:52:01] If they're, oh my gosh, this guy's being tortured or if they're saying this guy has a lot of issues and maybe, maybe that makes sense given what happens.

[00:52:11] So I, I, it's really, you can't really, um, project anything onto them.

[00:52:16] They just look vaguely disturbed, but not as reactive as I've seen them at times.

[00:52:24] Um, so Baker talked about how he like edited this down from like many, many hours and, um, they sped it up fast enough not to corrupt the video.

[00:52:36] Him and this guy named Steve Bauer, who we kept mentioning, uh, they did not want to corrupt the video, but they also wanted it to go faster.

[00:52:44] And, um, this was all introduced, uh, despite the, uh, state's objection.

[00:52:50] So this is a situation where it's being let in by Judge Francis Gull over Nicholas McClellan's objection.

[00:52:56] Um, and, uh, I think the first one was April 12th, two to 7 PM.

[00:53:04] Does that sound right?

[00:53:04] Yeah.

[00:53:05] And then the one after that, let's see, it was, I think it was in May, May 25th, 2023, 8 AM to 10 AM.

[00:53:14] So the first one was an hour and 12 minutes.

[00:53:17] And the second one was, um, less than that.

[00:53:22] Although I don't, do you, did you have the second one written down?

[00:53:25] I don't.

[00:53:26] Do you want to talk about the cross-examination?

[00:53:28] And also they sped it up.

[00:53:29] So it didn't like we weren't sitting there that long, but there was a lot of jumping around.

[00:53:33] The cross-examination got really heated.

[00:53:36] I mean, is that fair to say?

[00:53:38] That is extraordinarily fair to say.

[00:53:40] Oh man.

[00:53:41] I was like, whoa.

[00:53:42] Okay.

[00:53:42] I was not expecting this one to be the one where things start popping off.

[00:53:46] Um, so yeah.

[00:53:50] Why don't you talk about it?

[00:53:52] Well, Nick McClellan was like, you know, you say you watched all these hundreds of hours.

[00:53:57] You chose 15 clips the other day.

[00:53:59] You chose two clips today.

[00:54:01] Did you just choose the ones that you thought would be most likely to curry sympathy with the jury?

[00:54:07] And, uh, Baker said, uh, I just wanted to show different aspects.

[00:54:11] And, uh.

[00:54:12] Of Rick's life in prison.

[00:54:13] And, uh, McClellan kind of hammered down.

[00:54:16] You, you want to create sympathy.

[00:54:19] You want to curry sympathy for Mr. Allen with the jury.

[00:54:22] Uh, you did this to try to show the jury that Richard Allen is the victim in this case.

[00:54:28] And Baker said, I don't think I'm trying to victimize him.

[00:54:32] He was getting heated back.

[00:54:33] And McClellan said, Richard Allen is not the victim in this case, is he?

[00:54:37] And Baker said, no.

[00:54:39] Rosie's objecting relevance.

[00:54:41] Uh, McClellan is saying thing.

[00:54:43] Why did you think these two incel videos today are important?

[00:54:47] And Baker was like, well, they show him banging his head and eating, eating feces.

[00:54:53] And McClellan said, and you think that's important for the jury to say, to see?

[00:54:58] So, one thing Baker.

[00:54:59] They were raising their voices at each other.

[00:55:01] Baker was getting flustered and saying, you know, you could have not objected, basically.

[00:55:05] Like, you could have just let us let in all of the stuff, including, I guess, a lot of boring cell video of him doing nothing.

[00:55:12] Um, I felt like, you know, it must be, it must be like kind of nerve wracking or flustering to kind of be, you know, kind of like, uh, talking too intensely on the stand, I guess.

[00:55:25] But he seemed to kind of, it kind of got to him.

[00:55:28] And I think he started kind of getting flustered.

[00:55:31] Is that fair to say?

[00:55:32] Yes.

[00:55:33] He got flustered.

[00:55:34] And again, he is a young guy.

[00:55:36] He's a very young guy.

[00:55:36] He's just out of college.

[00:55:37] So, I mean, like, I don't blame him.

[00:55:39] Um, it's just, it's just, that was something to note.

[00:55:41] And it kind of, it kind of, I feel like ended up like with the impression that they're just kind of cherry picking a bunch of stuff in order to curry favor and make him look like the victim.

[00:55:52] I guess that's kind of.

[00:55:53] Because again, basically.

[00:55:54] Because that's what it kind of.

[00:55:55] Yeah.

[00:55:56] Yeah.

[00:55:56] Yeah.

[00:55:56] So, I mean, I, but, I mean, but he's saying, no, we just want to give everyone a kind of a glimpse of his time in prison.

[00:56:04] And I think Rosie was like, did the whole thing about the truth, was that during the jury questions or was that at the end of this?

[00:56:13] What do you mean truth?

[00:56:14] Remember at one point, like, Brad Rose is like, why do we pick these videos?

[00:56:17] And like, was it to show the truth?

[00:56:18] And Max Baker's like, yeah.

[00:56:20] It's like, okay.

[00:56:21] Yeah.

[00:56:21] One of the jury questions was, uh, a juror said, since you work for the defense, did the defense team prompt you to choose the worst videos?

[00:56:29] Oof.

[00:56:30] And Baker said, oh, they trusted me to use my discretion.

[00:56:34] Yeah.

[00:56:34] And then Brad Rose, you know, basically we, we gave you, uh, we gave you discretion.

[00:56:39] And then, uh, McClellan was like, um, did you kind of compare it and contrast with the court phone calls?

[00:56:45] Um, or that were any of these videos from the days where, you know, in times when he was giving confessions, Baker claimed to not know.

[00:56:54] And then, um, what were the other ones?

[00:56:58] That was a, that, the, the questions I really don't feel were good for the defense today.

[00:57:02] Um, but yeah, at one point I know Rosie asked him like, why did we pick these?

[00:57:07] And it was like, to show the truth.

[00:57:08] And I was like, I just, I don't think these defense, I don't think these, uh, jury questions have been good for them recently in general.

[00:57:16] I would, uh, agree with that completely.

[00:57:19] So then afternoon, I guess, um, we, so this is where the Allen's family came in and it's a, it's a troubling subject.

[00:57:29] So I just want to give an extra content warning.

[00:57:31] It gets into sort of molestation and.

[00:57:34] Before we get into that.

[00:57:35] Family abuse.

[00:57:36] Okay.

[00:57:36] There was a talk of, uh, of a police report or something coming in and, uh, the judge, Judge Gull said, oh, we can't really bring this in because it's totem pole hearsay.

[00:57:50] The heck is that?

[00:57:51] And I was sitting next to, uh, an attorney and she leaned over to me and said, what is totem pole hearsay?

[00:57:59] And I said, I was going to ask you the same thing.

[00:58:00] So apparently, uh, and I'm Googling this, uh, and totem pole hearsay is multiple hearsay.

[00:58:13] So if, if there would be, if it would be hearsay for me to go on the stand and say, oh, Anya told me she was going to steal cereal.

[00:58:25] It would, I guess be hearsay within hearsay.

[00:58:27] If I said, oh, I talked to, uh, Anya's friend, Susie.

[00:58:33] And Susie told me that she said that she thought Anya had said it.

[00:58:37] Did Susan Hendricks snitch on me?

[00:58:39] Is that what you're saying right now?

[00:58:42] Not happy about this.

[00:58:44] Um, no.

[00:58:44] Yeah.

[00:58:44] That's.

[00:58:44] And I'm just explaining, I'm just looking this up in real time.

[00:58:46] So if I got that wrong, I apologize.

[00:58:48] Then you're just spreading misinformation.

[00:58:50] Because I, I have in my notes, look this up before recording.

[00:58:53] That didn't happen.

[00:58:54] And I could have just artfully just skipped over it because you were ready to do that.

[00:58:58] And I said, no, Anya, let me embarrass myself.

[00:59:01] That's what you're saying to me every day.

[00:59:03] Yeah.

[00:59:05] So, um, yeah, so this next part's, you know, disturbing, but I'll be a brief, nothing graphic, but just, you know, getting into things like molestation and family abuse and stuff like that.

[00:59:13] So Jennifer Oje was handling this direct examination.

[00:59:17] She called Jamie Jones, uh, a woman who is Richard Allen's half sister to the stand.

[00:59:24] Jamie clarified that she and Allen share a mother, Janice, and, uh, they have different fathers.

[00:59:30] So I believe Jamie is the daughter of Marvin Allen, who's Janice's husband.

[00:59:35] Richard is five years older than his wife, uh, Jamie, Richard Allen.

[00:59:39] He left home at 18 to go into the military.

[00:59:42] Got married.

[00:59:42] His sister, Jamie, not his wife, Jamie.

[00:59:44] I think you just said.

[00:59:45] Okay, go ahead.

[00:59:47] What did I say?

[00:59:47] I thought you said his wife, Jamie.

[00:59:49] I may have misheard you.

[00:59:50] I apologize.

[00:59:50] He is five years older than his sister, Jamie.

[00:59:54] Uh, they lived together as kids.

[00:59:55] He left home at the age of 18 to join the military shortly after his return.

[01:00:00] He got married and she says he never molested her or touched her sexually.

[01:00:06] She says that she loves her brother, Richard Allen, but she would not lie for him.

[01:00:12] Uh, the prosecution was handled by?

[01:00:15] Uh, James Luttrell.

[01:00:17] And he asked her about growing up with Richard Allen.

[01:00:21] And he said, oh, there were lots of neighborhood children in Mexico, Indiana, where they grew up together.

[01:00:26] And she agreed with that.

[01:00:28] And he said, did they have names like Chris?

[01:00:30] And she said, yes.

[01:00:31] And then, uh, the other side, uh, Ms. O'Shea objected and that ended the cross-examination and that ended this witness's time on the stand.

[01:00:40] Why did Luttrell mention Chris?

[01:00:42] Why do you think?

[01:00:43] No, I mean, I'm assuming you know.

[01:00:45] I'm setting you up to answer that.

[01:00:48] Was Chris one of the names mentioned in the confessions?

[01:00:51] Chris and Kevin were people that, um, Alan mentioned by name as having molested.

[01:00:58] Um, so, yeah.

[01:01:01] So, I mean, it seems that Jamie confirmed that, uh, they knew a Chris, but whether, what the, what the, you know, what the truth is there is obviously not clear.

[01:01:12] So next up was Brittany Zapanta, who is the daughter of Kathy Allen and Richard Allen.

[01:01:21] Uh, I was really struck by how much she resembled her mother.

[01:01:24] Yeah, definitely.

[01:01:24] And, um, she's, you know.

[01:01:28] She obviously grew up in the house with Richard and Kathy Allen.

[01:01:33] Uh, she went to Ball State for a year when she was 18 and went to Indianapolis and then she moved out of the house for good back in 2015.

[01:01:42] She says she was never molested by her father, Richard Allen.

[01:01:46] She says she loves him but would not lie for him.

[01:01:48] I noticed, um, I, I didn't have as, quite a, as good an angle on Allen, but he seemed to be smiling a lot when she was on the stand, at least for a time.

[01:02:00] Yeah.

[01:02:00] Like very much smiling deeply.

[01:02:02] Is that kind of what you saw?

[01:02:04] This was the part, part of the, this was after lunch and all the confusion at lunch had Anya and I ended up actually sitting separately.

[01:02:13] You're actually sitting as far away apart as you can.

[01:02:16] Yeah, I was sitting on one corner of the courtroom.

[01:02:18] She was on the other.

[01:02:19] This is why, as I mentioned, I was sitting next to, uh, an attorney, which Anya certainly is not.

[01:02:24] And she was sitting on the far side.

[01:02:26] So I wasn't really in a position to see, uh, Richard Allen.

[01:02:30] Well, I, I felt.

[01:02:31] I had a great view of the jurors.

[01:02:32] I could be totally wrong, but I, I thought he was smiling, um, at times.

[01:02:36] And I think at one point I saw him mouthing, it's okay to her.

[01:02:40] She was very, very upset.

[01:02:42] She was doing a good job of remaining calm and not, um, you know, like she was, I'm not saying she was freaking out.

[01:02:50] It's just more like you could tell she was fighting back tears.

[01:02:52] This was obviously a very upsetting experience for her.

[01:02:56] And I'm sure that was more so, um, she kind of ended up being on the stand for a lot longer than her aunt Jamie.

[01:03:02] And, um, you know, with, with this, uh, yeah, he was, he, he seemed to be reactive to his, his child on the stand.

[01:03:11] Um, uh, but it went on from there.

[01:03:16] Uh, cross-examination done by James Luttrell.

[01:03:20] Luttrell.

[01:03:21] Luttrell?

[01:03:22] Yes.

[01:03:23] And he asked, did you and your father go to the trails often?

[01:03:28] Objection outside the scope of direct examination.

[01:03:31] Sustained by Judge Gull.

[01:03:33] Did you and your father go to the Monon High Bridge?

[01:03:36] Objection outside the scope of direct examination.

[01:03:39] Sustained by Judge Gull.

[01:03:41] Uh, did your father's appearance change from when you left for Ball State until 2022?

[01:03:47] Or did it remain the same?

[01:03:49] She said that it remained the same.

[01:03:51] Uh, he showed her some four pictures of, uh, Richard Allen asking, is this how he looked after you left college up till 2022?

[01:04:01] Uh, there was a sidebar after which Jennifer Auger established that we don't have the dates that those particular pictures of Richard Allen were taken.

[01:04:11] And therefore, it, you can't really say if this represented how he looked in February of 2017.

[01:04:19] Um, but, but, uh, Luttrell went on to be able to ask her about a number of those pictures, right?

[01:04:26] Yeah.

[01:04:28] And, um, he asked if this is how he appeared in February 2017 for four images in particular.

[01:04:34] Yeah.

[01:04:35] And she said yes to all of them.

[01:04:37] That is how he appeared in 2017.

[01:04:40] And, um, I believe, um, there was one point where, uh, OJ was, was objecting to things being beyond the scope while Luttrell was going.

[01:04:53] And, and this happened a couple of times with Gull today where she got very irritated in saying, like, I don't know, like, I can't rule on your objection or sustain an objection if I don't have what you're talking about in front of me.

[01:05:05] Because the objections were about specific pieces of evidence which the lawyers had temporarily neglected to share with the judge.

[01:05:14] And, of course, any good judge does not make any decisions about evidentiary things unless she knows what the evidence is.

[01:05:22] And Judge Gull pointed that out to the attorneys many times today.

[01:05:25] Yeah, many times.

[01:05:26] Luttrell published the photos to the jury.

[01:05:28] So now they have what his daughter says he looked like in February 2017.

[01:05:33] That seemed like something that the prosecution wanted to get in earlier by saying, like, we got these off his phone from an extraction.

[01:05:41] I don't know if they're the same images, but, like, they were like, here's pictures of him from February 17.

[01:05:45] And then, like, the judge was like, no, those can't come in.

[01:05:48] So it seems like they got in images of what he would have looked like back then.

[01:05:53] Anya, you said they published it to the jury.

[01:05:55] What does, what does that mean?

[01:05:57] I get the gate.

[01:05:58] They gave it to the jury after having it admitted.

[01:06:00] Each of the jurors has, like, a really big, almost, which is like an accordion folder.

[01:06:07] Yeah.

[01:06:08] Where they are given copies of so many reports and exhibits and stuff.

[01:06:13] They put them all in these accordion folders.

[01:06:16] And so when we say something is published to the jury, it basically means they get a copy of it.

[01:06:22] Yeah.

[01:06:23] Juror questions.

[01:06:24] Brutal.

[01:06:25] Juror.

[01:06:26] Okay.

[01:06:26] Here's, remember what Luttrell asked Brittany that then was shot down by Gull.

[01:06:32] Which is, did you visit the Monon High Bridge with your father?

[01:06:35] Of course, what is the first question from the jury?

[01:06:37] Did you visit the Monon High Bridge in your teens?

[01:06:40] And the answer was yes.

[01:06:42] And Luttrell said, well, did you cross that bridge?

[01:06:46] And she said yes.

[01:06:48] With your dad?

[01:06:49] Yes.

[01:06:49] Yes.

[01:06:49] Were you scared?

[01:06:50] And she said, I was scared of the bridge.

[01:06:55] Indicating not her dad.

[01:06:56] And she said, we crossed it maybe once or twice in her life.

[01:07:01] Yeah.

[01:07:02] So the jury there, what I saw as one of the jurors was doing, was basically saying, the prosecutor asked that question.

[01:07:09] I want to know the answer to that question.

[01:07:12] And so they went for it.

[01:07:13] That would be concerning to me if I were on the defense.

[01:07:18] Yeah.

[01:07:20] Next witness presented for the defense by Andrew Baldwin.

[01:07:25] It is Shelby Hicks.

[01:07:27] Yeah, we're back to the 2019 Reddit posts.

[01:07:30] Oh, and I guess this blows up what I said earlier because they also asked what her age is.

[01:07:35] She's 30 years old.

[01:07:36] She now lives in the – she's originally from the nearby town of Monticello, Indiana.

[01:07:44] It looks like Monticello, but it's pronounced Monticello.

[01:07:47] It's a lovely little community.

[01:07:49] So back in February 13th of 2017, she had a car.

[01:07:54] She took it to get fixed in Lafayette.

[01:07:56] And after she got it, it was a pretty good day out.

[01:08:01] So she and her boyfriend –

[01:08:03] Her then-boyfriend.

[01:08:05] She and her then-boyfriend, Daniel Pearson, decided to go together to the trails.

[01:08:11] If you've been following this case for a long time, you might recognize the name Daniel Pearson.

[01:08:17] He is someone who – there was a large contingent of people online on some of the social media sites who, with very little reason that I could discern, decided at some point that he was the killer.

[01:08:33] And they publicly accused him of that.

[01:08:36] And it was one of the big theories online for a while.

[01:08:39] And again, it was totally, totally baseless.

[01:08:41] Everyone owes him an apology because it turns out, according to Hicks today, he was the one who immediately was like, we were on the bridge that day.

[01:08:49] We need to go to law enforcement now and tell them what we saw or didn't see and answer questions.

[01:08:54] We're getting just a little bit ahead of ourselves.

[01:08:55] But I just want to note that this young man did the right thing and was basically then crucified for it online.

[01:09:00] So she and Daniel Pearson arrive at the trails around 2.30-ish.

[01:09:07] They park at what's called the Muir's lot.

[01:09:12] They start walking towards the highway and then turn around and walk towards the Monon High Bridge.

[01:09:19] As they walk, they see an older man with a camera.

[01:09:24] We know that's Dave McCain.

[01:09:25] Dave McCain, yeah.

[01:09:26] He actually testified the other day.

[01:09:28] She sees a couple of other kids.

[01:09:30] She also sees two friends from school.

[01:09:33] That's Shelby Duncan and Cheyenne Mill, although I think Mill had a different last name.

[01:09:40] No one, just the kids thing.

[01:09:42] We don't know who the kids are.

[01:09:43] That never comes up.

[01:09:45] They never clarify who the other kids that she saw are.

[01:09:49] Is that fair to say?

[01:09:50] That's fair to say.

[01:09:51] Some people outside were speculating that those kids were actually Abby and Libby.

[01:09:56] But I think if she saw Abby and Libby, the defense would have pointed that out.

[01:10:01] Yeah, it's not Abby and Libby.

[01:10:02] Also, by everyone's contention, Abby and Libby are either being abducted in a car and driven away.

[01:10:09] Or have already been murdered.

[01:10:10] Or have already been murdered.

[01:10:11] So she runs into her friends, Cheyenne and another person named Shelby.

[01:10:19] Cheyenne has already testified.

[01:10:22] They go and hang out on the bridge.

[01:10:24] And after spending about 30 minutes on the bridge, go home.

[01:10:30] The next day, Daniel Pearson says, oh, we should go to law enforcement and tell them that we were there.

[01:10:37] And they do.

[01:10:39] Law enforcement does not extract her phone.

[01:10:41] They only talked to her twice.

[01:10:43] But it seems like she was there.

[01:10:46] Whether you believe the defense theory that the girls were kidnapped and transported elsewhere or whether you believe the state's theory that the girls were already murdered.

[01:10:57] Shelby is there after that's happened.

[01:10:59] Well after that's happened.

[01:11:00] Well after it's happened.

[01:11:01] So it's not surprising that there's not a lot of interest on the part of law enforcement to say, oh, let's extract her phone.

[01:11:07] Let's talk to her hundreds of times.

[01:11:10] She's a fine young woman.

[01:11:13] She and Daniel Pearson did the absolute correct thing to come forward.

[01:11:18] But they did not really have anything relevant.

[01:11:22] No, they did not.

[01:11:23] I mean like that's the thing.

[01:11:24] And I commend them for doing the right thing.

[01:11:26] Good for them.

[01:11:26] They're like young people who wanted to do the right thing and help out.

[01:11:30] And that's wonderful.

[01:11:31] And the fact that they got any nonsense online just disgusts me.

[01:11:36] But the thing is like law enforcement can't be running around doing, you know, like extracting phones of young women who happen to be there like well after this is all over judging from the evidence.

[01:11:49] Like that's just not it's not a reasonable expectation.

[01:11:53] And they didn't see anything.

[01:11:55] Even Shelby herself on the stand indicated that she only recalled the day rather vaguely.

[01:12:00] So I feel like this is just I think this is the defense attempting to confuse the jury.

[01:12:06] And I don't find it.

[01:12:07] I don't find it compelling as someone who's followed this case for a long time.

[01:12:12] Well, one thing I often think about, I think I mentioned this on the program, is after I hear a defense witness, I ask myself if everything this defense witness says is true.

[01:12:23] Does it alter anyone's understanding of what may or may not have happened on the bridge on February 13th?

[01:12:30] And if everything Shelby says is true, it doesn't change anything the state put forward about what happened that day.

[01:12:36] And even if anything, everything Dr.

[01:12:38] Westcott says is true.

[01:12:40] That doesn't really change anyone's understanding of what the state contends happened that day.

[01:12:45] I'm hoping at some point the defense puts forward a witness who actually talks either about or who talks about the events of that day and tries to build a case or rather tries to create reasonable doubt that Richard Allen does what the state alleges he did.

[01:13:02] I agree. That's what I think necessary at this point for the defense to do.

[01:13:06] And a lot of this just feels like, I don't know, like, like, I don't I mean, why would they why would a defense team do this?

[01:13:14] But like getting the getting the YouTubers excited of, oh, Daniel Pearson, I remember that name.

[01:13:19] Oh, and it's like, you know, like, why?

[01:13:23] Like, who's your audience?

[01:13:24] Is it the jury or is it like the online sphere?

[01:13:27] I just don't understand it.

[01:13:28] There was one question, one juror question, and it was again telling, in my opinion, was the man with the camera old?

[01:13:36] Yes.

[01:13:39] So poor Dave McCain.

[01:13:41] Oh, yeah.

[01:13:43] He's he's he's seasoned.

[01:13:46] He's not old.

[01:13:47] He's in the prime of his life.

[01:13:48] He seemed great.

[01:13:49] And I like that he was into all the historical stuff.

[01:13:51] But it's like, you know, it was the goal for the jury to be like, maybe the guy with the camera did it.

[01:13:56] Like, no, we already heard from it.

[01:13:58] It's Dave McCain.

[01:14:00] I have actually another juror question.

[01:14:02] Oh, did you arrive at the moon on high bridge around 3 p.m.?

[01:14:05] And she said, maybe.

[01:14:06] And then Andrew Baldwin could have been later.

[01:14:08] What about earlier?

[01:14:10] Yes, maybe like.

[01:14:12] But the thing is, Cheyenne's experience kind of does date all this later.

[01:14:17] It forces the timeline back.

[01:14:19] The timeline's not working in the defense's favor at this point, in my opinion.

[01:14:23] And so this didn't add anything.

[01:14:26] You're right.

[01:14:26] There were two.

[01:14:27] I had that down, too.

[01:14:28] But it's just I don't know it.

[01:14:31] OK, I guess next is Steve Mullen again done by Andrew Baldwin.

[01:14:36] You take the lead on this one.

[01:14:39] It seems like bring in Mullen and then just jump around a different stuff.

[01:14:42] So I guess they tried to do something similar to Holman recently where it seemed like that McClellan got wind of it and like preemptively shut it down by asking a bunch of very strange questions at the start that then made more sense later.

[01:15:02] Where, you know, they got Melissa Oberg, the firearms examiner, to say, oh, I was talking about like paternity tests and results and percentages with a bunch of investigators.

[01:15:13] And, you know, this is what I said.

[01:15:15] And then suddenly McClellan's asking Holman about that and Holman saying, yes, we had that conversation.

[01:15:21] I misunderstood it and repeated my misunderstanding in a deposition.

[01:15:26] And I think the goal with that was to prevent Baldwin from basically being like, aha, we've got you, you liar.

[01:15:32] So I think I think that that's what they sort of did to Mullen today.

[01:15:37] Does that feel fair?

[01:15:39] Yeah, that feels that feels fair.

[01:15:40] So what happened was they're like, remember in direct.

[01:15:43] Well, we'll get to that.

[01:15:44] But that's going to be one of the things.

[01:15:46] Remember in direct examination with McClellan, when you looked at the Ford focuses for Ford foci?

[01:15:52] I don't know.

[01:15:54] And different types and like, weren't there similar body types or some?

[01:15:58] And Mullen indicated from 2011 to 2018, they can look similar frame wise.

[01:16:02] And then they submitted some BMV thing saying, here's all the ones registered in Cass, White, Carroll, Howard and Tipton counties.

[01:16:15] 2011 to 2017 models, similar bodied.

[01:16:20] And like, you know, there's a there's a bunch more that look similar, I guess, was kind of it.

[01:16:24] But then it all kind of went to hell because McClellan objected because it wasn't certified.

[01:16:31] And then the judge was like, wait, this isn't certified.

[01:16:34] There's no certification.

[01:16:35] And then Baldwin was confused.

[01:16:38] I was confused.

[01:16:39] I didn't know what was going on.

[01:16:40] Did you follow any of that?

[01:16:45] Basically, a document to be admitted into evidence has to be certified, which is basically the agency or whoever is saying this is a fair and accurate copy.

[01:16:55] Because I'm not accusing the defense in this case of doing this.

[01:16:58] But in theory, you know, I could go online or I could go to my computer and I could dummy up a fake list of anything and take it to the court and say, hey, look at this.

[01:17:09] And so that's why you want things to be certified by, you know, responsible people who say, yes, this is a true and accurate report.

[01:17:17] Does that make sense?

[01:17:19] Yes.

[01:17:19] Next, we jumped to the the the interviews that got erased that were done in 2017.

[01:17:27] And there was a long discussion of like, you know, did you catalog?

[01:17:35] Did you do a log of all the people whose injuries got lost?

[01:17:40] And what Mullen said was, quote, we attempted to catalog the names of persons who were interviewed and, quote, obviously attempted being a keyword there because, you know, if they forgot someone something you want to cover your bases, I guess.

[01:17:51] And then Baldwin brought up on March 18th in a hearing and he kind of like smacked a paper on a desk.

[01:18:00] Was that did I am like, was I hallucinating that at that point or did that happen?

[01:18:04] That happened.

[01:18:05] That happened.

[01:18:05] And then he actually apologized to Judge Gull.

[01:18:07] It was very it was a little bit theatrical for sure.

[01:18:11] I don't know how effective because I just again at this point, I maybe my seat was bad, but I was just like, what is going on?

[01:18:18] And then McClellan asked for a copy.

[01:18:21] Baldwin gave him one.

[01:18:22] And then Baldwin said that Steve Mullen basically lied to the court back in March.

[01:18:27] And.

[01:18:29] And.

[01:18:30] And basically what Mullen had said then, I guess, was that we didn't have logs of people who were.

[01:18:38] Who we tried, you know, we thought we interviewed, but then lost.

[01:18:41] And then Mullen on the stand said clarified and said there are logs like I've just since found them.

[01:18:49] And now we know that there are some logs that we did.

[01:18:53] And so.

[01:18:55] What a Perry Mason moment.

[01:18:59] Wow.

[01:19:03] I'm sorry.

[01:19:04] Like what?

[01:19:05] This is minutia.

[01:19:08] One guy forgetting about a log.

[01:19:10] That's like.

[01:19:11] Oh, my gosh.

[01:19:13] It's worth getting to the bottom of.

[01:19:15] It's worth getting to the bottom of.

[01:19:16] But I think it would have been better to just handle it by the book instead of trying to like slam papers and act like.

[01:19:22] Suddenly, like, oh, you know, like I just like felt like it was like this is calm down.

[01:19:28] You know what I mean?

[01:19:29] This is I don't know.

[01:19:30] What am I am I underplaying it too much?

[01:19:32] Did you think it was a bigger deal than I did?

[01:19:35] You seem to be thinking like it's absolutely meaningless.

[01:19:39] I don't think it's meaningless.

[01:19:40] I just think when you put like a big flourish on something that kind of isn't that big of a deal, it looks more meaningless than it should.

[01:19:46] Yeah, I would agree with that.

[01:19:48] And I had more sympathy for this issue than what came next because he was then sort of talking about how he said that Brian Harshman said that there was no social media reference to a white man in connection with the Delphi murders.

[01:20:04] Quick review.

[01:20:06] Richard Allen says he was interrupted in the course of his crimes against Abby and Libby by the appearance of a white van driving on this access road.

[01:20:18] And there is a man named Brad Weber who we'll hear more from in a moment who says he was the driver of that van just going home.

[01:20:25] And the fact that Brad Weber was driving on that access road during the time of the murder is a fact that would be known only to the killer.

[01:20:36] And so it becomes very important for the defense to try to debunk that claim.

[01:20:42] And one way they're trying to do that is by trying to suggest the stories about white vans in connection with the Delphi murders were out there already and people were talking about them.

[01:20:57] And perhaps Dr. Wallach, who we know was interested in social media in connection with this case, may have seen some of these references to a white van and told Richard Allen, hey, why don't you put a white van in your story?

[01:21:09] That's basically what they're trying to do.

[01:21:12] And so they were trying to suggest, well, there were social media references to a white van.

[01:21:18] Therefore, for all we know, Dr. Wallach had him put that detail in.

[01:21:24] But the problem for me is everything under the sun has been mentioned in connection with the Delphi case.

[01:21:37] I had a woman we had a woman talk to us for like an hour about how there were dolls and the trees and all this stuff.

[01:21:44] And I still want to I still want to call her back up and say, what the hell is wrong with you?

[01:21:48] But also, yeah, I mean, everything.

[01:21:51] Everything has been mentioned in connection with it.

[01:21:54] Anya mentioned earlier Daniel Pearson, an innocent young man.

[01:21:58] He is accused.

[01:22:00] Anya and I have been accused seriously of being Odinists who are trying to cover up the crime.

[01:22:05] Don't mention that. We need to edit that out then.

[01:22:08] Yeah.

[01:22:08] So I would be less concerned by a white van being mentioned in social media.

[01:22:14] What I would want to see, I'd want to see this white van being mentioned in a police report that is given to Richard Allen by his attorneys as part of discovery.

[01:22:23] Yes.

[01:22:23] Or I would be interested in seeing a reference to a white van on social media that describes, oh, hey, everybody, a white van drove by at the time of the murders, therefore helping to trigger the crime.

[01:22:36] And there is no indication that anywhere on social media anyone has suggested that a white van drove by as the crime was being committed.

[01:22:45] So therefore, any other mention of a white van in connection with this crime is a lot less compelling to me.

[01:22:54] For instance, later on, Baldwin says, oh, you know, I found a post on social media which said there was a white van miles away at a bus stop offering candy to kids.

[01:23:07] And it's like, what relevance does that have to what happened in Delphi?

[01:23:14] What was embarrassing about that is that he said it in a really dramatic way and then somebody asked him to repeat it and they kind of like said it in a more halting.

[01:23:21] Oh, yeah, there's a cargo van and candy at a bus stop.

[01:23:25] It's like, I mean, embarrassing.

[01:23:26] And the thing is, this wasn't even in a police report.

[01:23:29] This is just something that was mentioned on social media.

[01:23:31] So we have no idea, first of all, that it even happened.

[01:23:36] It could just be someone's imagination.

[01:23:39] People lie on the Internet, believe it or not.

[01:23:40] And even if it did happen, we don't know that it happened on the day of the murders and we don't know that it had any connection whatsoever to the murders.

[01:23:49] It also sounds a little bit different, frankly, from the murders.

[01:23:52] Yeah.

[01:23:52] Even if there was somebody in a van offering candy to children at a bus stop miles and miles away from Delphi, what does that have to do with Brad Weber driving home from work in a van during the time of the crime?

[01:24:05] You know, maybe that day somebody got shot in Indianapolis.

[01:24:08] Maybe that's related.

[01:24:09] I mean, like, at what point?

[01:24:10] Like, it's just it's like, I don't know, like, again, it's like the friggin Reddit posts of 2019, the greatest hits.

[01:24:18] And I'm just what are they doing?

[01:24:21] So I found that angle less compelling.

[01:24:25] But it is if they want to create reasonable doubt, they really need to knock down Brad Weber and the white van story.

[01:24:34] I appreciated at least they were going to try to do that there.

[01:24:39] Yes.

[01:24:39] Because it's like that is the relevant issue that you should be focusing on.

[01:24:43] And so should we move on to the next witness who, in fact, is Brad Weber?

[01:24:46] Yeah.

[01:24:47] Well, I think one thing the jury asked was, why would anyone discuss the van prior to Rich Allen's confessions?

[01:24:55] And, you know, basically.

[01:24:57] I was like, I don't even know what these social media posts are.

[01:25:01] So, yeah, let's go to Brad Weber.

[01:25:06] So Brad Weber comes in.

[01:25:09] And Andy Baldwin was like, oh, you were pretty upset with me the other day.

[01:25:12] And Brad Weber said, well, I was upset because you tried to tell me what I did when I got off work.

[01:25:17] And basically what you said wasn't true.

[01:25:20] I just went right home.

[01:25:21] And then he said, well, what about what you told about FBI agent Poole and Christopher Gautier?

[01:25:28] And Brad Weber said, quote, who are those guys?

[01:25:32] And it came out that in the days after the murders, it sounds like Weber was interviewed by law enforcement, different law enforcement officers, multiple times generating multiple different reports.

[01:25:43] And so it seems like that one was just one of many where he was being asked about that day.

[01:25:53] Yeah.

[01:25:53] And Baldwin at one point said, you told those officers that you stopped on the way home to do some work on your ATM machines.

[01:26:01] And Weber said, I don't recall saying that.

[01:26:06] They asked him, Baldwin asked him, you know, you went to Arizona for a week before the murders.

[01:26:13] And Weber said, no, I didn't go for a week.

[01:26:16] I went for a three day trip.

[01:26:18] Got back Sunday.

[01:26:21] Right.

[01:26:21] Yeah.

[01:26:22] And that comes up later with the ATMs.

[01:26:25] The whole trip thing was about the ATMs.

[01:26:28] Because the whole trip was like you were gone for that long.

[01:26:30] Maybe you needed to come back and service the ATMs.

[01:26:33] Right.

[01:26:35] Excuse me.

[01:26:35] Oh, my God.

[01:26:36] Are you OK?

[01:26:37] Yeah, I'm fine.

[01:26:38] Aw.

[01:26:40] Andy Baldwin got into so much detail about the ATM business with this man that I feel Anya and I could leave podcasting and go into the ATM business at this point.

[01:26:55] I was thinking that.

[01:26:55] I was like, we should get an ATM.

[01:26:57] He went into so much detail about where the ATMs were located in this.

[01:27:01] And McClellan was frequently objecting.

[01:27:04] How is this relevant?

[01:27:05] We went into like a how to it was like an like kind of like one of those like YouTube things like start your own business.

[01:27:11] But about ATMs.

[01:27:12] But about ATMs with Brad Webber.

[01:27:13] So we had ATMs throughout central Indiana, gas stations, restaurants, taverns, variety of places.

[01:27:20] And I will say this.

[01:27:21] Brad Webber had seemed very irritated with Baldwin at the last thing where he appeared.

[01:27:27] He was very calm.

[01:27:28] He answered the questions today.

[01:27:30] He really didn't seem to be too flustered or upset about anything.

[01:27:34] So whatever whatever sort of explosions people might have expected did not come.

[01:27:40] He was very calm and I felt respectful.

[01:27:42] And at times he was like, I don't know, like kind of like more baffled of like, you know, I but but generally is that your impression of how he did?

[01:27:50] Yes. And he kept on insisting because Baldwin would talk about all this ATM stuff and then he'd go back.

[01:27:56] Oh, what'd you do that day?

[01:27:58] And Webber would just insist very calmly.

[01:28:01] I went home.

[01:28:01] I went home.

[01:28:02] And I think one thing that at least in my mind gave Webber some credibility there is that this is a very, very precise witness.

[01:28:16] He made it clear that exact words and such mean a lot.

[01:28:20] Oh, yeah.

[01:28:21] Anya mentioned a minute ago, oh, you visited Arizona for a week.

[01:28:25] And he's and he's no, I didn't.

[01:28:27] And he said, well, huh?

[01:28:28] He said, well, I visited just for three days.

[01:28:30] Yes.

[01:28:30] There was a moment, another moment where he says Andy Baldwin said, oh, you had a call with some investigator earlier this year asking you to come down to the police station to talk about something.

[01:28:42] And Webber said, no, that never happened.

[01:28:45] And Baldwin's like taken aback.

[01:28:47] And it turns out that Webber did get a call from an investigator asking him to come down and talk about something.

[01:28:56] But he did not ask him to come literally to the police station.

[01:28:59] I think we've all experienced this for whatever reason.

[01:29:03] You've met someone or maybe you are someone like this who is very, very literal, very, very precise.

[01:29:09] They don't use terms of like metaphors or like similes or whatever.

[01:29:14] It's like everything is very specific, very precise.

[01:29:17] And Brad Webber definitely comes across that way where he's he's going to tell you, no, that's not true.

[01:29:23] Here's the truth.

[01:29:24] And it's going to be a lot more honed down than whatever.

[01:29:28] So I thought that lent him some credibility.

[01:29:31] It did.

[01:29:32] It certainly did.

[01:29:34] He talked about how he does not recall telling law enforcement anything different other than the fact that he just went home.

[01:29:41] And he stressed that what happened was he got home that day on February 13, 2017, probably around 2.30ish.

[01:29:50] He said he likely smoked a cigarette and then took a nap.

[01:29:54] And then he was awakened by someone from law enforcement knocking on his door around 5, 5.30ish to ask that the law enforcement officer sheriff was asking for permission to search his property for the girls, which Webber agreed to.

[01:30:12] And of course, that sheriff's deputy testified earlier in the trial.

[01:30:17] So Baldwin made a big deal at one point of like.

[01:30:20] I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I just you mentioned the search, the property.

[01:30:25] Did you give them permission to look at your outbuildings, almost implying that Webber hadn't?

[01:30:31] But then it turned out later that nobody had asked him until later.

[01:30:34] And then when they did, he said yes and also let them look at his whole house.

[01:30:38] So he gave them permission.

[01:30:39] He didn't.

[01:30:40] He just didn't give them the permission on the 13th because they hadn't yet asked.

[01:30:43] But I feel like Baldwin was trying to act like, oh, my God, it was suspicious.

[01:30:46] Was something going on in the outbuildings?

[01:30:48] But just nobody had asked him.

[01:30:50] And he yeah.

[01:30:51] And he gave them permission to search his house and he gave them permission to search his outbuilding.

[01:30:57] He gave them his gun.

[01:30:59] He apparently he said he talked to them almost every day there for a while.

[01:31:04] And frankly, that's what you would expect and hope that someone who lives so close to where the girls were discovered.

[01:31:11] You would imagine that law enforcement would want to take a hard look at them and appears they did indeed.

[01:31:18] He seems incredibly cooperative with this investigation.

[01:31:20] He did not get offended.

[01:31:22] So you think it's me or from what we heard?

[01:31:24] Like it was just like, look at like clear me by any means and then move on.

[01:31:30] And I will give you access to everything without complaint.

[01:31:34] That bolstered his credibility with me.

[01:31:36] He seemed like a man who had nothing to hide.

[01:31:39] He did.

[01:31:39] He did acknowledge that at times he's gotten mad at trespassers who've come on this property and has confronted them.

[01:31:45] But I mean, he didn't seem to have any problem acknowledging that.

[01:31:49] No.

[01:31:51] So then Nick McClellan does the cross-examination and he says, oh, wouldn't you agree that a person's memory of an event is better closer to the event?

[01:32:03] So my birthday is on December 6th.

[01:32:07] If you ask me what I did for my birthday, I'd probably be able to give you a really great account on December 7th, maybe even December 14th.

[01:32:16] Maybe if you ask me on June 6th, I probably won't remember quite as much.

[01:32:20] And so it turns out that Weber actually gave a statement to police prior to this statement he allegedly gave to Goatee and Paul.

[01:32:35] And which was on that one was supposed to be on February 19th.

[01:32:39] He gave a statement also on February 17th.

[01:32:42] And in that statement, he said he came straight home from work.

[01:32:48] And yeah, and you're talking about him being cooperative.

[01:32:52] They said it also came out that he even agreed to take a lie detector test.

[01:32:57] Which, yeah, I mean, when we see Richard Allen and his little videos, we see a guy won't let them look at his phone, doesn't want them at his house.

[01:33:06] I presume did not do a polygraph.

[01:33:08] All of that says right, I'm not saying you should do any of that, but there is a contrast there.

[01:33:14] Yes.

[01:33:14] And I felt like Baldwin didn't really, when Weber was on the stand, didn't really do the full, like he had been kind of almost implying that Weber might be the killer in previous appearances.

[01:33:27] Today, it was more relaxed on Baldwin's part.

[01:33:30] I didn't feel like he was necessarily like, oh, you're the real killer, like on the stand, you know, like trying to have this Perry Mason moment.

[01:33:36] But I feel like.

[01:33:37] That's your second Perry Mason reference.

[01:33:39] Well, I'm just like, that would have been a real, it's a classic Perry Mason staple that you get some other guy to confess on the stand.

[01:33:45] And then that's how you clear your client because the audience wants someone to be guilty.

[01:33:48] They don't want just your guy to walk.

[01:33:50] They want someone to be punished.

[01:33:52] Perry Mason 101.

[01:33:53] But I guess like I felt he toned that down today.

[01:33:57] I don't know whether it was because it would have been too awkward or what, but did you notice that?

[01:34:04] I did in redirect.

[01:34:08] Oh, I will say, can I say one thing?

[01:34:09] Baldwin made a big deal about at one point they, Weber mentioned like, I don't know whether I got called or texted by the police.

[01:34:18] But McClellan made it clear that people sometimes text people out there because they know they'll get it, whereas calls get dropped a lot.

[01:34:25] And that's not always going to be good for calling people out in that area.

[01:34:28] But he at one point referred to like, oh, maybe like, like, like, like, was it Steve Mullen who contacted you?

[01:34:34] I don't know.

[01:34:34] Maybe it was Steve.

[01:34:35] And then Baldwin started sort of.

[01:34:37] Oh, you call him Steve.

[01:34:39] Oh, your friend Steve.

[01:34:41] Steve.

[01:34:42] Steve.

[01:34:43] He's mad about Steve.

[01:34:47] Steve.

[01:34:48] Also, Baldwin has hilariously adopted one of the jurors verbal tics.

[01:34:53] Where one of the jurors always in her questions writes, if you know.

[01:34:58] And then question.

[01:34:59] And Baldwin now is consistently saying that.

[01:35:02] I think to mirror the juror, presumably.

[01:35:06] So in redirect.

[01:35:09] Andrew Baldwin says, well, you apparently told the police that you drove straight home on the 7th.

[01:35:14] 17th.

[01:35:15] But you told Paul and Gauti something different, didn't you?

[01:35:19] And Weber said, according to you.

[01:35:23] Should we get to the juror?

[01:35:24] Also, the fact that Gauti is not like backing it is also bad for the defense because he came in and was just like, I don't remember.

[01:35:30] Who knows?

[01:35:31] You know, like fog of war when they're all running around to meet, you know, like immediately after the murders.

[01:35:36] That being taped.

[01:35:38] It's really hard to assess because you can also see situations coming up where they're like, what do you normally do when you come home?

[01:35:43] Or he thinks they're asking that and they're actually asking, what did you do that day?

[01:35:46] Like, like without a without a tape, it's hard to say.

[01:35:50] And if he's in repeat in other in like most of the other things consistently saying one thing and then that's an outlier.

[01:35:58] You know, I think the jury should pay attention to the outlier.

[01:36:01] But if he's basically like, I don't think I said that.

[01:36:04] That's not what happened.

[01:36:05] Then that's obviously compelling to.

[01:36:07] The jury wanted to know more about the business of ATMs.

[01:36:13] The first question was, would ATMs have photos of when you service them?

[01:36:18] Actually, that's a very relevant thing, because if there was a photo of Brad Webber servicing an ATM at 230 on February 13th, 2017, it would blow a story out of the water.

[01:36:30] But apparently no such photos exist.

[01:36:31] He said that some of the places might have had videos like a gas station, but that like the ATMs don't have like some sort of internal video that he had.

[01:36:40] Another question was when you need to replace cash in an ATM, you have to order it from a bank, which he explained earlier.

[01:36:48] And you would get it from regions.

[01:36:50] Shout out to regions, I guess.

[01:36:52] How far in advance do you need to order cash for the ATMs?

[01:36:55] Well, the problem isn't cash.

[01:36:57] See, this is how literal he is.

[01:36:58] He was like, cash, you don't have to worry about cash.

[01:37:01] Coins, now that's the problem.

[01:37:03] And then I thought he wasn't, I was worried for a second he wasn't going to elaborate on that.

[01:37:07] But he said he would often order them a week out.

[01:37:11] Which seems like, this seems like an ATM tune-up cash coin refurbishment situation would not have been done on the fly.

[01:37:25] Yeah.

[01:37:25] He told us so much.

[01:37:27] He told us so much.

[01:37:29] I feel that you and I could, and maybe we should, after this week, we should hang up our podcasting hats and go into a mom and pop ATM business with Brad Weber.

[01:37:40] No.

[01:37:40] Oh, my God.

[01:37:42] He explained it all so clearly.

[01:37:44] Well, he also said that he used to have maybe 35 in estimate and now he only has 15.

[01:37:48] So maybe it's not as easy a business as...

[01:37:52] Well, I guess now that I think about it, people don't use cash as much.

[01:37:55] They use cards now.

[01:37:57] Yes.

[01:37:57] So maybe this ATM business isn't all as cracked up.

[01:37:59] It doesn't sound like it.

[01:38:01] But yeah, geez.

[01:38:02] Also, he wouldn't, in fairness, only have to go replace.

[01:38:05] He said basically the things he'd have to replace are the coins, the money in there.

[01:38:09] He, no, no, let me tell you.

[01:38:11] Well, let's stop.

[01:38:11] Let's stop.

[01:38:11] No, I'm not stopping.

[01:38:12] They need to hear this.

[01:38:13] No.

[01:38:14] So he put money in.

[01:38:15] The clients take the money out.

[01:38:17] He gets a surcharge.

[01:38:18] But the other thing he'd be replacing is the tape for the receipts.

[01:38:21] And at one point, Baldwin was like, well, if there's no money in there, then you don't get paid.

[01:38:25] And he's like, yes.

[01:38:26] And if there's no receipt tape, you don't get paid.

[01:38:28] And he's like, I don't care about that.

[01:38:30] I feel we have blundered into this ATM rabbit hole and we need to climb out of it.

[01:38:36] I'm just trying to educate and just kind of enlighten.

[01:38:40] Learned a lot about ATMs today.

[01:38:42] So another question.

[01:38:43] We know that Brad Weber clocked out at work at 2.02.

[01:38:47] So a juror said, well, what is the process of clocking out?

[01:38:50] Imagine if there's some long process where he has to do a bunch of stuff, then that could be like, well, you know.

[01:38:56] So basically it's like similar to getting on a subway.

[01:39:00] There's a turnstile and he has a badge and he just puts the badge in.

[01:39:05] Turnstile opens.

[01:39:06] And then was the driveway he used, the access road under the bridge?

[01:39:12] Would that have been the one he used that day?

[01:39:15] And he indicated or was there another one to use?

[01:39:19] And he said, yes.

[01:39:20] And have you ever used that?

[01:39:21] Yes.

[01:39:22] So there's two ways onto his property.

[01:39:25] One's the access road and the other is another one.

[01:39:27] And then would you have driven under the high bridge that day?

[01:39:31] I would have.

[01:39:32] Yes.

[01:39:33] And then would you typically go home from work pretty much immediately?

[01:39:41] I think he said yes, right?

[01:39:44] Yeah.

[01:39:45] No further witnesses today.

[01:39:46] The defense ran out of witnesses.

[01:39:48] The defense ran out of witnesses, which is another reason.

[01:39:51] And I think we're in the last days of this trial.

[01:39:54] Yeah.

[01:39:54] They ran out of witnesses.

[01:39:56] They, you know, they made some good points today.

[01:40:00] I think they had some good one good one good witness.

[01:40:04] And I guess the family saying that, you know, vouching for Allen is also good for them.

[01:40:09] But don't stop listening because the defense wasn't done yet.

[01:40:13] So the jury is dismissed for the day.

[01:40:16] And then Andy Baldwin stands up and says, since the jury is out of here, let's have some offers of proof.

[01:40:24] He said earlier in the day, Kevin Murphy from the Indiana State Police or retired from the Indiana State Police.

[01:40:31] I had seen in the rotunda a few times.

[01:40:34] I kind of like that Kevin Murphy.

[01:40:35] And they're like no one's answering.

[01:40:36] I'm like, I'm pretty sure that's Kevin Murphy.

[01:40:38] It was indeed Kevin Murphy.

[01:40:39] He was one of the investigators who was responsible for really developing and working the Odinism lead.

[01:40:49] And try as he and his associates could, they were never able to develop a probable cause sufficiently to lead to the arrest of anyone connected with Odinism for any crimes connected with the death of Abby and Libby.

[01:41:07] And that's because apparently no such evidence existed.

[01:41:10] They tried.

[01:41:11] They worked it.

[01:41:12] They couldn't find enough information.

[01:41:14] I mean, they didn't even get to probable cause.

[01:41:16] That's what I'm saying.

[01:41:17] They did not get to probable cause.

[01:41:19] So he was there today to offer an offer of proof.

[01:41:25] But apparently he left before this point.

[01:41:28] Wait, he left?

[01:41:29] Well, didn't they say he was no longer available or maybe?

[01:41:32] I don't know.

[01:41:32] Maybe McClellan.

[01:41:33] Well, he wasn't there.

[01:41:35] Well, they didn't call him in at least.

[01:41:36] They didn't call him in.

[01:41:37] And what he was going to say in his offer of proof was that, so this investigation was being run by people who represented several different agencies.

[01:41:51] And the leaders of the investigation from all those agencies together were called the Unified Command.

[01:41:57] Yes.

[01:41:57] And so he wanted to do an offer of proof and tell the court that he believed that Unified Command always believed that two or more people were involved.

[01:42:10] And it may be five or six.

[01:42:11] Yes.

[01:42:13] That he believed this is what Unified Command believed.

[01:42:17] And McClellan objected and said Kevin Murphy was not a part of Unified Command.

[01:42:21] So any of his beliefs about what Unified Command believed would be just speculative.

[01:42:28] Yeah.

[01:42:29] Yeah.

[01:42:29] Well, so I mean, one thing that's been made pretty clear by the investigators who have been interviewed or have testified so far is that at various times everyone was very much open to it being at least two people.

[01:42:42] It didn't sound like, I mean, it's not like some big secret, like, oh my gosh.

[01:42:49] Like, do you know what I mean?

[01:42:50] Like, it's sort of like they have to go where the evidence goes.

[01:42:53] So if they kind of get the vibe, it's maybe more than one person.

[01:42:57] That's fine.

[01:42:58] But ultimately, you know, they have to be able to, I don't know, have evidence and prove things.

[01:43:04] Like, I guess it's just like, I don't know.

[01:43:08] This whole thing is just like, what do you make of this?

[01:43:15] They've said like, like all of them have said like, well, yeah, at times we were like, maybe it's more than one person.

[01:43:19] And then we found evidence on one person and he confessed to doing it alone.

[01:43:23] And that kind of wrapped it up.

[01:43:28] Having Kevin Murphy be like, yeah, every time I came in, they'd say it was, you know, 14 people.

[01:43:32] It just, it's like, I don't know.

[01:43:34] It's silly.

[01:43:35] It doesn't add anything.

[01:43:37] It was a waste of time.

[01:43:38] But Andy Baldwin wasn't done yet.

[01:43:42] As you all may or may not remember, there's this anecdote where Elvis Fields.

[01:43:50] Asked Kevin Murphy.

[01:43:52] So he gave his saliva to Kevin Murphy, right?

[01:43:55] Yes.

[01:43:56] Then he asked Kevin Murphy, if my spit ended up on the girls and I had a good reason for it, would I be in trouble?

[01:44:04] And so Andrew Baldwin said, hey, Judge, I have a really cool idea.

[01:44:09] Why don't I get Jerry Holman, who was one of the lead investigators on this case?

[01:44:13] I'll get him on the stand and I'll say, Holman, if Richard Allen made that comment about spit, would you be using that as evidence in this case?

[01:44:24] And he said, after that, I may ask about some of the evidence against Brad Holder and the others.

[01:44:30] I may say, if that evidence existed against Richard Allen, would you, Jerry Holman, the investigator, use that as evidence against Richard Allen?

[01:44:38] And McClellan, McClellan, I think, symbolically must have slapped his forehead.

[01:44:46] He didn't actually do that, but I kind of felt that.

[01:44:49] And he said, the evidence against Elvis Fields was not enough to charge Elvis Fields.

[01:44:55] Like this spit thing, that's not enough to charge him.

[01:44:57] Someone saying some weird, disturbing stuff is not enough.

[01:45:01] And also, don't forget, he brought in Brad Holder's, the stick picture on his Facebook.

[01:45:06] Yeah, all that stuff.

[01:45:06] He said, this evidence was not enough to bring charges against Elvis Fields.

[01:45:12] But it's a completely different kettle of fish with Richard Allen.

[01:45:16] If that was the only evidence against Richard Allen, no, it wouldn't have been used in court because there were no charges against him.

[01:45:21] Yeah, he would have been charged.

[01:45:22] But now we have a situation where there's a bunch of other evidence against Richard Allen.

[01:45:26] And if this other evidence also existed, well, maybe it would be brought in.

[01:45:30] Maybe it wouldn't.

[01:45:30] But it's all speculative.

[01:45:32] And by the way, Lieutenant Holman is a gifted investigator, but he's not the prosecutor.

[01:45:38] And that's the decision a prosecutor would make.

[01:45:42] I love Judge.

[01:45:42] Did you write down Judge Gull's quote on this?

[01:45:45] I didn't because I was trying to get out of there.

[01:45:48] She made a comment about how.

[01:45:50] Like, Jerry Holman stays in his lane.

[01:45:53] Like, he's not.

[01:45:54] You can't bring McClelland up here and ask him why he didn't charge Fields.

[01:45:59] So you're not going to do that with Holman.

[01:46:00] It's not Holman's decision.

[01:46:02] He's staying in his lane.

[01:46:04] And Baldwin started talking about how he believed there was evidence against these other people worthy of bringing charges against them.

[01:46:13] She said, you misunderstand me, Mr. Baldwin.

[01:46:15] Like, there's no nexus.

[01:46:17] She said, we've had this discussion a thousand times.

[01:46:20] Yeah, we have.

[01:46:21] That's what I wrote down.

[01:46:22] We have had this discussion a thousand times.

[01:46:25] It feels like it.

[01:46:25] Maybe more.

[01:46:27] And I think we're approaching the end of the trial.

[01:46:29] So I do not think we will have the discussion another thousand times.

[01:46:33] Well, I hope not because it's a stupid discussion.

[01:46:35] And, you know, like, I mean, if they really came into this thing hoping that, like, somehow, like, they'd really impress Judge Gull so much that she'd change her mind on Odinism.

[01:46:48] You know, and for all the people who send us angry emails, why does the judge get to decide?

[01:46:52] It's the same rule that prevents the defense from just accusing you randomly of the crime.

[01:46:56] They have to have they have to reach a threshold in order to bring it in.

[01:47:00] OK, it's a court.

[01:47:01] It's not like just a it's not a YouTube comment section.

[01:47:04] And so, like, having a situation, you can't just bring in random people.

[01:47:08] OK, you have to have a nexus.

[01:47:10] It has to it has to link up.

[01:47:12] They couldn't even get to probable cause with these guys, despite, you know, these investigators seemingly being very emotionally invested in doing so, which I think should raise concerns about, like.

[01:47:24] Tunnel vision, perhaps, you know, which which, again, like doesn't seem to have affected Unified Command, given that they like waited seven years and like looked at all these other people in the meantime.

[01:47:34] So, like, there's a problem there.

[01:47:37] And I don't even know where I was going with this.

[01:47:39] It's just like.

[01:47:41] Oh, here's what I was saying.

[01:47:42] If they were hoping that Judge Gall would suddenly randomly change her mind on this and that they were just going to roll the dice and go for that, then they have done their client a serious disservice.

[01:47:53] Because that was never going to happen.

[01:47:56] Odinism fell apart in that three day hearing.

[01:47:59] We witnessed it.

[01:48:01] We told you about it.

[01:48:03] It was not like stop trying to make Odinism happen.

[01:48:07] Like they.

[01:48:08] And if they knew that, I mean, like, just get another theory then or maybe just do a, you know, maybe a more workmanlike, but perhaps more effective, some might argue, attempt to knock down the state's case.

[01:48:23] Point out all the mistakes and hope for the best.

[01:48:28] You know, it's like they were so desperate to have like a fun, interesting narrative of like a sacrifice and like lurid things from like a 1940s pulp magazine that they didn't stop to ask themselves.

[01:48:42] Like anything else about strategy here.

[01:48:46] And I just don't understand that.

[01:48:48] It's not effective.

[01:48:49] I've been disappointed with their performance so far.

[01:48:52] There's been a couple of bright spots here and there that we try to highlight, desperately try to find and highlight for you.

[01:48:58] But like it's been.

[01:49:01] It's been rough to watch, frankly.

[01:49:05] It's been surprisingly bad, I guess, to be blunt.

[01:49:10] And.

[01:49:10] And I don't know what I mean they have.

[01:49:12] I'm assuming they have the bullet.

[01:49:14] They're going to have a bullet expert.

[01:49:15] I'm assuming they're going to have.

[01:49:19] Maybe a phone expert, maybe bring back Holman and ask what his lane is and bring back Mullen and beat him up and liggett and whatnot.

[01:49:29] I'm sure there'll be more of that, but.

[01:49:31] I don't know.

[01:49:33] I don't as far as I see it, they've not really dislodged the.

[01:49:37] The important and pertinent stuff that the prosecution has put out there so far.

[01:49:42] Yeah.

[01:49:43] And they're going to need to.

[01:49:44] They're going to need to.

[01:49:47] So we're going to do our best to get in tomorrow for morning and afternoon.

[01:49:52] No guarantees.

[01:49:53] No guarantees.

[01:49:55] Meanwhile, thank you so much for continuing to put up with us and listen to these episodes.

[01:50:01] I know we're putting out a lot of content.

[01:50:03] Thanks, everybody.

[01:50:04] We appreciate you.

[01:50:05] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[01:50:08] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

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[01:51:20] Thanks again for listening.

[01:51:23] Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[01:51:27] Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[01:51:35] This show is phenomenal.

[01:51:37] Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being, like he does it all.

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[01:51:50] He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space, just interesting people with interesting life experiences.

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[01:52:26] Because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

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[01:52:36] Yes.

[01:52:37] He's been a really good friend to us.

[01:52:39] And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

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[01:52:49] We really recommend it highly.

[01:52:51] Yeah.

[01:52:51] I think our audience will like it.

[01:52:53] And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[01:52:56] He's been on our show a couple times.

[01:52:57] We've been on his show.

[01:52:58] He's a terrific guest.

[01:53:00] I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this.

[01:53:05] That really resonated.

[01:53:06] Like I do quote him in a conversation sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[01:53:12] She quotes him to me all the time.

[01:53:13] I do.

[01:53:13] I'm like, I remember when Jason said this.

[01:53:15] That was so right.

[01:53:15] So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think and you like us, I think you should give it a shot.

[01:53:20] Give it a try.

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[01:53:22] And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.

[01:53:33] There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice.

[01:53:39] And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[01:53:44] But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime, I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[01:53:55] It's compassionate.

[01:53:57] It's affirming.

[01:53:58] But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[01:54:02] People – Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[01:54:07] This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[01:54:10] I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[01:54:12] Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

[01:54:14] So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[01:54:16] We're fans of the show.

[01:54:17] We love it.

[01:54:18] And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.

[01:54:21] Download some episodes.

[01:54:22] Listen.

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[01:54:25] But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:54:30] Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:54:31] Very easy to find.

[01:54:32] Absolutely.